Chiltern Railways m-ticket purchased, phone stolen

[shinkansen1966]

In the case of this m-ticket, it seems like there's no option to get a backup or replacement. That's perhaps an accepted way to do things, but would put me right off using it.

This is it.

With Chiltern Railways m-ticket, the ticket is stored on that phone in particular. It cannot be transferred to another phone or downloaded again. If your phone is damaged, lost, crashes, runs of out power or stolen, you have to buy a new ticket.

When I called Chiltern Railways about this on Friday they simply it's like loosing a paper ticket. It's your problem, not ours.

 

[AlterEgo]

With Chiltern Railways m-ticket, the ticket is stored on that phone in particular. It cannot be transferred to another phone or downloaded again.

Is this not for obvious reasons?

Unless you are suggesting that m-tickets should come with an ID requirement to prove "ownership" of the "real" ticket, as you're suggesting that the tickets should be easily replicable (and therefore open to fraudulent use).

 

[jon0844]

If that's their way of looking at it - fine. Just never use the service. I doubt I will.

There has to be a better way of doing things. Of course, the only proper way is for everyone on the railway network to be connected - so you could have as many virtual tickets as you wanted (multiple copies for your email inbox, smartphone app, a printed version to be safe and a way to get it via the web) and once it is scanned once, it's no longer able to be scanned again (without showing it has been scanned).

Like a paper ticket, there's no need for the railway to check it's you - unless it's a discounted ticket or some other conditions apply.

I suspect that given the fact that they can't easily validate the ticket, they've tried to be so restrictive to make sure that's not a problem - for the TOC.

I've been to gigs with virtual tickets and they couldn't scan it, so they had no choice but to let me in. If I'd wanted, I could easily have given the same ticket to friends who could have tried, and the venue would run the risk of letting in too many people (and not known who was valid and who wasn't, as there were no seats).

To work properly, the industry has to get everything right from the start - which would probably mean ATOC needs to ratify an approved standard for m-tickets. Everything else is just a bodge.

 

[causton]

Surely the ticket can be 'validated' when the user wants to travel, and then it will be non-transferable and stuck on the phone, when they are ready to make the journey

 

[radamfi]

Just had another look at the Chiltern app and it seems that m-tickets are available for £75 Anytime Returns as well as Advance fares. I didn't realise that m-tickets were available for walk-up fares as well. So how do they stop someone using the m-ticket twice?

 

[richw]

If that's their way of looking at it - fine. Just never use the service. I doubt I will.

There has to be a better way of doing things. Of course, the only proper way is for everyone on the railway network to be connected - so you could have as many virtual tickets as you wanted (multiple copies for your email inbox, smartphone app, a printed version to be safe and a way to get it via the web) and once it is scanned once, it's no longer able to be scanned again (without showing it has been scanned).

Print at home theatre tickets work like that, Once the barcode is scanned that barcode is no longer usable, if it is scanned more than once, then none of the holders can stay, and the ticket merchant credits back to the correct owners payment card the amounts for the ticket.

 

[mallard]

So is there absolutely any reason whatsoever why a passenger might opt to use an "m-ticket" instead of a real ticket?

From what I can see here, the only possible advantage it gives you is the possible avoidance of queues at a TVM or ticket office.

 

[welshpax]

What really annoys me about this forum is whenever there is an issue with tickets the default setting seems to be - Well that is in the terms and conditions and if you don't like them or don't read them then tough!

I would like to ask the question and it may be a little controversial here, but, who exactly are the railways run for? By the sound of some of the replies here it is certainly not the customers.

I have been in the Customer Service industry within many sectors for most of my working life, and the first thing I learned the first excuse many businesses use when they cannot be bothered dealing with an issue is 'Well it's in the T&C's'

As a manager in a previous company I worked for, the employee's were empowered to make a judgement call whenever the customer made a request, if it was in their power to sort out the issue they would.

The default situation on the railway seems to favour the TOC and in my opinion this is wrong, granted, that these companies need protection against fraud or criminal activities, however the pendulum seems to have swung too far towards the TOC.

Sometimes, I come to the conclusion that the railway is not operated for the customers benefit, but more to keep the railway employees in a job. However, what some people cannot see is that these two things work in conjunction with each other. Improved customer perception will lead to an increase in revenue and indeed an increase in yield.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Is this not for obvious reasons?

Unless you are suggesting that m-tickets should come with an ID requirement to prove "ownership" of the "real" ticket, as you're suggesting that the tickets should be easily replicable (and therefore open to fraudulent use).

Yes. It would make m-tickets more secure. We already have the same for print @ home tickets.

 

[cumfy]

I would like to ask the question and it may be a little controversial here, but, who exactly are the railways run for?

Shareholders

And therein lies the problem.

 

[welshpax]

Shareholders

And therein lies the problem.

I don't buy that arguement at all, every company I have ever worked at has had shareholders to keep happy.

I think it all goes back to attitude of the management team and empowerment of the employee's to make a difference the customer.

 

[mallard]

I would like to ask the question and it may be a little controversial here, but, who exactly are the railways run for? By the sound of some of the replies here it is certainly not the customers.

It's basically a battle between politicians (trying to keep the cost to the taxpayer low and the voters happy), shareholders (trying to maximise returns) and well-organised staff (trying to keep their pay and benefits high, while resisting innovations that lead to less staff/more responsibilities).

Passengers are pretty much just the revenue source, not a major concern for anyone (even the politicians just want to do enough that the blame for issues falls on someone else).

 

[jon0844]

Shareholders aren't always sitting back saying 'do whatever it takes to make money'. In fact, negative publicity often does far more harm in the long run. When I had shares in Orange, I wanted to see them embracing new technology and doing everything to help customers, of which I happened to also be one. Ripping people off may have made a quick buck, but would have just allowed the competition to wipe them out.

We must all accept that m-tickets, smartcards and the like will be the future (m-tickets will most likely become stored tokens on an NFC card that won't require power, thus no problem with a phone crashing or the battery running out) so it's a good idea to get things sorted now.

I honestly believe the system as it stands is there to save Chiltern having to have the equipment to be able to validate (and cancel out) a ticket in real-time. With only one ticket ever available, there's no need to cancel it in case someone else also presents it.

That's an issue to address, and a flaw in the system when not done properly. Perhaps shareholders would be slightly concerned and ask why Chiltern is doing something in a half-arsed fashion.

 

[AlterEgo]

Shareholders

And therein lies the problem.

Of course, it's terrible that the railway dare have shareholders like any other private enterprise....

Renationalisation is not ever going to happen, which is something people need to deal with.

The problem lies not with TOCs in having an interest in turning a profit (and many do not turn a profit!), but poor or misguided implementation of ticketing. Essentially the railway tries very hard to cater for everyone, because they are ranted at continuously by the public that they ought to do so. This is why we have a myriad of fares and a myriad upon myriad of ways to book, and collect one's ticket.

Not a week goes by on this forum without someone suggesting yet another type of ticket or collection method to go on top of what we already have!

I still have sympathy with the OP though. Regardless of the TnCs, when one books an electronic or virtual ticket, easy replication or at least a solution to the loss of the ticket is a realistic expectation.

You could always tell Chiltern you'll travel Virgin in future! Might provoke a response...

 

[mallard]

The problem lies not with TOCs in having an interest in turning a profit (and many do not turn a profit!), but poor or misguided implementation of ticketing. Essentially the railway tries very hard to cater for everyone, because they are ranted at continuously by the public that they ought to do so. This is why we have a myriad of fares and a myriad upon myriad of ways to book, and collect one's ticket.

What's wrong with expecting the TOCs to cater to all their passengers? Isn't that what they're supposed to be doing? Maybe they should look at the legitimate reasons why they're "ranted at"?

The TOCs are the ones responsible for the "poor or misguided implementation of ticketing". They implement things such as "m-tickets", so they can look "hip" and "modern" to the public, but with little regard for how it actually works in practice.

We also have every TOC implementing their own smart-card system, with the only "compatibility" between them being that you can (in theory, I don't expect it to happen in real life) have the same physical card enrolled in multiple systems (with multiple balances, accounts, etc.). What a mess.

All this seems to be a way for TOCs to tactility introduce "TOC-only" fares on all their routes, without lowering the price significantly to compensate users for the loss of flexibility. i.e. it's main purpose is to avoid sharing revenue via ORCATS; to hell with the passengers.

We need a proper, coordinated system, some "joined up thinking", which is sorely lacking in our fragmented rail system.

Of course, TOCs are actively encouraged not to cooperate with each other, so it's only going to get worse for the passenger in the long-term.

 

[AlterEgo]

You're quite right in saying the TOCs are at fault for poor implementation. However many TOCs have it in their franchise agreements that they must provide, for example, smartcard ticketing. This results in rushed implementation and poor results.

Mobile ticketing is not suitable for the railway. I don't care if the airlines use it - trains ain't planes. You don't see airlines using cheap interavailable ticketing methods such as our orange edged paper tickets. That's because it wouldn't work for them!

Mobile ticketing is very much in it's infancy on the railway yet operators continue to rush in to implementing it. It's more trouble than it's worth.

 

[mallard]

You're quite right in saying the TOCs are at fault for poor implementation. However many TOCs have it in their franchise agreements that they must provide, for example, smartcard ticketing. This results in rushed implementation and poor results.

Since when did the franchise agreement actually matter to the TOCs? XC wifi springs to mind... (Although I was on the train that's apparently equipped recently. Of course, it didn't work...)

Like I said, I suspect that the rush to introduce practically incompatible systems has more to do with the avoidance of ORCATS sharing than anything else.

Mobile ticketing is not suitable for the railway. I don't care if the airlines use it - trains ain't planes. You don't see airlines using cheap interavailable ticketing methods such as our orange edged paper tickets. That's because it wouldn't work for them!

Mobile ticketing is very much in it's infancy on the railway yet operators continue to rush in to implementing it. It's more trouble than it's worth.

Agreed. They're only doing it for PR/"image" reasons anyway.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Since when did the franchise agreement actually matter to the TOCs? XC wifi springs to mind... (Although I was on the train that's apparently equipped recently. Of course, it didn't work...)

Did XC get fined for not meeting WiFi franchise requirement ? What's the latest on that ?

 

[jon0844]

Yes, on a plane it's pretty easy to manage e-tickets, especially as you still show it with a passport and there's no way someone will be able to sit on your lap or hide on another seat (and they count everyone anyway).

For the train, you'd not only need allocated seats but also a check-in process - OR a live database that can be checked by anyone and everyone, which means blanket mobile coverage (possible perhaps with GSM-R?) and the equipment to manage it. That sounds expensive, and if it's going to happen (it would give other benefits, like real-time train info, credit card authorisation) then it needs to be done as an industry-wide system, not a TOC-by-TOC basis where we end up with separate apps for every TOC (God help us if that happened).

Just imagine the need to download an app and register a new account for every operator. How much time will that save, as well as all the customer-service related enquiries when things go wrong - as well as the excuses when people are on the wrong train etc.

 

[radamfi]

Dutch print at home tickets are valid on any train just like a normal single ticket (they don't do domestic reservations, other than on Fyra). They just need to be accompanied by identification.

 

[shinkansen1966]

So I have a new paper ticket for the Chiltern Railways trip to Birmingham. The ticket is in a safe place until I need it. So it's unlikely to get lost or stolen. It's also unlikely to crash, break down, run out of battery power or loose reception.

Lesson learned: Chiltern Railways m-tickets are not to be trusted.

 

[jon0844]

Until you leave it on a radiator overnight (if it's a thermal one) as you're so likely to do.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Mobile ticketing is not suitable for the railway. I don't care if the airlines use it - trains ain't planes. You don't see airlines using cheap interavailable ticketing methods such as our orange edged paper tickets. That's because it wouldn't work for them!

Mobile ticketing is very much in it's infancy on the railway yet operators continue to rush in to implementing it. It's more trouble than it's worth.

Yes I agree. There are many ticketing methods suitable for Railways but m-ticketing is not one of them. Many methods may be suitable for planes - and even buses and coaches where passengers get on via the front door and the driver and have to produce something to get on, but may not be suitable for trains. Especially seeing as a significant number of people seem to be of the opinion that travelling by train is free and will find any way possible to avoid paying their fare - something which you don't tend to get on planes and buses and coaches.

Dutch print at home tickets are valid on any train just like a normal single ticket (they don't do domestic reservations, other than on Fyra). They just need to be accompanied by identification.

And I can bet your bottom dollar that in this country someone who can't produce the required form of ID at the time of travel will instantly claim that everyone is a nasty jobsworth not showing good customer service when they have to pay again. Which reminds me of that case highlighted on The One Show some months ago when somebody wanted the cheapest print at home ticket possible but failed to read any of the not unreasonable restrictions (one of which you suggest as being standard on the continent) and got stung for lots of money.

The problem is, as has been mentioned many times before, people want the cheapest, most convenient method of paying and producing for a ticket but want none of the responsibilities that go with it.

While I actually have every sympathy with the OP's case, and I actually do think that it should be possible to log into your booking account and get another m-ticket on your mobile, you should show id at the time to prove that you are you and are entitled to use the ticket. With print at home tickets you can print as many tickets as you want, but you need id to use them and show your id when you show your ticket. Some people can't even do this!

 

[Lampshade]

Did XC get fined for not meeting WiFi franchise requirement ? What's the latest on that ?

Yep they got fined, twice. They're finally doing it now though.

 

[Greenback]

Yes I agree. There are many ticketing methods suitable for Railways but m-ticketing is not one of them. Many methods may be suitable for planes - and even buses and coaches where passengers get on via the front door and the driver and have to produce something to get on, but may not be suitable for trains. Especially seeing as a significant number of people seem to be of the opinion that travelling by train is free and will find any way possible to avoid paying their fare - something which you don't tend to get on planes and buses and coaches.

I agree. I am all for choice when it comes to payment method, and media on which tickets can be held, but there is a clear risk with these type so felectornic ticket that it might not be able to be produced at the point it is needed.

While I actually have every sympathy with the OP's case, and I actually do think that it should be possible to log into your booking account and get another m-ticket on your mobile, you should show id at the time to prove that you are you and are entitled to use the ticket. With print at home tickets you can print as many tickets as you want, but you need id to use them and show your id when you show your ticket. Some people can't even do this!

I also have sympathy for Shinkansen. It's bad enough to lose a phone, even without having a ticket on it!

I also have sympathy with people who lose their wallet, money, or rail ticket. But it is an unfortunate fact of life that these things happen,. Indeed, I've lost cash and my wallet on several occasions.

The unfortunate thing is that litle cna be done to alelviate the problem of lost tickets (in whatever form) if we want to retain the ability to simply walk up and catch the train.

 

[shinkansen1966]

The unfortunate thing is that litle cna be done to alelviate the problem of lost tickets (in whatever form) if we want to retain the ability to simply walk up and catch the train.

And this is why I generally prefer to order tickets beforehand and collect the tickets at a TVM prior to boarding the train. I get an email with the booking reference and use my credit card to obtain the tickets.

Interestingly, I did loose my tickets after collecting them at a TVM. Goodness knows how. I only found out once I was on the train. But the ticket inspector was fine with the email showing the reference, I sat at the seat matching the email's travel details and produced the credit card used to buy the tickets in the first place.

In my opinion, these Chiltern railways m-tickets are even less reliable than paper tickets.

 

[jon0844]

I think the ticket should be accessible from within the app when reinstalled on a new phone. The app is tied to an account (An iTunes account, or for Android, a Google account). It should be possible to verify that the app is at least installed on a device where the same user has logged in.

Okay, so it could be a stolen id/password, but there's only so much checking the developer needs to do before the problem transfers to the user (like a bank card, how did someone obtain said ID/password). There's no real need to completely lock out access to a ticket, especially before it has been/can be used.

But, they've obviously chosen to do it this way. As I've said many times, if they want to do it like that then fair enough - as long as it's in the T&Cs. It just means I absolutely would not buy a ticket this way as there's much more chance of something going wrong with my phone for some stupid reason than I lost the ticket that I'd look after like cash.

 

[shinkansen1966]

But, they've obviously chosen to do it this way. As I've said many times, if they want to do it like that then fair enough - as long as it's in the T&Cs. It just means I absolutely would not buy a ticket this way as there's much more chance of something going wrong with my phone for some stupid reason than I lost the ticket that I'd look after like cash.

I've emailed Chiltern Railways and pointed that nowhere on their web site do they point out what happens if you change your mobile or it's lost or damaged.
Looking at their FAQs on m-tickets
http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/content/frequently-asked-questions#
and the links don't even work.

The whole m-ticket thing is just utter rubbish.

 

[jon0844]

That site shows all the questions but none of the answers (at least for me, using Opera). God help us if they can't develop a website that works on every web browser - or at least the top 5 (IE, Safari, Firefox, Opera and Chrome).

Edit: Actually, I am pretty certain that page won't work on ANY browser as every single question has the same link! As they'd add on Twitter; #fail

 

[shinkansen1966]

That site shows all the questions but none of the answers (at least for me, using Opera). God help us if they can't develop a website that works on every web browser - or at least the top 5 (IE, Safari, Firefox, Opera and Chrome).

Edit: Actually, I am pretty certain that page won't work on ANY browser as every single question has the same link! As they'd add on Twitter; #fail

FAQ links don't work on Firefox either.

Forwarded my email of complaint onto Masabi who supply Chiltern's m-ticket software. The email goes to contact@masabi.com, but you get an out of office reply from a member of staff there whose autosignature says Masabi - Revolutionising Transport Through Mobile

Well I found Masabi's software kind of 'revolutionising'. Revolting would be more accurate.

Apparently, Masabi operate out of 'informal and funky office'. Their offices are (and again I quote from their web site) in an area "...with some great lunching facilities ...and ... proximity to Borough Market is excellent news for gastronomes, if less good for their wallets."

I would agree. I found Masabi's software less good for my wallet, too. Their software is rubbish.