Is Wales more "Englicised" than Scotland ?

[Butts]

Forgive the grammar on the title

I was just wondering if members would care to comment on the above premise.

From my perspective I look at the relative failure of Plaid Cymru in electoral terms compared to the SNP.

Also The Conservative Party have recovered far better from the "97 wipeout" in Wales than they have in Scotland.

I think the last figures I saw were 500,000 English Born people living in Scotland out of a 5 million odd population or about 10% of the total. Anyone know what the relative figures are for Wales ?

Having the same legal and educational systems as the English must also have a bearing.

England and Wales also share a Cricket Team.

Are "The Men of Harlech" still there - where is the spirit of Glendower

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Anglicanised surely?

 

[Eagle]

Anglicanised surely?

Anglicized

 

[martinsh]

Anglicanised surely?

I think that means they've converted to the Church of England ?!!

 

[WestCoast]

North and Mid Wales feels very different to England in my opinion, just speaking from a cultural perspective.

The language has a role here.

 

[90019]

Anglicised

Ahem*.


*Admittedly whilst both -ise and -ize are technically correct, and originally the difference was to do with which language the word was derived from, -ise has become the standard UK English form, whilst -ize has become the standard US English form, and as such, an Americanism.

 

[Liam]

England and Wales also share a Cricket Team.

If all nations were allowed to play cricket at the very top level (test) perhaps there would be more calls for a Wales cricket team. Many Welsh born players have played for England, after all it is the England nd Wales Cricket Board. As it is the top Irish and Scottish cricketers have historically played test cricket for England e.g Douglas Jardine, Mike Denness, Eoin Morgan. Also the likes of Amjad Khan, Dirk Nannes and others have played for more than one nation.

 

[Eagle]

Ahem*.


*Admittedly whilst both -ise and -ize are technically correct, and originally the difference was to do with which language the word was derived from, -ise has become the standard UK English form, whilst -ize has become the standard US English form, and as such, an Americanism.

Not according to the Oxford English Dictionary, who use -ize consistently. (My chemistry department insists on Oxford spelling for all formal reports, being as all RSC journals use it.) Both are considered correct in Britain.

 

[4SRKT]

Wales is much less Anglicised culturally than Scotland, but politically it's the other way around. This is because culturally most of Scotland (in population terms) is as Anglo-Saxon as England is. It really grates with me seeing Gaelic language signs in places like Glasgow and Edinburgh, places where the language has never been spoken. It's an utterly pointless, vain and frankly paranoid attempt to diffentiate themselves from England. Wales OTOH is a meaningless political entity separate to England, given that Chester is the de facto 'capital'/main centre for North Wales, likewise Shrewsbury for mid-Wales. Wales has thankfully managed to retain its own language in the face of all this; indeed far more successfully than independent Ireland. Cultural flowering has little to do with political autonomy or independence IMHO.

 

[Trog]

Is the difference down to their separate histories? Wales was never a Kingdom in its own right like Scotland was. Just a semi independent Princedom, the ruler of which was nominally subject to the English King right back to the 800's. Then in the 1280's King Edward the First treated the Welsh to the full benefit, of English rule, and Wales has been ruled as a part of England ever since. So that now it is not so much a separate nation as a mildly amusing regional accent.

Scotland however remained independent longer, even if the infighting and murders among its royals were reminiscent of some of the bloodier Shakespearian plays. Junction with England eventually happened, but slowly a bit at a time, rather than all at once and by force like Wales. Firstly a shared royal family after James King of Scotland succeeded Elisabeth the First and became King of both countries. Then after an attempt to set up a Scottish Empire with overseas colonies in imitation of England had resulted in national bankruptcy, came political union. Where the Scots traded access to the commerce of the now re-branded British Empire. For a merged sovereignty that protected England from the threat of French invasion via Scotland.

This longer independent existence reaching into the early part of the modern age, allowed the Scots time to develop national structures such as a full legal system. The slow staged and negotiated merger with England then allowed these structures to continue rather than being simply replaced by their English equivalents. These structures then helped keep alive the idea that Scotland was different and a constituent nation in its own right, where as the smaller Wales without such structures was simply absorbed.





Note to our Celtic friends the above is not intended to be entirely serious.

 

[43021HST]

Forgive the grammar on the title

I was just wondering if members would care to comment on the above premise.

From my perspective I look at the relative failure of Plaid Cymru in electoral terms compared to the SNP.

Also The Conservative Party have recovered far better from the "97 wipeout" in Wales than they have in Scotland.

I think the last figures I saw were 500,000 English Born people living in Scotland out of a 5 million odd population or about 10% of the total. Anyone know what the relative figures are for Wales ?

Having the same legal and educational systems as the English must also have a bearing.

England and Wales also share a Cricket Team.

Are "The Men of Harlech" still there - where is the spirit of Glendower

If some welsh militants heard you saying that in a pub, you would surely get beaten up

 

[richw]

From time spent in cardiff, (a lot of it!) Cardiff Newport areas is very un-welsh in my opinion, its not till you go further west or up to the valleys, brecons etc you find it to be more true welsh! Just my opinion from a couple of years spent in cardiff

 

[185]

Youre all wrong.

It's Englishised.
Englicide.
Englishish.

Oh forget it boyo. Diolch.

 

[Hydro]

Youre all wrong.

It's Englishised.
Englicide.
Englishish.

Oh forget it boyo. Diolch.

Englicide is what tends to happen at a lot of World Cup penalty shoot outs.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You must remember it was only in 1707 that Scotland acceded to the strictures contained within the Act of Union.

 

[Greenback]

Is the difference down to their separate histories? Wales was never a Kingdom in its own right like Scotland was. Just a semi independent Princedom, the ruler of which was nominally subject to the English King right back to the 800's. Then in the 1280's King Edward the First treated the Welsh to the full benefit, of English rule, and Wales has been ruled as a part of England ever since. So that now it is not so much a separate nation as a mildly amusing regional accent.

Scotland however remained independent longer, even if the infighting and murders among its royals were reminiscent of some of the bloodier Shakespearian plays. Junction with England eventually happened, but slowly a bit at a time, rather than all at once and by force like Wales. Firstly a shared royal family after James King of Scotland succeeded Elisabeth the First and became King of both countries. Then after an attempt to set up a Scottish Empire with overseas colonies in imitation of England had resulted in national bankruptcy, came political union. Where the Scots traded access to the commerce of the now re-branded British Empire. For a merged sovereignty that protected England from the threat of French invasion via Scotland.

This longer independent existence reaching into the early part of the modern age, allowed the Scots time to develop national structures such as a full legal system. The slow staged and negotiated merger with England then allowed these structures to continue rather than being simply replaced by their English equivalents. These structures then helped keep alive the idea that Scotland was different and a constituent nation in its own right, where as the smaller Wales without such structures was simply absorbed.

Note to our Celtic friends the above is not intended to be entirely serious.

Despite the jocularity you make some very good and interesting points.

Any analysis of where Scotland and Wales are today must take the historical context into account. Scotland and England came togethe rin an act of union, whereas the Welsh tribes were abosrbed into England. therein lies the root of the differences we see in terms of the constitutions today.

From time spent in cardiff, (a lot of it!) Cardiff Newport areas is very un-welsh in my opinion, its not till you go further west or up to the valleys, brecons etc you find it to be more true welsh! Just my opinion from a couple of years spent in cardiff

I don't think that is entirely true (but it msotly is!). The urban areas of Wales have traditionally been less inclined towards speaking Welsh and supporting independence. I don't think that means that they are any less Welsh in terms of how the inhabitants feel. The maind ifference is how that dientity is expressed.

The heavy industry of South Wales also attracted a lot of what we would now call economic migrants from rural areas to the industrial towns and cities. My own ancestors came to South Wales from Somerset and Gloucestershire in mid Victorian times. The elgacy of this is that the more rural areas tend to have retained a more fierce spirit of Welsh pride, language and culture. And those things are the most visible aspect of Welshness that a visitor is likely to notice.

 

[Butts]

Despite the jocularity you make some very good and interesting points.

Any analysis of where Scotland and Wales are today must take the historical context into account. Scotland and England came togethe rin an act of union, whereas the Welsh tribes were abosrbed into England. therein lies the root of the differences we see in terms of the constitutions today.



I don't think that is entirely true (but it msotly is!). The urban areas of Wales have traditionally been less inclined towards speaking Welsh and supporting independence. I don't think that means that they are any less Welsh in terms of how the inhabitants feel. The maind ifference is how that dientity is expressed.

The heavy industry of South Wales also attracted a lot of what we would now call economic migrants from rural areas to the industrial towns and cities. My own ancestors came to South Wales from Somerset and Gloucestershire in mid Victorian times. The elgacy of this is that the more rural areas tend to have retained a more fierce spirit of Welsh pride, language and culture. And those things are the most visible aspect of Welshness that a visitor is likely to notice.

So bearing all this in mind would you say there is a latent demand for Independence in Wales or is it confined to the "Western Fringes" along with the language.

 

[mumrar]

So bearing all this in mind would you say there is a latent demand for Independence in Wales or is it confined to the "Western Fringes" along with the language.

Depends how you define independence. Both Scotland and Wales would be reckless to push for more freedom, particularly financially. At the moment they get the luxury of passing on bills to the larger amount of English taxpayers, for things the English can't get for free. A bit of the having of cake and eating it I feel.

 

[Butts]

Depends how you define independence. Both Scotland and Wales would be reckless to push for more freedom, particularly financially. At the moment they get the luxury of passing on bills to the larger amount of English taxpayers, for things the English can't get for free. A bit of the having of cake and eating it I feel.

Even within England there is disparity between the amount allocated to different parts in relation to the taxation raised.

The "south east" of England incuding London probably subsidises the rest of England and arguably the rest of the UK.

Overall spending per head is actually higher in Northern Ireland than in Scotland.

 

[Greenback]

So bearing all this in mind would you say there is a latent demand for Independence in Wales or is it confined to the "Western Fringes" along with the language.

I would say what I have said previously - the interest in independence is rising, and is strongest amongst younger people. My parents generation see themselves as British, my young relatives say they are Welsh, speak Welsh and want Wales and its people to make their own decisions.

There will come a time...!

Depends how you define independence. Both Scotland and Wales would be reckless to push for more freedom, particularly financially. At the moment they get the luxury of passing on bills to the larger amount of English taxpayers, for things the English can't get for free. A bit of the having of cake and eating it I feel.

Well, that is what the media likes to peddle anyway!

Greenback Glyndwr over and out!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would say what I have said previously - the interest in independence is rising, and is strongest amongst younger people. My parents generation see themselves as British, my young relatives say they are Welsh, speak Welsh and want Wales and its people to make their own decisions.

The place that I found to be the most Welsh-speaking that I have visited, listening to people ordering goods in shops, talking to each other, etc, was in central Ynys Mon in the village of Llanerchymedd. The Welsh language seems to have a stronghold there.

I do find Welsh and Gaelic to be fascinating languages, with their long historical basis.

 

[Greenback]

There are quite few Welsh speaking areas ,where I live being one of them! It's common to hear people speaking Welsh in the street, pub, supermarket and even on the train!

Once you go further west it's a bit more anglicised again. Swansea, meanwhile, is a Norman town, and has never been particularly Welsh speaking, though the Swansea Valley towns and villages are.

My favourite area for hearing Welsh is the Cambrian Coast. The accent around there is particularly pleasing to my ear!