Coppers

[gnolife]

I was on a Hadfield line train yesterday evening, and on leaving Hattersley a load of coppers turned up shouting at the guard to stop the train. The train emergency-stopped a bit past the end of the platform and reversed back into the station, where a small group were escorted off. Is this a normal thing if coppers want to arrest someone on a train?

 

[bluenoxid]

Not really. They usually try to do it on the sly as it is easier to be waiting for them at the next station. Not usually many places to go once on a moving train.

I assume it is local coppers.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I am interested by this from a historical point of view. What are the exact legal rights of the police to command a slow moving train to stop? I know that there are very old railway by-laws to cover every known eventuality to mankind.

 

[gnolife]

Not really. They usually try to do it on the sly as it is easier to be waiting for them at the next station. Not usually many places to go once on a moving train.

I assume it is local coppers.

I didn't see anything that told me what flavour copper it was, i just saw coppers

 

[deltic1989]

I wouldn't have thought it was really safe to stop a moving train whatever speed it is travelling. I can only assume that the group they escorted off were wanted in their area and the trains next stop was outside their area so they decided to take this action. But my understanding was that only rail staff with the relevent training were allowed to stop trains, could be wrong though. Seems to be becoming a theme for plod to stop trains just lately.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Refusing to stop the train when requested by the police if they wanted to arrest someone could be seen as obstructing an officer in the execution of his duty.

 

[SteamPower]

Not really. They usually try to do it on the sly as it is easier to be waiting for them at the next station. Not usually many places to go once on a moving train.

I assume it is local coppers.

There might not be many places for them to go, but there's still the possible harm they could cause to other passengers if they are of a violent nature

 

[Yew]

Refusing to stop the train when requested by the police if they wanted to arrest someone could be seen as obstructing an officer in the execution of his duty.

On the other hand, demanding a train stops after it has departed, could be seen as interfering with the safe operation of the railways

 

[lookingforit35]

On the other hand, demanding a train stops after it has departed, could be seen as interfering with the safe operation of the railways

Indeed. But then requiring a moving motor vehicle to stop could be seen as endangering public safety. Best we let everyone go if they have acquired a mode of transport.

Let's get real. This is hardly Miami Vice is it? Suspects on train, police require train to stop. Dull story. End of.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Northern have been cracking down on fare evasion and anti social behavior on this line, personally if I felt it was safe I would stop the train in an instant if a copper asked me to do, with the help of BTP/G4 and our revenue protection guys/gals the message is getting across (for how long who knows) Glossop is actually alot worse than Hattersley for Fare Evasion and anto soicial behaviour (even with CCTV).

 

[Ploughman]

Not really. They usually try to do it on the sly as it is easier to be waiting for them at the next station. Not usually many places to go once on a moving train.

I assume it is local coppers.

Also have to think of someone pulling the Emergency handle.
Train stops bodies do a runner.
Or can the driver ignore the emergency call?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

If there is an emergency in the station platform, you stop in the platform. Personally I would treat a police officer asking me to stop under the circumstances described as above in the same was as I would treat a pass comm being pulled. I'd stop.

 

[michael769]

I can only assume that the group they escorted off were wanted in their area and the trains next stop was outside their area so they decided to take this action.

All Police officers carry the Royal Warrant and their powers extend throughout the UK, and they can easily call on other forces to assist, so they have no problems pursing a suspect outwith their force area.

More likely they were concerned that they could enough officers to the next station to be sure of apprehending them, or if the suspects were aware they were being pursued, I guess there could be a risk that they would pull the communication cord and de-train - as serious criminals are likely to be concerned about trespassing on the railway.

The other possibility is that the officers had a little dose of red-mist and just didn't think as far ahead as pulling them off at the next station.

I'm not aware of any police power to stop a train in this manner, but the crew would no doubt be mindeful that one day they may need the police's assistance in a hurry, and thus were happy to do them a favour.

 

[Gathursty]

Was it off to Broadbottom or Godley? If it's the former, it's a bit more of effort to follow to on foot or by car as you have to go out of your way around the woods to get there, so good on the coppers for stopping the train.

 

[IanXC]

All Police officers carry the Royal Warrant and their powers extend throughout the UK, and they can easily call on other forces to assist, so they have no problems pursing a suspect outwith their force area.

Its not quite that simple, specific authority has to be given for territorial officers to operate outside of their legal system, ie England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.

BTP (plus MoD Police and Civil Nuclear Police) interestingly automatically have authority of the local force (on relevant land and in relevant circumstances) as they cross 'borders'.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Its not quite that simple, specific authority has to be given for territorial officers to operate outside of their legal system, ie England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.

BTP (plus MoD Police and Civil Nuclear Police) interestingly automatically have authority of the local force (on relevant land and in relevant circumstances) as they cross 'borders'.

What about the Mersey Tunnel police ?

 

[First class]

What about the Mersey Tunnel police ?

They are allowed a 1 mile radius around the tunnel area to use their powers. Same as Port of Liverpool police last time I checked.

So Mersey Tunnel Police would probably manage to get all of Scotland Rd, most of Walton Rd, James St/Moorfields/Castle St/Dale St, The Strand and around Lime St.

 

[the sniper]

I was on a Hadfield line train yesterday evening, and on leaving Hattersley a load of coppers turned up shouting at the guard to stop the train. The train emergency-stopped a bit past the end of the platform and reversed back into the station, where a small group were escorted off. Is this a normal thing if coppers want to arrest someone on a train?

There isn't really a procedure set out for this I believe, but it's not really in the guards interest not to stop in the circumstances, given that they'll likely then be carrying a ticket-less person suspected of committing an offence, of what degree of dangerousness they won't know. Saying that, HO police do have some funny ways when they find themselves on the railway, and they aren't taught about the importance of delay minutes...

What's more normal is that someone will get onto an intercity service, the local force or local BTP will organise that the person be met at the next station by other local police, the next BTP manned station or the persons destination if known.

 

[es373]

Both arms up in the air to command an emergency stop. If the driver fails to execute then ive known drivers to be pulled off the job, be d&a'ed and write a statement.

 

[scotsman]

Both arms up in the air to command an emergency stop. If the driver fails to execute then ive known drivers to be pulled off the job, be d&a'ed and write a statement.

Well, it's basically a SPAD, isn't it?

 

[the sniper]

Both arms up in the air to command an emergency stop. If the driver fails to execute then ive known drivers to be pulled off the job, be d&a'ed and write a statement.

I was going to say both arms above the head would stop the train, but the OP was talking about the guard, and I believe the rule book only applies the obeying hand signals rule to drivers. I'm sure most guard would react to the signal anyway through common sense.

 

[richw]

unless the driver/ guard knew in advance why the police was stopping the train, how did the driver/ guard know they are not warning of a danger on the line ahead?

 

[185]

The guard was no doubt praising the lord for answering his prayers after a trainload of the ole bill nicked one of Hattersley's finest. I don't think, regardless of the rulebook neither driver or guard would have hesitated for a second to help the police at that stop.

 

[michael769]

Its not quite that simple, specific authority has to be given for territorial officers to operate outside of their legal system, ie England and Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland.

Not true. English constables have full authority in Scotland for offences committed in E&W and vice versa - however they are advised to seek local assistance when operating cross border as they may not be fully familiar with the differences in legal and police procedures, (most significantly the fact that PACE does not apply in Scotland, and the additional requirements of corroboration in Scotland) and this unfamiliarity can lead to them causing problems in prospective prosecutions.

Officers in Northumbria and the Borders sub division of Lothian Borders are given specific training in cross-border legal procedures so that they do not require such assistance when operating cross border.

It is also considered, of course, good manners to notify the local force when carrying out an operation in another.

Take a look at 6.2 and 6.3 of This document for the niceties.

 

[Welshman]

The guard was no doubt praising the lord for answering his prayers after a trainload of the ole bill nicked one of Hattersley's finest.

Then it would be the guard holding up his hands in rapture!

Seriously, though, I trust the train crew obtained the signaller's permission before setting back.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I once had an incident where a suspected armed robber fled and boarded a NLL train off the North Woolwich line towards Stratford.

In those days we paged the train crew to stop and stay outside Stratford LL where the Met Police had a welcoming party in place. (the excuse given over the PA was a points failure) - the train crew were of course safely locked in their cabs. Said miscreant was dealt with.