Irish Mk 3s for sale

[tbtc]

Surely the IE Mark 3s could be put into use on the GEML Norwich services, where the power doors could reduce dwell times, thus freeing up the existing Mark 3s to move elsewhere.

...but where though?

How many lines would be suitable for loco hauled? (given that a 67 couldn't keep time with a Voyager etc)

 

[Rhydgaled]

...but where though?

How many lines would be suitable for loco hauled? (given that a 67 couldn't keep time with a Voyager etc)

Would any of these do:
Chiltern Mainline, Cardiff - Nottingham, Gerald, Cardiff - Portsmouth, Edinburgh - Aberdeen/Inverness, TPE, Manchester - Scotland after electrification (with class 90s), Liverpool - Norwich or Birmingham - Shrewsbury/Chester/Holyhead (Aberystwyth gains units for an hourly service to Shrewsbury at the cost of direct trains to Birmingham)?

Basicly long-distance regional express services, plus Chiltern.

 

[Drsatan]

Would any of these do:
Chiltern Mainline, Cardiff - Nottingham, Gerald, Cardiff - Portsmouth, Edinburgh - Aberdeen/Inverness, TPE, Manchester - Scotland after electrification (with class 90s), Liverpool - Norwich or Birmingham - Shrewsbury/Chester/Holyhead (Aberystwyth gains units for an hourly service to Shrewsbury at the cost of direct trains to Birmingham)?

Basicly long-distance regional express services, plus Chiltern.

Only problem is, where do you find the locomotives to haul them? AFAIK there aren't any spare 67s and according to this gen sheet there are only 30 main line registered 47s at the moment, all of which are in use. The cost of restoring 47s that have been OOU for over 10 years or so would be prohibitive compared to purchasing new DMUs. Finally, I can't imagine any ROSCO willing to place an order for a small batch of diesel locomotives to haul the ex IE Mk3s, since there's no guarantee on what other work they can be used for when the Mk3s have to be withdrawn.

 

[jopsuk]

Also, unless there's enough DVTs, they'll need some sort of driving vehicle at the non-loco end (unelss you're going to waste even more by having two locos per train)- the brake coaches in the IE sale would be obvious candiadates (to become DBSOs) but the coaches may need new wiring for the controls, the DVT controls (last used with electric locos) will need modifying etc. Such a big investment.

 

[40086]

Would any of these do:
Chiltern Mainline, Cardiff - Nottingham, Gerald, Cardiff - Portsmouth, Edinburgh - Aberdeen/Inverness, TPE, Manchester - Scotland after electrification (with class 90s), Liverpool - Norwich or Birmingham - Shrewsbury/Chester/Holyhead (Aberystwyth gains units for an hourly service to Shrewsbury at the cost of direct trains to Birmingham)?

Basicly long-distance regional express services, plus Chiltern.

Only problem is, where do you find the locomotives to haul them? AFAIK there aren't any spare 67s and according to this gen sheet there are only 30 main line registered 47s at the moment, all of which are in use. The cost of restoring 47s that have been OOU for over 10 years or so would be prohibitive compared to purchasing new DMUs. Finally, I can't imagine any ROSCO willing to place an order for a small batch of diesel locomotives to haul the ex IE Mk3s, since there's no guarantee on what other work they can be used for when the Mk3s have to be withdrawn.

Keep up! DRS Eurolights ring a bell, and seen the UK gauge TRAXX proposal? Services like Fife Circle ate using mk 2s so IE Mk3s would be an upgrade. Remember once done on the Fife circle that stock may be used for fill in services elsewhere!

 

[Masbroughlad]

TRAXX locos and the Irish Mk3s sounds good

 

[tbtc]

TRAXX locos and the Irish Mk3s sounds good

...but then you have the problem of brand new locos for coaches that are decades old - do you then build new coaches in a few years when the Mk3s fall to pieces?

Would it be better to build new locos/coaches in the first place?

 

[junglejames]

...but then you have the problem of brand new locos for coaches that are decades old - do you then build new coaches in a few years when the Mk3s fall to pieces?

Would it be better to build new locos/coaches in the first place?

Thats one thing that would have to be looked at, or probably has been looked at.

Certainly, to me, buying the coaches seems like a good idea, but I havent looked through any figures.
They could be used for a few routes, freeing up things like 158s etc. Northern apparently short of stock, as are others, and here we have coaches with the 'must have' automatic doors!

 

[HSTEd]

Well its conceivable that if the ECML receives new EMUs to replace HSTs or whatever that the locomotives could be put to work hauling them over non electrified routes such as the ones to Aberdeen and Inverness especially if proper electrodiesels are out of the question.

 

[ainsworth74]

Well its conceivable that if the ECML receives new EMUs to replace HSTs or whatever that the locomotives could be put to work hauling them over non electrified routes such as the ones to Aberdeen and Inverness especially if proper electrodiesels are out of the question.

That would be my choice for any new rolling stock on the ECML and it would seem to be the choice of some in the industry itself or at least they would rather have this than Bi-mode IEP. But it would need (IMHO) two things: First, timing, as we would need the Mk3s to life expire at about the same time as new EMUs are delivered to the ECML. Secondly, that TRAXX (or any other locomotive) would have to be compatible in push/pull with the EMU and therefore drivable from the EMU cab at the non-loco end (as well as an auto coupler) as we don't wont to have locos running around if at all possible.

 

[HSTEd]

80 coaches are only what? 10 locomotives?
Its conceivable that journeys on the ECML to Sunderland, Aberdeen, Inverness and probably Hull will need more than that, so in that case you would only have to time the life expiry of the rolling stock against the last EMUs to be introduced.

 

[IanXC]

I quite like the Manchester-Scotland idea. Given that the proposed 350 order is a stop gap while awaiting 110mph stock it would seem to make more sense to me to use this order to cascade LM 321s or 323s, maybe to the Manchester area to enable less diesel under the wires?

 

[TDK]

A cheap way foward would be to rebogie the Irish mk 3s with ones off sleepers and redundant resturant cars
press into service underused class 67s I understand some are stored
refurb ex virgin DVT s I think there are a few still in store
that would give the train op. co.at least 6 125 mph trains to enhance services

DVT's are only rated at 110mph however your idea is 5 years late as WSMR did this and now Chiltern are also doing it without having to rebogie Irish worn out Mk3's and to be honest the refubed Mk3's Chiltern are currently using are far superior to any other trains comfort and ambience wise.

 

[Yew]

DVT's are only rated at 110mph however your idea is 5 years late as WSMR did this and now Chiltern are also doing it without having to rebogie Irish worn out Mk3's and to be honest the refubed Mk3's Chiltern are currently using are far superior to any other trains comfort and ambience wise.

those irish worn our Mk3's that are 10 years younger than our mark 3's?

 

[colchesterken]

Is Drsatan correct I understood the cl67 were underused and some were in warm store
they could be used with refurbed DVT or DBSO
and to help out with stock shortages with refurbed 90s on electric lines

on the subject of which I have had an idea how about refurbing 90s in store and to boost power run them as pairs with one traction motor on each unplugged that will give
about 7500 hp that will outperform anything on the rails up to say 120 it must be possible to squeese an extra 10 mph out of them safely to run with 9 refurbd mk3s
and a ex stored DVT

 

[HSTEd]

Still think ordering a dozen or so diesels for use with a future EMU fleet would be viable, they could haul the Mark 3s in the interim on routes like those mentioned above, Liverpool Norwich could benefit from a bunch of Mark 3s and I doubt it would hurt the journey time much with all the slack time it has.

EDIT: if you are running the Class 90s as pairs surely it would be easier to forget the DVT and top-and-tail them using the push pull wiring on the coaches?

EDIT #2: Is it too late to buy another dozen Class 67s to ensure a uniform fleet? We could probably need more than that obviously if Sunderland, Aberdeen, Inverness and other routes get improved services

 

[40086]

TRAXX locos and the Irish Mk3s sounds good

...but then you have the problem of brand new locos for coaches that are decades old - do you then build new coaches in a few years when the Mk3s fall to pieces?

Would it be better to build new locos/coaches in the first place?

What about the MK3s working with HSTs since 1976 & still in service! They will be required under current GWML to carry on for a significant length of time, not just a few years. ROSCOS currently looking at how to life extend!

The IE mk3s are significantly younger, & would certainly need a heavy refurb before UK use so the lifespan again would likely be significant!

However, the question is would IE mk3s be allowed grandfathering rights of UK Mk3s re crashworthy standards?

As someone who lived in Ireland I personally would rather they had been refurbished & retained in Ireland rather than those unpleasant, overweight & over thirsty DMUs being used on some of the long distance Irish routes!

Those Irish DMUs make Voyagers look good! I believe also some politicians criticised the outlay on them, quite rightly!

 

[sprinterguy]

EDIT #2: Is it too late to buy another dozen Class 67s to ensure a uniform fleet? We could probably need more than that obviously if Sunderland, Aberdeen, Inverness and other routes get improved services

DRS are rumoured to be purchasing a number of Vossloh Eurolight locos, which are the updated version of the class 67.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If you swapped the East Coast Inverness service onto a different hour's departure from Edinbrough to Kings Cross (can't remember which one, it currently comes through from Aberdeen) I think you can run the Sleepers and East Coast's Scottish drags with 5 locos (assuming they don't brake down).

In England, I think East Coast's services would require 4 locos for dragging. If you add Grand Central's Sunderland service, I think you need another 2 locos. Finally, I think the rest of the Open Access service on East Coast (Hull Trains and GC's Bradford trains) would add another 4 locos to the requirment.

In total, that's:

• Scot Rail sleepers and East Coast services only - 9 class 67s
• Above plus Grand Central Sunderland service - 11 class 67s
• Above plus Hull Trains and Grand Central to Bradford - 15 class 67s

15 existing locomotives working mostly away from the wires has to be cheaper and more enviromentally friendly than putting 35 5-car IEP bi-modes on East Coast. Given that East Coast only have eight off-wire services each way, those 35 sets are going to spend alot of time sitting uselessly in sidings or running under the wires.

Chiltern currently have 5 mark 3 sets I believe. If they never require more than 10 locos in service a day (more than double current arangments, since 1 of the 5 sets is apparently being refurbished) then there are 5 spare locos to replace failures. Is 5 spares in a fleet of, I think, 30 locos enough? The 67s would have to be in a neutral livery of course, and the Fife circle would have to revert to multiple unit operation.

 

[Yew]

Have there been any developments on this suggestion?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The closing dateline of 2nd September 2011 was set by Iarnrod Eireann for Expression of Interest. Of the 82 vehicles that were in this offer were 61 TSO, 10 TSOB and 11 Generator Vans.

In response to the posting by Yew, what would be the next stage that follows the Expression of Interest closing date ?

 

[TDK]

Yes, but if there's a cheaper way to get some Intercity stock up and running fairly quickly then it seems to make sense. It doesn't stop other projects going ahead.

The cost of obtaining Mk3 stock is a lot cheaper than obtaining units and the companies actually own the coaches and they are not on lease, any new build would go to the roscos so to be honest not cost effective.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

those irish worn our Mk3's that are 10 years younger than our mark 3's?

Yes, but the IE Mk3's have a different gauge and are not compatible with our stock, the cost to refurb them would be huge in comparison especially obtaining servicable bogies.

 

[fgwrich]

The cost of obtaining Mk3 stock is a lot cheaper than obtaining units and the companies actually own the coaches and they are not on lease, any new build would go to the roscos so to be honest not cost effective.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yes, but the IE Mk3's have a different gauge and are not compatible with our stock, the cost to refurb them would be huge in comparison especially obtaining servicable bogies.

Well - Only the bogies are to a different gauge - being 5 ft 3 - But, surely a cost effective way to regauge the bogies would be to strip them down and cut the frame down to size? It's an idea that i think, had reccently been mooted in Modern Railways as a viable route to regauging them...As for the compatability - It's a case of yes and no, as coupling wise yes, running in service, no - IE's Mk3s are of course running on a different voltage of power - and this is only supplied by the Gen Van unless a complete re-wiring was carried out...The offer issue's being that of the sliding plug doors too.

 

[Bastiaan]

Put them on a pair of Eco FLEXX bogies. Or am I saying something silly now?

 

[Rhydgaled]

In response to the posting by Yew, what would be the next stage that follows the Expression of Interest closing date ?

Does anyone know if there were any expressions of interest that could see the stock introduced in England, Wales or Scotland?

 

[dubscottie]

Was talking to a lad that is a CIE employee (I live in Dublin) and ALLEGEDLY there has been an offer made from Spain (they have the same gauge as Ireland).

From what he was saying, again allegedly, Part of the deal would see at least 10 surplus Class 201's being included in any deal.

So they may not be UK bound after all..

 

[jopsuk]

Your contact may not be all that. Iberian gauge is 1668mm/5ft 5 2⁄3in. Irish is 1600mm/5ft 3in. 68mm is easilly enough for derailment.

Plus there's the issue of spain being predominantly a low platform country.

 

[DarloRich]

Well - Only the bogies are to a different gauge - being 5 ft 3 - But, surely a cost effective way to regauge the bogies would be to strip them down and cut the frame down to size? It's an idea that i think, had reccently been mooted in Modern Railways as a viable route to regauging them...As for the compatability - It's a case of yes and no, as coupling wise yes, running in service, no - IE's Mk3s are of course running on a different voltage of power - and this is only supplied by the Gen Van unless a complete re-wiring was carried out...The offer issue's being that of the sliding plug doors too.

I have been told by an engineer (who is one of my collegues) who worked on the construction of these vehicles that to regauge the bogies for the UK is quite a simple task. If I understand correctly, and I am no engineer, you would not even have to change to bogie itself, just some of the parts.

He tells me the main problem (which SHOULDNT) be insurmountable is the electrical supply systems and the fact they run with genny vans to provide power and services.

 

[Yew]

Would it be possible to use the same bogies, but with the wheels moved inwards on the axles.


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Sorry for the awful drawing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

He tells me the main problem (which SHOULDNT) be insurmountable is the electrical supply systems and the fact they run with genny vans to provide power and services.

Amongst the 82 vehicles offered in this package are no less than 11 generator vans.