i think virgin should get the new west coast franchise

[cambsy]

i think Virgin trains should get the new west coast franchise in 2012,as they at least had the vision to improve the west coast,which BR never did,tried but failed with APT,i know it was grossly expensive but it is now a genuine high speed line,normally pretty good service,even done London-Warrington in 98 mins and that was running early,

 

[142094]

You're probably going to get rounded on for saying that! Truth is BR was never given the funding to spend on infrastructure, which is why Railtrack and Network Rail have had to spend vast sums to keep everything maintained and try and improve the network. Plus NR did most of the work - not Virgin.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Plus NR did most of the work - not Virgin.

Quite. Virgin have control over their stations though: half haven't changed since BR's days...

 

[sprinterguy]

British Rail did quite a bit to modernise the West Coast: They electrified it, for a start

I'm in agreement that I would like to see Virgin retain the West Coast franchise. They have developed a strong brand image amongst the public (Witness how many people I have heard referring to Crosscountry Trains services as "Virgin") that is much more far reaching than just within the rail industry thanks to their parent company, and they offer a good level of service. If it ain't broke, don't try and fix it!

 

[142094]

I'm in agreement that I would like to see Virgin retain the West Coast franchise. They have developed a strong brand image amongst the public (Witness how many people I have heard referring to Crosscountry Trains services as "Virgin") that is much more far reaching than just within the rail industry thanks to their parent company, and they offer a good level of service. If it ain't broke, don't try and fix it!

Still hear people refer to GNER!

I don't travel too often with Virgin but I don't particularly like their stock, which is a seperate issue. Therefore I'd rather they stay put on the West Coast and not bid for the East Coast.

 

[yorkie]

i think Virgin trains should get the new west coast franchise in 2012,as they at least had the vision to improve the west coast

I thought it was NR that did it? And it was a shambles, but that's really nothing to do with VT!

which BR never did,

Really? I think you'll find they did, and at the end of BR they were looking at the "InterCity 250" project, but they then had to prepare for privatisation so the project got cancelled.

tried but failed with APT,

So Virgin are better than BR because Virgin bought an almost off-the-shelf product from Italy, while BR actually developed much of the technology at a time when it didn't previously exist? I don't follow the logic!

i know it was grossly expensive but it is now a genuine high speed line

It was, and that's debatable, but what has this to do with the franchise bids?!

normally pretty good service,even done London-Warrington in 98 mins and that was running early,

I'm sure the other bidders will be able to promise similar journey times... in fact, they'll have to, as the timetable is set by the DfT!

 

[graham43404]

I don't travel too often with Virgin but I don't particularly like their stock, which is a seperate issue. Therefore I'd rather they stay put on the West Coast and not bid for the East Coast.

Totally agree with that. We travel over to Leeds to go on East Coast and its HST's and Mallards. My wife is not a train fan as such, just someone who likes a train ride, but she hates Pendolinos and Voyagers.

Besides the toilet smell on Virgin we have found the trains to be non too clean, seat trays in need of a good wipe even on that trains first journey of the day. We have found first class at weekend to be very hit and miss, half the time no service and just told to go down to the shop for a cup of tea and biscuits.

Contrast that with East Coast who we find most of the time have clean trains and good service and we are more than happy to travel over to Leeds to avoid Virgin.

Finally at least on East Coast you can go to the loo without taking your life into your own hands as you do on Virgin when the Pendo goes full tilt

 

[YorkshireBear]

I dont think i can add an awful lot to whats been said. Wel done guys. I rarely enjoy a visit to a virgin held station ever... Been to a few too.
If they keep promise of extending all pendys to 11 car if they get it then i will be impressed.

 

[Masbroughlad]

i think Virgin trains should get the new west coast franchise in 2012,as they at least had the vision to improve the west coast,which BR never did,tried but failed with APT,i know it was grossly expensive but it is now a genuine high speed line,normally pretty good service,even done London-Warrington in 98 mins and that was running early,

I don't mind as long as whoever gets it keeps the same levels of service/shops etc.

Fortunately, slash and burn Arriva haven't been shortlisted!

 

[Zoe]

in fact, they'll have to, as the timetable is set by the DfT!

This time there is a minimum service requirement and not a strictly specified timetable. The invitation to tender document I believe actually says that the minimum service requirement can be met by continuing the current service pattern but does not make it compulsory for the bidders to do so.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

i think Virgin trains should get the new west coast franchise in 2012

No.
-1



Just why would Virgin be highly considered? The reasons posted by the OP seem to be unconnected to the Company. So lets look at what Virgin HAVE done. Pricing, Station upkeep, station facilities, on-board facilities (and the removal of same), staffing levels and rostering, pay and conditions, marketing.
So how do we assess the Company? The same way as its shareholders?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

No.
-1

Seconded.

 

[Zoe]

No.

Why not? They were bold in their original bid for 140 mph running and had it not been for Railtrack failing to deliver there will be a 140 mph service now.

 

[185]

Unlike BR how much money did Saint Beardie of Yacht Island get for his franchise?

Ditch Virgin. Indeed ditch all private companies, after all - why should us taxpayers spend thousands of millions on nothing more than a paintscheme?

After what Virmin did to Wrexham and Shropshire, whilst at the same time whinging like a four-year-old girl about not wanting Grand Central nicking it's customers it's nothing more than a big red smelly hypocrite. Bin 'em!

 

[richardderby]

think virgin know that they have already lost it, they seem to be milking it for every last penny... and they have some very rude/ demanding staff, especially on the manchester trains (have a look at the amount of negative comments on their facebook page!)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Why not? They were bold in their original bid for 140 mph running and had it not been for Railtrack failing to deliver there will be a 140 mph service now.

You are quite correct, and its a good question.
The short answer is that, in my opinion, they (Virgin / Stagecoach) simply ran it as a bus company runs a franchised service: i.e. balancing the minimum expenditure against marketing opportunities for improved revenue at low cost, and a barely adequate shareholder dividend.
None of those objectives are what I would prefer to see from a TOC's interest in its operation.

Its hard to make comparisons, but I wonder if the delivered service availability, staff engagement and customer support of the highly criticised Northern franchise is greater than that of Virgin's high-speed WCML offering.

I also agree that the agreement which predicated the franchise on 140mph operation was ambitions and possibly acheivable (though just how much competitive edge it would have given the operator will have to remain a speculation). Having lost that opportunity, did the Company choose another target for its innovative business?

 

[graham43404]

I forgot to mention before Virgins poor revenue protection as well. All too often we have seen people go from Manchester to Stoke or the reverse without any form of ticket check. We have even gone from Manchester to Euston in standard with no ticket check, Manchester to Euston in First with no ticket check since before Stoke. That's another thing that irks me with Virgin, I just think they get subsidy from the government and ultimately all of us and don't seem to care about fare dodgers like other TOC's do.

 

[phil8715]

My brother works on Virgin Trains out of Manchester Piccadilly. So I would probably want Virgin to get it. I am not a fan of Virgin Trains myself but obviously have support family.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I forgot to mention before Virgins poor revenue protection as well. All too often we have seen people go from Manchester to Stoke or the reverse without any form of ticket check. We have even gone from Manchester to Euston in standard with no ticket check, Manchester to Euston in First with no ticket check since before Stoke. That's another thing that irks me with Virgin, I just think they get subsidy from the government and ultimately all of us and don't seem to care about fare dodgers like other TOC's do.

That is an understandable complaint. But do you also believe that Virgin's response to Revenue Protection is disproportionate to other operators?

 

[MCR247]

My brother works on Virgin Trains out of Manchester Piccadilly. So I would probably want Virgin to get it. I am not a fan of Virgin Trains myself but obviously have support family.

Staff transfer

 

[graham43404]

That is an understandable complaint. But do you also believe that Virgin's response to Revenue Protection is disproportionate to other operators?

Compared to East Coast, Northern, First TPE and Scotrail I would rate Virgin at the bottom of the pile personally.

Most of the time on those services the guard comes along a few times compared to most of the time on Virgin they come along just the once.

 

[MCR247]

Unlike BR how much money did Saint Beardie of Yacht Island get for his franchise?

Ditch Virgin. Indeed ditch all private companies, after all - why should us taxpayers spend thousands of millions on nothing more than a paintscheme?

After what Virmin did to Wrexham and Shropshire, whilst at the same time whinging like a four-year-old girl about not wanting Grand Central nicking it's customers it's nothing more than a big red smelly hypocrite. Bin 'em!

Oh please.

Moderation of competion? Was part of the franchise, and Virgin were forced by the DfT to complain as it was part of their franchise

 

[AlterEgo]

It's a sealed bid....

So everything that has been mentioned so far in this thread is utterly and totally irrelevant in terms of actually awarding the new franchise. Completely.

The bid will be assessed on what each (anonymous) bidder tenders in terms of aspirations - what they want to do over the next X number of years. A bid is an extraordinarily long document filled with financial and operational minutae.

Passengers won't be consulted on who they want the next operator to be.

However -

People who dislike Virgin tend to do so for one of a few reasons:

1. They hate Branson and/or Souter
2. They dislike Voyagers and Pendolinos (fair comment with the Voyagers IMO - look how nice a 222 is)
3. They dislike Virgin's staff
4. They dislike the informal corporate image
5. They don't like the VHF timetable (people who live in Rugby or Nuneaton)
6. They think it's too expensive

How can you possibly say 'I don't want Virgin to win the franchise'? You have no idea what Keolis/SNCF, First or Abellio are promising to deliver! In fact there has been no discussion at all on this board about what any of them are actually going to do with the WCML should they win it. How do you know they ain't going to be worse?

A lot of comment on here has been quite ill-informed - but there are some thoughtful posts, even the critical ones...

 

[Lampshade]

This time there is a minimum service requirement and not a strictly specified timetable. The invitation to tender document I believe actually says that the minimum service requirement can be met by continuing the current service pattern but does not make it compulsory for the bidders to do so.

Hopefully that'll mean more sensible calling patterns; East Coast manage with serving stations south of Doncaster, no reason the ICWC franchisee shouldn't be serving stations south of Warrington/Crewe.

 

[Bayum]

No.
-1



Just why would Virgin be highly considered? The reasons posted by the OP seem to be unconnected to the Company. So lets look at what Virgin HAVE done. Pricing, Station upkeep, station facilities, on-board facilities (and the removal of same), staffing levels and rostering, pay and conditions, marketing.
So how do we assess the Company? The same way as its shareholders?

Like every other TOC there is these days...




I like Virgin. I like the trains they've introduced, the ideas they've had - wasn't it Virgin who pushed forward for the 125mph/140mph upgrades in the first place?

Would they have been done if that push hadn't been there?

 

[markydh]

Have you actually been on an East Coast service between Newcastle and Edinburgh or Newcastle and London? You barely see the Top Hencho once on such journeys. Some people say Northern do their best with the terrible cards they are dealt but their stock is the filthiest I ever travel on, most of what we see up in the North East still has Northern Spirit interiors, etc. They may have crappy stock but they could still make a hell of lot more effort to maintain said stock! Virgin are and always will be my favoured TOC. I hope they retain West Coast (and believe they will).

 

[AlterEgo]

Have you actually been on an East Coast service between Newcastle and Edinburgh or Newcastle and London? You barely see the Top Hencho once on such journeys. Some people say Northern do their best with the terrible cards they are dealt but their stock is the filthiest I ever travel on, most of what we see up in the North East still has Northern Spirit interiors, etc. They may have crappy stock but they could still make a hell of lot more effort to maintain said stock! Virgin are and always will be my favoured TOC. I hope they retain West Coast (and believe they will).

To be fair, it's not really cricket to compare Virgin with Northern - apples and oranges. Although your East Coast comparison is thought-provoking. I've not noticed a difference in revenue protection between the two, to be perfectly honest. I've travelled on EC about a dozen times in the last year.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

no reason the ICWC franchisee shouldn't be serving stations south of Warrington/Crewe.

You mean Nuneaton and Lichfield, right?

 

[yorkie]

After what Virmin did to Wrexham and Shropshire, whilst at the same time whinging like a four-year-old girl about not wanting Grand Central nicking it's customers it's nothing more than a big red smelly hypocrite. Bin 'em!

Virgin did what they had to do as part of their franchise agreement. Your complaints would be better directed to the DfT!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... You barely see the Top Hencho once on such journeys.....

That tends to occur when they are "desperate". Some guards are issuing so many UPFNs (due to now showing discretion) that they cannot check all the tickets. Not saying it's right or wrong, but just an observation. I saw one particular guard who managed to get most of the train done (but not all) still completing the last UPFN as the train was passing Finsbury Park.

No idea what this has to do with Virgin's franchise bid though!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hopefully that'll mean more sensible calling patterns; East Coast manage with serving stations south of Doncaster, no reason the ICWC franchisee shouldn't be serving stations south of Warrington/Crewe.

Right, so the trains will be slower if that happens. So how will the minimum specification of journey times be met? You would breach that specification if the trains are not fast enough surely?

 

[phil8715]

It's a sealed bid....

So everything that has been mentioned so far in this thread is utterly and totally irrelevant in terms of actually awarding the new franchise. Completely.

The bid will be assessed on what each (anonymous) bidder tenders in terms of aspirations - what they want to do over the next X number of years. A bid is an extraordinarily long document filled with financial and operational minutae.

Passengers won't be consulted on who they want the next operator to be.

However -

People who dislike Virgin tend to do so for one of a few reasons:

1. They hate Branson and/or Souter
2. They dislike Voyagers and Pendolinos (fair comment with the Voyagers IMO - look how nice a 222 is)
3. They dislike Virgin's staff
4. They dislike the informal corporate image
5. They don't like the VHF timetable (people who live in Rugby or Nuneaton)
6. They think it's too expensive

How can you possibly say 'I don't want Virgin to win the franchise'? You have no idea what Keolis/SNCF, First or Abellio are promising to deliver! In fact there has been no discussion at all on this board about what any of them are actually going to do with the WCML should they win it. How do you know they ain't going to be worse?

A lot of comment on here has been quite ill-informed - but there are some thoughtful posts, even the critical ones...

Whoever gets the franchise will obviously inherit the Pendos and Voyagers.

I must admit I am not a fan of the Pendos because the legroom in the coaches are far too cramped especially the airline seats just inside the coach. I've travelled on more comfortable buses and coaches.

 

[All Line Rover]

Compared to East Coast, Northern, First TPE and Scotrail I would rate Virgin at the bottom of the pile personally.

Bottom of the pile in terms of what?

I can never get a seat in Standard Class when travelling between Manchester and Leeds on TPE. I'm not happy about having to stand for almost an hour! I don't really blame First themselves, though (as I believe they wanted 4 carriages originally) - I blame the DfT. They're not a bad TOC, really.

Northern have dreadful, appaling, horrendous rolling stock. And contrary to what people say on here, I see few customer-focused, brilliant, knowledeable and motivated staff - a probable explanation being that they are paid peanuts. Although I am sure that there are at least some good staff, I see far more "excellent" staff on Virgin. And no matter how good Northern's staff are, it can't compensate for the unpleasant overall travel experience that is caused by the rolling stock.