Intention to prosecute - standard class ticket in a first class compartment

[Cordoba06]

Dear Sir/Madam

A few months ago I boarded a rush hour train and entered a first class compartment with a standard ticket.

A ticket inspector boarded the train en route to my end destination, entered the compartment and took down my details for failing to show a first class ticket.

Two weeks later I received an 'Intention to Prosecute' letter and was asked to explain my position. I stated that I entered the first class compartment that morning because the train was packed but ultimately admitted my guilt and explained that I was willing to settle out of court.

Two months later I received a letter stating that the prosecutions department 'will be going forward with the case.' It then states, 'should you require any further information then please do not hesitate to contact me.'

I would just like to ask the advice of those on the forum whether I should call the prosecutions department and repeat the offer of a financial settlement or whether it is now inevitable that this case will go to court.

I have never committed any offence (railway or otherwise) so I would appreciate any advice anyone can give me.

Thanks in advance.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . whether I should call the prosecutions department and repeat the offer of a financial settlement or whether it is now inevitable that this case will go to court.

It is not inevitable that it will go to Court.
A settlement of some kind can usually be agreed if it is timely, proportionate and it really is a 'first offence'.

As you have admitted the Offence already, you can concentrate your efforts on 'mitigation' and an offer to settle which is a genuinely attractive offer to the TOC. If they have not yet indicated the level of fine and costs that they would seek, then they will, and that will be the time to make your Offer and negotiate a settlement.

There are always possible grounds for challenging the matter, ranging from the quality of the TOC's Evidence if it was to be tested in a Court, to your personal circumstances (which might favour a Conditional Discharge from a Court), but these will always be something of a gamble, will be slow and perhaps costly. I'm sure you'd rather focus on making an offer and an apology which allows the TOC to feel that they have been adequately compensated.

 

[Cordoba06]

Thanks for responding.

It is a first offence and I stated as such on the 'Intention to Prosecute' form.

Can I ask your advice as to whether you think it would be in my interest to call the prosecutions department and make them an offer or would you suggest waiting?

Since I committed the offence back in July and received the ‘Intention to Prosecute’ form it has seldom been far from my mind as to the impact this could have on my life/career.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

You can certainly wait, but its not clear exactly what is said in the recent correspondence, and without that clarity, neither I nor anyone else on here will be able to advise the course of action which brings you the best prospects of success.
Is a specific offence quoted? Is a level of costs stated? Is a particular Court named?
There will be at least one more letter before Prosecution, which will include these all these details and will give you a bundle of papers which includes their evidence plus the opportunity to plead (Guilty or Not Guilty).

The best time to call will be when the matter is first handed over to a Prosecutor but before that person begins to prepare the bundles of Evidence. That might be soon,

You could perhaps write again to the named person in their Prosecutions Department and
a) explain that you would like to reduce the burden on the Company by not challenging their Claim (but taking care to avoid incriminating yourself further than you have done already!);
b) repeating your apology and assurance that you will never to such a foolish thing again;
c) repeat your willingness to make a settlement and ask if you could call within the next few days to discuss.

Then call.
A solicitor may be able to make the call for you if you don't feel confident in remaining calm, forceful and constructively helpful, but a solicitor would not advise you to state in that you won'r challenge their Claim ( in a) , above) as keeping open the potential for an expensive challenge in Court is something that they could still do for you whilst you would, presumably, be unable to do so yourself.

 

[Cordoba06]

Thanks Dave,

Just re-read your response.

I will wait to hear from them.

Regarding the fine, can you advise as to how much I should be prepared to pay? I've seen amounts on this website ranging from £150 up to £1000.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The latest correspondence I have received states, as stated in my first post, that the company "will be going forward with the case."

It is a very brief letter of no more than two sentences.

From your response I now understand that I will receive an in-depth response from them.

Thanks very much.

 

[yorkie]

Regarding the fine, can you advise as to how much I should be prepared to pay? I've seen amounts on this website ranging from £150 up to £1000.

I think there is a little confusion here. You can't decide what the fine is, the court will decide that - if it goes to court. But I guess you meant to say settlement, rather than fine?

Can you confirm what act you are being prosecuted with?

 

[bengolding]

I would like to wish you the best of luck with this and do hope that the TOC sees sense and settles out of court, given that it was a first offence. I've travelled on First Class annual seasons with FCC and more recently with FGW. With FCC, this was purely to guarantee a seat in the am peak and it was common for Standard to overfill and move into First due to no space being available but RPIs still penalty fared them (or wosre) for doing so. I've seen everyone from OAPs with Standard tickets to a sight impaired person with a cane being reported by RPIs for sitting in First.

However, I do know that certain TOCs are known to pursue these cases more aggressively than others. Which TOC was involved?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I think there is a little confusion here. You can't decide what the fine is, the court will decide that - if it goes to court. But I guess you meant to say settlement, rather than fine?

That is absolutely correct.
However, it is common for a TOC's Prosecution's Dept. to write to a passenger in advance of a Hearing in Court which indicates the level of costs that they will seek and the level of Fine that they will 'expect' the Court to impose.
So while its true that a Court and only a Court can determine that fine, it is helpful (if threatening!) of a TOC to give the distraught passenger an indication of what they are up against.

The point of making this distinction is to clarify that the offer which a passenger makes may be LESS than the amount they would be charged by the Magistrates, but MORE than the amount the TOC would receive from a successful prosecution. This presents a useful negotiating lever!

 

[Cordoba06]

Thanks for the advice on this forum.

The TOC is FCC.

By 'fine' I did mean 'settlement'.

Two months ago I filled in an 'Intention to Prosecute' form stating my case. I do not recall the relevant act.

However, having looked on this forum I remember the wording to be:

"the notice of intention to prosecute states the details of the offence - you were stopped and questioned in regard to the following alleged offence(s)
Occupy a reserved seat, berth or train without an appropriate ticket. This letter is to inform you of our intention to take this case to the magistrates court and the enclosed form provides you with the opportunity to tell us what happened from your point of view. Information should be both factual and honest".

 

[jon0844]

I've had issues with FCC, but to be fair - they need to be tough on first class as they don't check all trains and need a proper deterrent. I hope they'll continue to do this, unless it's on a train where they've failed to properly mark first class (as with at least one recently refreshed 321 on the GN side).

I'm sorry if you take offence, but I am actually quite happy to see them prosecuting people rather than just dish out a pathetic £20 penalty fare, or double the fare. First class, like it or not, is there for a reason. People who pay more help subsidise the rest of us, and people won't upgrade if it's a free for all.

 

[island]

That is a prosecution under the railway byelaws, which is the lesser of the usual two offences. It does not result in a disclosable criminal record.

 

[Stigy]

That is a prosecution under the railway byelaws, which is the lesser of the usual two offences. It does not result in a disclosable criminal record.

I think you are right, however FCC haven't actually stated the offence as such, just used working from it (Byelaw 19.1), therefore they were stating what is alleged to have occurred as opposed to what legislation they intend to use. The Byelaw will be the easiest result though, and unless intention to avoid payment was evident, I'd imagine they'd go with the Byelaw.

 

[Flamingo]

I would like to wish you the best of luck with this and do hope that the TOC sees sense and settles out of court, given that it was a first offence. I've travelled on First Class annual seasons with FCC and more recently with FGW. With FCC, this was purely to guarantee a seat in the am peak and it was common for Standard to overfill and move into First due to no space being available but RPIs still penalty fared them (or wosre) for doing so. I've seen everyone from OAPs with Standard tickets to a sight impaired person with a cane being reported by RPIs for sitting in First.

I'm happy to see it being enforced, even in the circumstances you mention. I know two regular "visually impaired" passengers who will tell platform staff to sit them in 1st class, but have standard class tickets, in the knowledge that they will not be shifted. I have warned both of them that if they do it again on my trains they will be shifted/charged.

The whole "no space" arguement is a red herring. If the train IS that crowded, the on-train staff will be aware and will declassify. If they have not done so, there is a reason - usually that there is adequate space in STD class (even standing, which is still space).

 

[All Line Rover]

The whole "no space" arguement is a red herring. If the train IS that crowded, the on-train staff will be aware and will declassify. If they have not done so, there is a reason - usually that there is adequate space in STD class (even standing, which is still space).

Apart from the fact that FCC don't have any on-board staff, meaning that there is no one to declassify First Class. FCC trains can get very busy - dangerously so sometimes.

 

[jon0844]

I've been on FCC trains where the driver has declassified the train, although it was when a train was short formed.

However, many peak trains out of King's Cross are declassified anyway (just check the timetable!). I believe some trains on the TL side are declassified too. Again, check the timetable, and don't tell too many people if you want to have more chance of a seat yourself!!

 

[Flamingo]

I'm not sure about FCC, but with FGW HST's if it is that crowded, and likely to remain so beyond one stop, the TM will probably declassify.

"Dangerously overcrowded" is one that always confuses me. Why do people get on if it's that crowded?

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'm not sure about FCC, but with FGW HST's if it is that crowded, and likely to remain so beyond one stop, the TM will probably declassify.

"Dangerously overcrowded" is one that always confuses me. Why do people get on if it's that crowded?

If it is dangerously overcrowded, ask how many they think would get off (let's use 50 as an example), and then ask if they would like to pick the other 49...

 

[exile]

"Dangerously overcrowded" - usually defined as such by people already on the train even though there may be plenty of space around the middle of the carriage. These people, of course, know they'll get home, whereas those trying to get on, don't. As far as I'm concerned the decision should be made by on train staff as to whether to let more people on.

I've travelled on Italian buses where the concept of "dangerously overcrowded" just doesn't exist - if it's physically possible to squeeze yourself on, that's regarded as OK!

 

[Ferret]

I can't add much to this thread except to say the regular figures I hear for this kind of offence are about 400 quid. About half is the fine, most of the other half are the prosecution costs and then the remainder being a victim surcharge I think.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

I've travelled on Italian buses where the concept of "dangerously overcrowded" just doesn't exist - if it's physically possible to squeeze yourself on, that's regarded as OK!

So that's where National Express WM have learnt from?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I can't add much to this thread except to say the regular figures I hear for this kind of offence are about 400 quid. About half is the fine, most of the other half are the prosecution costs and then the remainder being a victim surcharge I think.

I was reluctant to jump in with 'figures out of the air', I'd be inclined to agree with you, though I'd probably reduce that estimate a little, esp. if the OP can agree a settlement before the Prosecutions folks start preparing their 'bundles' of evidence.

My guess? £150 fine (for a First Offence), £80 - 120 costs (varies between TOCs), £15 Victim Surcharge.

But, and its a big BUT, these three elements will only apply to a successful claim after a Court Hearing. If its settled beforehand, then the TOC can be offered more than the £80 - £120 which they'd receive after a conviction, but the passenger would not be faced with the Fine nor the VS (these can only apply if it reaches a Court).

That's why I mentioned the benefit to both parties of a settlement - the TOC receives more and the passenger pays less.

 

[Stigy]

You'll be looking at half the average wage on a Byelaw offence conviction, which is typically £175, plus £15 VS, costs of around £100 and compensation (fare or part fare due). All this is means dependant and can vary accordingly.

 

[Cordoba06]

Thanks to the (good) advice on this forum I was able to settle this matter out of court for £200.

To the scaremongers trawling this forum and posting antagonising messages you need to get a life.

The majority of people that will come to this forum for advice will be concerned about the threat of a criminal record and will be first time ‘offenders.’

I very much doubt that repeat ‘offenders’ (I guess that have abused/insulted the former/current ticket inspectors posting on the forum) would even bother to look into the potential consequences of court action/fines.

Based on my experience I can safely say that people should not overly concern themselves about this. The process will take about five months. You will NOT receive a criminal record nor a fine anywhere near some of the ridiculous numbers posted on this thread and on other discussions I have read on this forum.

 

[jon0844]

Not concern themselves with having to pay £200?!

Seems like a good result, and the question now is; would you go in first class again when only holding a standard class ticket?

 

[MikeWh]

To the OP: Thanks for coming back to update us on the outcome. That will reassure future visitors that it is possible to come out of what often seems a life changing situation (potential criminal record) with a more palatable settlement. You are right that most people who come on here seeking advice will be first time offenders, but it isn't always the case. Yes, the forum does contain a lot of rail staff, and some of them do seem sometimes to take out their frustrations on people admitting making a mistake. However, there are also several good posters who will endeavour to counter the scaremongering with reasoned and obviously well thought out advice.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . I was able to settle this matter out of court for £200.

That's excellent news, and I too am grateful to you for completing the forum's topic with the outcome. I hope it wasn't too worrying in the meantime - these matters can, and do, take months to resolve.

 

[Barn]

Thanks to the (good) advice on this forum I was able to settle this matter out of court for £200.

To the scaremongers trawling this forum and posting antagonising messages you need to get a life.

The majority of people that will come to this forum for advice will be concerned about the threat of a criminal record and will be first time ‘offenders.’

I very much doubt that repeat ‘offenders’ (I guess that have abused/insulted the former/current ticket inspectors posting on the forum) would even bother to look into the potential consequences of court action/fines.

Based on my experience I can safely say that people should not overly concern themselves about this. The process will take about five months. You will NOT receive a criminal record nor a fine anywhere near some of the ridiculous numbers posted on this thread and on other discussions I have read on this forum.

Calm down a bit. You had a good result because the relevant decision maker exercised his/her discretion in your favour. That will not happen in all circumstances (and it is very unlikely to happen to you again with that company in the near future).

 

[Flamingo]

Thanks to the (good) advice on this forum I was able to settle this matter out of court for £200.

To the scaremongers trawling this forum and posting antagonising messages you need to get a life.

The majority of people that will come to this forum for advice will be concerned about the threat of a criminal record and will be first time ‘offenders.’

I very much doubt that repeat ‘offenders’ (I guess that have abused/insulted the former/current ticket inspectors posting on the forum) would even bother to look into the potential consequences of court action/fines.

Based on my experience I can safely say that people should not overly concern themselves about this. The process will take about five months. You will NOT receive a criminal record nor a fine anywhere near some of the ridiculous numbers posted on this thread and on other discussions I have read on this forum.

Glad you were able to resolve it.

However, the "scaremongers" may include people who day in day out have to listen to individuals who basically are complaining about the fact that they got caught because they were in breach of the T&C that the vast majority of other passengers are able to abide by. The constant "They can't do that to me, I'm special" approach does lead one to become somewhat cynical, and less than patient when listening to it for the nth time.

If the "scaremongers" are less than sympathetic and huggy-feely, it might be because they do not think that sympathy is appropriate or deserved,

 

[amcluesent]

I was able to settle this matter out of court for £200.

Seems fair, and without the blight of PNC\CRB checks coming back with an issue for ever. Getting a bent copper to delete the PNC record would been £250 easy

 

[district]

I'm glad you reached a resolution and I hope it deters you from using first class in this way in future, that's what it's designed to do.

I'm glad you have chosen to take some great advice from people here at RailUK