London Euston [EUS] to Telford Central [TFC]

[penaltyfines]

I'm having some weird prices come up for this route, I'm travelling out on Monday and returning on Thursday next week but lets assume it's single for now (but the SVH ticket is OK).

I'm currently seeing the following cheapest tickets on virgintrains.co.uk for the outbound leg with a YNG railcard:

06:03 EUS > 07:13 BHI (Virgin Trains)
08:09 BHI > 08:59 TFC (Arriva Trains Wales)
SVH Off-Peak @ £15.80

06:43 EUS > 08:08 BHM (Virgin Trains)
08:24 BHM > 08:59 TFC (Arriva Trains Wales)
SOS Anytime @ £55.75


A few questions spring to mind:

(a) The restriction text for the SVH only mentions departures from EUS, which being VT means I can use it during peak by virtue of my railcard. Does that mean I can use it into ANY operator's 'peak' connecting train to the destination because the station which I interchange at isn't listed in the restrictions?

(b) Why, by getting a later train out of EUS (which is still valid with the SVH ticket) but still taking the same Arriva train to TFC, does the ticket need to be an Anytime ticket? The only difference is I'm changing at BHM instead of BHI, is this because of some anomaly regarding peak restrictions at those stations?

(c) Assuming I DO need to change at BHI and not continue to BHM (not sure it would be noticed on the ATW train!), why couldn't I therefore do the following on a SVH ticket?

06:43 EUS > 07:53 BHI (Virgin Trains)
08:09 BHI > 08:59 TFC (Arriva Trains Wales)

The only difference between this and the 06:03 SVH route advertised on the VT site (i.e. the first one above) is that I'm taking a later VT service out of EUS, so surely this is OK?

(d) Assuming it is OK then, why wasn't it advertised on the VT journey planner?

(e) And again on that assumption, WHY is NRE showing that exact 06:43 itinerary as requiring a SOS ticket - i.e. the SVH isn't valid?!


I can only assume the 06:03 itinerary with the SVH ticket is a bug in the VT website!

Help?!

Thanks,

 

[bnsf734]

I've just put the journey on the London Midland website.

This gives the following journey at a fare of £14.20 (Advance single) with YP Railcard

London Euston dep 06:23VT

Birmingham New Street arr 07:45
Train continues to Wolverhampton

Birmingham New Street dep 08:05LM
Telford arr 08:51
Train continues to Shrewsbury

It does not mention the 06:03 departure or give any fares for any other trains apart from first class ones!

Calv

 

[LexyBoy]

(a) The restriction text for the SVH only mentions departures from EUS, which being VT means I can use it during peak by virtue of my railcard. Does that mean I can use it into ANY operator's 'peak' connecting train to the destination because the station which I interchange at isn't listed in the restrictions?

You can't use it during the peak any more; the easement only applies to journeys entirely on VT (technically).

More generally, if you're getting a train from a station not mentioned, and that service doesn't leave/arrive somewhere mentioned in the restrictions during its whole route, it's not restricted at all.

(b) Why, by getting a later train out of EUS (which is still valid with the SVH ticket) but still taking the same Arriva train to TFC, does the ticket need to be an Anytime ticket? The only difference is I'm changing at BHM instead of BHI, is this because of some anomaly regarding peak restrictions at those stations?

Good question, I'd imagine it's a bug in the JP which allows you to use a SVH on the first leg when it should be an Anytime. I guess the SVH has restriction 9I which doesn't have a "before 0630" (or whenever) as some tickets do for leaving EUS.

(c) Assuming I DO need to change at BHI and not continue to BHM (not sure it would be noticed on the ATW train!), why couldn't I therefore do the following on a SVH ticket?

06:43 EUS > 07:53 BHI (Virgin Trains)
08:09 BHI > 08:59 TFC (Arriva Trains Wales)

The only difference between this and the 06:03 SVH route advertised on the VT site (i.e. the first one above) is that I'm taking a later VT service out of EUS, so surely this is OK?

(d) Assuming it is OK then, why wasn't it advertised on the VT journey planner?

No idea; National Rail shows a change at BHI as you'd expect. Validity would be the same either way.

(e) And again on that assumption, WHY is NRE showing that exact 06:43 itinerary as requiring a SOS ticket - i.e. the SVH isn't valid?!

An SOS would be the correct ticket. Also, I don't think NRE can deal with SVH tickets as they are a wierd and wacky Virgin concoction.

I can only assume the 06:03 itinerary with the SVH ticket is a bug in the VT website!

Probably - if you can book it though it should be accepted on your reserved trains.

Alternatively, split at Wolverhampton or Birmingham International and your YP railcard will allow travel on peak time Virgin trains since all travel (on the WVH/BHI-EUS ticket) will be with VT. The split might cost slightly more than a through ticket though.

 

[SS4]

The 06:03 EUS-BHM is an off peak service according to Virgin's documentation.

I suspect you're changing at BHM because the ATW service probably waits there for a bit making the connection time easier.

 

[penaltyfines]

You can't use it during the peak any more; the easement only applies to journeys entirely on VT (technically).

What does this mean?

I can use this on the Virgin train at any time.

What restricts me from using it on non-Virgin trains at any time, other than the restriction code against the ticket, which doesn't mention anything about trains to Telford or trains from Birmingham?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 06:03 EUS-BHM is an off peak service according to Virgin's documentation.

I suspect you're changing at BHM because the ATW service probably waits there for a bit making the connection time easier.

I'm completely confused. All trains on Virgin are off peak for me, as I have a railcard!

So why would the 6:43 be any different?

 

[LexyBoy]

The official easement is:

Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior, Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards and New Deal Photocards, can travel on Virgin Train services at any time, provided that all travel is on Virgin Trains services only. (This easement is not permitted for travel between Milton Keynes Central and London Euston).

The usual arguments about how it is publicised apply of course; if signs/announcements at EUS just refer to Railcard discounted Off Peak tickets, then it could be argued that your ticket should be accepted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 06:03 EUS-BHM is an off peak service according to Virgin's documentation.

Do you mean according to their colour coded timetable? Does this mean that Virgin's website is consulting some list of "peak and off peak services" rather than the ticket's restriction code (which in this case would prohibit the 0603 I think)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I suspect you're changing at BHM because the ATW service probably waits there for a bit making the connection time easier.

14 mins at BHI versus 16 mins at BHM. As long as it's over the minimum connection time, I don't think there is a preference for longer transfers - in fact I thought most journey planners would avoid changing at BHM if possible?

 

[SS4]

The official easement is:



The usual arguments about how it is publicised apply of course; if signs/announcements at EUS just refer to Railcard discounted Off Peak tickets, then it could be argued that your ticket should be accepted.

The new easements confuse me, I must admit

Do you mean according to their colour coded timetable? Does this mean that Virgin's website is consulting some list of "peak and off peak services" rather than the ticket's restriction code (which in this case would prohibit the 0603 I think)?

It says on their list of first valid trains (link)

*Off-Peak tickets also VALID on the 0603 service to Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham
International and Birmingham New Street.

The departure boards at EUS treat it like a normal off-peak train too

I don't have Avantix installed on here and cannot find the ticket code.

14 mins at BHI versus 16 mins at BHM. As long as it's over the minimum connection time, I don't think there is a preference for longer transfers - in fact I thought most journey planners would avoid changing at BHM if possible?

True although I don't know how wise journey planners are though

 

[LexyBoy]

It says on their list of first valid trains (link)

ಠ_ಠ ... nice generalisations on when Off Peak tickets are valid there.

But yes, it is valid (the linked PDF doesn't include Telford, but the restrictions are the same for Birmingham). There is an easement hidden in the restrction text (9I) allowing the 0603, which I missed the first time.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Yes that seems to be it. The railcard easement is not valid for the SVH, only SVS/SVR - so the SVH (whether railcard-discounted or not) can only be used on trains that are allowed by restriction 9I. And it has a footnote stating:

Travel is permitted on the
0603 Euston to Birmingham New
St. and both the 0500 & 0524
Wolverhampton to Euston.

 

[penaltyfines]

OK, so the railcard easement doesn't apply to a SVH, but as I'm getting a SVH as well for the return I will buy a SVR instead, so that point is moot.

But that still doesn't explain why the SVH is valid on the 6:03 departure, connecting into the ATW train?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Remember that restrictions apply to tickets, not trains. The fact that travel from BHM to TFC on the train would not be permitted on a BHM to TFC off-peak return has no relation to whether travel on the same train is permitted on a EUS to TFC off-peak return (which it is, as correctly shown by the booking engine).

Edit: The railcard discount (i.e. 34% off) does apply to the SVH. It's the railcard easement (i.e. travel on trains which would normally be restricted) which doesn't apply to the SVH. Restriction 9I applies. This is the same restriction that applies to people without a railcard travelling on SVS/SVR tickets. And restriction 9I specifically states that travel is allowed on the 06:03 Euston to Birmingham service.

Further edit: A separate issue is that the railcard easement technically no longer (since last month) applies unless the entire journey is on Virgin. However Virgin's own website does not enforce this change yet (but some others do). I did not mention this above as it would over-complicate things even more...

 

[penaltyfines]

So this is a bug that allows further travel on the SVH on another TOC's service when the easement doesn't apply to them, basically?

 

[Greenback]

I'm a bit confused here to be honest!

Is an SVH limited to Virgin Trains only? What is the easement you mention?

 

[LexyBoy]

So this is a bug that allows further travel on the SVH on another TOC's service when the easement doesn't apply to them, basically?

No. There is no bug it would appear.

The 0603 departure is valid on an Off Peak (SVR or SVH) ticket from EUS to TFC, railcard or no. There is no restriction on the connecting service from BHI or BHM.

 

[Paul Kelly]

So this is a bug that allows further travel on the SVH on another TOC's service when the easement doesn't apply to them, basically?

No! I know I shouldn't have mentioned the change to rhe railcard easement that as it was only going to cause more confusion! Restriction 9I which applies to Euston to the Telford off-peak return (SVR), off-peak single (SVS) and saver half (SVH) has no restrictions on the Birmingham to Telford leg. You can use any train you want for that part.

For Euston to Birmingham you can use either the 0603 service, any service between 0926 and 1500, or any service after 1845. For Birmingham to Telford you can use any service at all.

Now the old virgin ralicard easement, which is still applied by the Virgin Trains website said:

Holders of Off-Peak ticket types SVS/SVR, which are discounted using 16-25, Senior, Disabled Persons, HM Forces and Family & Friends Railcards, New Deal Photocards and Inter-Rail (Code 70) Cards, may use ANY Virgin_train service, provided that the route on the ticket is not "Virgin Trains Only" and the journey being made is priced by Virgin Trains. If the journey is not priced by Virgin Trains then the stated Off-Peak restictions apply.

This means that if you have a railcard and a SVS/SVR ticket type (but not SVH), the above-mentioned restrictions on the trains you may use for the Euston-Birmingham leg of the journey are relaxed, and you may use all trains before 0926 and between 1500 and 1845 if you wish. Note that this has no effect on the Birmingham to Telford leg, which is always completely unrestricted no matter if you have a railcard or not!

 

[SS4]

I'm a bit confused here to be honest!

Is an SVH limited to Virgin Trains only?

Yes, the SVH is a saver half return and is a single journey at half the price of an off peak return (SVR). However, it can only be as part of a return (one would buy an Advance out and a Saver Half back for example0
What is the easement you mention?[/QUOTE]

 

[penaltyfines]

This means that if you have a railcard and a SVS/SVR ticket type (but not SVH), the above-mentioned restrictions on the trains you may use for the Euston-Birmingham leg of the journey are relaxed, and you may use all trains before 0926 and between 1500 and 1845 if you wish. Note that this has no effect on the Birmingham to Telford leg, which is always completely unrestricted no matter if you have a railcard or not!

I understand now.

So based on the current restrictions listed on the VT website, I can do this:

06:43 EUS > 07:53 BHI (Virgin Trains)
08:09 BHI > 08:59 TFC (Arriva Trains Wales)

or change at BHM instead of BHI, with a SVR

 

[LexyBoy]

I'm a bit confused here to be honest!

Is an SVH limited to Virgin Trains only? What is the easement you mention?

The SVH is a fare introduced by VT to be sold only in conjunction with an AP ticket, allowing customers to have flexibility in one direction and a cheap AP in the other.

They are essentially the same as a SVS but priced at half the price of a SVR, and I think routed accordingly (i.e. not VT Only).

The "easement" being discussed is Virgin's policy of allowing holders of railcard discounted Off Peak (SVR/SVS) tickets to travel on any Virgin service (subject to certain provisos).

 

[Paul Kelly]

So based on the current restrictions listed on the VT website, I can do this:

06:43 EUS > 07:53 BHI (Virgin Trains)
08:09 BHI > 08:59 TFC (Arriva Trains Wales)

or change at BHM instead of BHI, with a SVR

Correct. And the less said about the changes to the Virgin railcard easement the better I think! Let's just hope they quietly go away

 

[LexyBoy]

I understand now.

So based on the current restrictions listed on the VT website, I can do this:

06:43 EUS > 07:53 BHI (Virgin Trains)
08:09 BHI > 08:59 TFC (Arriva Trains Wales)

or change at BHM instead of BHI, with a SVR

You should be fine doing that.

I'd advise printing off the relevant page from Virgin's website just in case you get queried - the guard may have had a briefing with the new terms (under which your ticket would not be valid on the 0643 service), even though Virgin are advertising different conditions.

 

[Greenback]

The SVH is a fare introduced by VT to be sold only in conjunction with an AP ticket, allowing customers to have flexibility in one direction and a cheap AP in the other.

They are essentially the same as a SVS but priced at half the price of a SVR, and I think routed accordingly (i.e. not VT Only).

I was aware of that. What confused me was why it seemed to be available in conjunction the other ticket in the OP, and why it would not be valid to Telford!.

The "easement" being discussed is Virgin's policy of allowing holders of railcard discounted Off Peak (SVR/SVS) tickets to travel on any Virgin service (subject to certain provisos).

Right. Thanks! This seems to have caused a lot of confusion and consternation since they altered the policy, but having no railcard, I haven't read that much tbh!

 

[island]

Is an SVH limited to Virgin Trains only? What is the easement you mention?

An SVH can be used on any TOC that the corresponding SVS could be used on. When printed they are indistinguishable from each other besides the price. You may choose not to use the SVH on Virgin at all (e.g. an SVH from London Terminals to Glasgow Cen/Qst can be used on East Coast).

 

[LexyBoy]

I was aware of that. What confused me was why it seemed to be available in conjunction the other ticket in the OP, and why it would not be valid to Telford!.

Yes, I thought you'd have come across them!

OP doesn't mention what ticket was selected for the return journey; only the SVH and the SOS offered for the later train. Virgin's website displays "Off Peak Singles" at the SVH price for both legs anyway (for return journeys) - if this is chosen for both outward and return then a SVR will be sold.

A SVH would be valid to Telford, but depending on which version of Virgin's Railcard easement you read it would/wouldn't be valid on Virgin services barred in the restriction text.

 

[Greenback]

It probably didn't help that I misread the OP! I thought it had been offered in conjunction with the Anytime single for the later train. D'oh! Stupid Greenback!

I detest the Virgin website. I don't find it clear at all.

 

[button_boxer]

Euston to the Telford off-peak return (SVR), off-peak single (SVS) and off-peak single (SVH)

There you go, I "simplified" it for you.

Yours (in)sincerely,

ATOC