shinkansen1966
Member
At the moment, there is no advantage to having an m-ticket.
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Chiltern Railways m-ticket purchased, phone stolen
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At the moment, there is no advantage to having an m-ticket.
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LondonJohn
Member
If there was an option of say £1-£2 insurance that would cover a lost ticket or missed departure that wouldnt other be covered I would pay the extra for peace of mind on tickets say of over £30. (I have had 3 of those in the last 10 days and once picked the tickets up were kept under lock and key!)
I have fortunately never lost a ticket, or missed an Advanced booked train but would certainly consider it. Maybe extra revenue for the TOC.
No. Print@Home tickets are used by a few TOCs. You can print them off as many times as you like.
The reason the m-ticket cannot be replaced or duplicated is because then there would potentially be two valid tickets in circulation, even though the customer has only paid for one.
M-ticketing is inherently flawed in my view. However, the only reason it exists on the railway (which it is not suitable for whatsoever) is because customers relentlessly ask for it, "because that's what the airlines do, why can't you be like them?".
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There are a number of advantages:
No need to carry pieces of paper as tickets
Less chance of loss (though not a nil chance!)
Ticket is delivered instantly without the need to collect or wait for post
Reassurance that trains are the same as planes, even though they aren't....oops.
The disadvantages to the system outweigh the benefits, though.
You would consider losing a ticket or missing train for which you had an advanced ticket, just to generate revenue for the TOC?!
Fgw booking system gives this option after selecting your journey,
Not at all. When this has happened to me I have obtained a replacement ticket - either by asking them to send me another one, or collecting one from the box office. Admittedly, since the ticket is for a numbered seat it is easier for them to do so. Of course, they have at the back of their minds that they might want me to continue to buy tickets for their theatre in the future, and that issuing a replacement ticket costs them nothing, whereas TOCs regard their paying customers as a captive market.
RJ
Established Member
The terms and conditions of travel are made available prior to the voluntary purchase of any ticket, or voluntary entry to any railway premisis. They've even put in writing the responsibilities the customer has (because common sense needs defining these days). If one cannot keep to those responsibilites, how can you then have a go at the TOC?
SouthStand
Member
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Personally, there would've have to be a good incentive for me to use e-ticketing. As long as you can collect your advance tickets from the machine a few days in before that's the way to go as far as i'm concerned.
Of course if there is no collect facility at your local station than that's a different matter.
Of course if there is no collect facility at your local station than that's a different matter.
RJ
Established Member
I think that the decision has already been made. Check out the NRCoC and any T&Cs related to ticket purchase. What relevance does M&S has? Are they going to replace my shopping for free if I lose it after leaving the shop?
I don't see why the railway should foot the bill because of a lack of responsibility on a passenger's part, especially when the T&Cs are clearly viewable prior to purchase.
RJ
Established Member
In that case, seek an alternative that suits you better, like buying the ticket at the first opportunity on the day of travel. Personaly, I don't like the T&Cs of Advance tickets, so I buy Anytime Singles/Returns instead. That's the way it works.
I thought I had already said that we all know what the T&Cs are. The debate is whether they should be changed, or at least not enforced.
It could be argued that you haven't actually 'received the goods' once the ticket has been issued. The transaction hasn't been completed until the passenger has reached the destination. When you walk out of M&S your transaction has been completed, however you are allowed to go back and enjoy a generous refund and exchange policy, above what they are required to do by law.
It may actually be desirable for the railway to enforce the regulations harshly if indeed more cars are taken off the road as a result. That would apply if customers lost by poor customer relations are outweighed by being able to lower fares as a result of the cheaper customer service and people paying to replace their own tickets.
But you haven't bought a TICKET you've bought THE RIGHT TO TRAVEL. The ticket merely demonstrates to a guard or other staff member that you've purchased that right.
I go to M and S. I order goods to be delivered and get a "ticket" in return.
When the delivery guy arrives he demands to see my ticket. I can't find it. So, he insists I pay for the goods again. Despite the fact it's possible to prove by other means that I have paid for them. Do you think I'd shop at M and S ever again?
Or, I put a suit in to clean at the dry cleaners. Again, I lose my ticket. Are they entitled to keep the suit which may be worth, say, £200?
No you'd take action against them for retaining your property which would technically be theft
You do not purchase the right to travel.
You purchase a ticket, which alone, gives you that right. If you lose the ticket, you are not entitled to travel. Therefore, you must not lose the ticket.
If anything else other than a ticket is proof of entitlement to travel, then tickets would never be issued, as they'd be redundant.
Think carefully about how the railway would operate if anyone could just say "I bought a ticket, I just don't have it, look I paid for it guv (shows receipt/bank statement/booking confirmation)", and then be allowed to travel anyway. Meanwhile somebody else has the "real" ticket.... :roll:
Remember that most tickets are transferable by their nature, just like a banknote.
You purchase a ticket, which alone, gives you that right. If you lose the ticket, you are not entitled to travel. Therefore, you must not lose the ticket.
If anything else other than a ticket is proof of entitlement to travel, then tickets would never be issued, as they'd be redundant.
Think carefully about how the railway would operate if anyone could just say "I bought a ticket, I just don't have it, look I paid for it guv (shows receipt/bank statement/booking confirmation)", and then be allowed to travel anyway. Meanwhile somebody else has the "real" ticket.... :roll:
Remember that most tickets are transferable by their nature, just like a banknote.
hairyhandedfool
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You don't purchase a ticket, the ticket remains the property of the railway, it is a receipt for payment of the fare. It is proof that you have paid.
First class
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You purchase a "fare". A ticket is evidence of payment for that "fare".
Solent&Wessex
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You then use that "receipt" (i.e. a ticket) to obtain the services you have paid for. If you loose that "receipt" you are not entitled to those services, in the same way that if you wanted a refund on something you brought in a shop your refund rights would be different depending on whether you had the receipt that you were given at the time of purchase, or not.
it's not quite the same thing; to get a refund in a shop you need a 'proof of purchase' - this does not need to be the original till receipt.
If you can prove you paid by other means then that is considered acceptable.
If you can prove you paid by other means then that is considered acceptable.
Tickets are non transferable, stated on the reverse!
I said, by their nature, not the TnCs!
A member of staff presented with a ticket has no way of knowing if the ticket holder is the purchaser.
shinkansen1966
Member
Got a new iPhone. Downloaded Chiltern Railways app again. Logged in with my usual user name and password, and m-ticket not on app. Visited the 'manage my bookings' page of the Chiltern Railways web site. Unable to re-download m-ticket.
I have completely lost my m-ticket.
From my own experience, I will not be advising m-tickets to anyone.
I have completely lost my m-ticket.
From my own experience, I will not be advising m-tickets to anyone.
The people who make the m-ticket system (masabi), will
1. not want adverse publicity
2. not wish to have their name Masabi, associated with stolen tickets
3. not wish to have their brand associated with poor security.
http://www.masabi.com/operators/security/ shows how seriously they take security as they, Masabi, roll-out their m-ticket product to other TOCs.
You may find them surprisingly sympathetic, if you contact them http://www.masabi.com/about-us/contact-us/ and draw their attention to this thread which ranks highly in google for "stolen m-ticket".
Masabi may wish to assist you or Chiltern.
1. not want adverse publicity
2. not wish to have their name Masabi, associated with stolen tickets
3. not wish to have their brand associated with poor security.
http://www.masabi.com/operators/security/ shows how seriously they take security as they, Masabi, roll-out their m-ticket product to other TOCs.
You may find them surprisingly sympathetic, if you contact them http://www.masabi.com/about-us/contact-us/ and draw their attention to this thread which ranks highly in google for "stolen m-ticket".
Masabi may wish to assist you or Chiltern.
Honestly, these guys will not want to know. :roll:
They've made the m-ticket exceptionally secure (to the TOC), as the OP has found out. I am sure Chiltern are more than happy with what they've paid for!
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That'll really help, because millions of people Google 'Stolen m-ticket' every day, don't they?
I think Masabi will be sensitive to public perception of their product.
I think it is a significant weakness of the Masabi system, that data is held locally at the phone and the central database they have for validation purposes cannot be utilised to sort problems like this.
I would anticipate they would want a successful resolution.
I think it is a significant weakness of the Masabi system, that data is held locally at the phone and the central database they have for validation purposes cannot be utilised to sort problems like this.
I would anticipate they would want a successful resolution.
I am quite surprised that if you log in to your account, you can't view your m-ticket again.
Imagine if I checked in via my BA app to get my boarding card with QR code and then couldn't access it from another phone/computer if the battery simply ran out? BA (and others) have clearly thought about that possibility.
You wouldn't need to have your phone stolen to be able to end up in possibly the same situation; Battery dies, phone crashes/gets corrupt, app won't load etc. Yes, the argument could be that this isn't any concern to the railway, which is true, but at the very least I'd expect to be able to borrow another phone and log in there to produce it - or get access to it later on to make a claim (less an admin fee) - given the benefit that if I was telling the truth, that ticket could never have been scanned and was clearly not used by anyone else.
Or, you just say 'that's the way it is' which is fine too - but that ensures that I will never, ever, use this as a way of buying a ticket. What's more, a lot of other people wouldn't either - which makes the business case for Masabi look a little shaky, suggesting they will (or should) take an interest in this problem.
Imagine if I checked in via my BA app to get my boarding card with QR code and then couldn't access it from another phone/computer if the battery simply ran out? BA (and others) have clearly thought about that possibility.
You wouldn't need to have your phone stolen to be able to end up in possibly the same situation; Battery dies, phone crashes/gets corrupt, app won't load etc. Yes, the argument could be that this isn't any concern to the railway, which is true, but at the very least I'd expect to be able to borrow another phone and log in there to produce it - or get access to it later on to make a claim (less an admin fee) - given the benefit that if I was telling the truth, that ticket could never have been scanned and was clearly not used by anyone else.
Or, you just say 'that's the way it is' which is fine too - but that ensures that I will never, ever, use this as a way of buying a ticket. What's more, a lot of other people wouldn't either - which makes the business case for Masabi look a little shaky, suggesting they will (or should) take an interest in this problem.
I bought a Chiltern Advance ticket this morning. I thought about using an m-ticket but decided against it, partly based on the tale of woe in this thread, but also because I wouldn't get any cashback.
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I presume having the boarding pass on a phone is purely for convenience so you can scan it at the gate. If for whatever reason you can't produce it, you can just go to the check-in desk and get a paper boarding pass printed. So it isn't quite so catastrophic as it seems it can be with a Chiltern m-ticket.
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I presume having the boarding pass on a phone is purely for convenience so you can scan it at the gate. If for whatever reason you can't produce it, you can just go to the check-in desk and get a paper boarding pass printed. So it isn't quite so catastrophic as it seems it can be with a Chiltern m-ticket.
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shinkansen1966
Member
Just emailed Chiltern Railways, Masabi and DfT franchising deparment, complaning about the shortcomings of this m-ticket technology.
Correct. It's another way of receiving your boarding pass, which could also be sent as PDF to be printed out. You could have a printed pass AND the QR code on your phone, which is what I do in case the phone crashes at the most awkward moment! If all else failed, they could re-issue a boarding card by checking my details on a computer.
In other words, they retain the data at all times that can be checked; the code on the phone merely speeds things up to stop everyone having to be checked manually. Nothing is sent to my phone and then unavailable elsewhere.
In the case of this m-ticket, it seems like there's no option to get a backup or replacement. That's perhaps an accepted way to do things, but would put me right off using it.
I review mobile phones for a living, and have had many problems at the most inopportune moments! Sods law and all that. It's unfortunate that I've recommended e-ticketing/m-tickets over the years, having seen the very early setups that allowed you to print at home, but would be wary of using this one.
A side issue here - but still relevant. The main problem I think is that tickets are non-transferrable, but that this cannot easily be enforced (if at all). What happens if an employer buys tickets for an employee without naming the traveller? That is, 1 of 3 possible people is going to a meeting but at the time it's not clear which one? Or the person who was going to go is off sick and so someone else goes instead? Is that a breach of the "non-transferrable" rule?
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