• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Train drivers cross borders?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
10
Location
Lomas de Zamora, Buenos Aires, Argentina
Hello fellows, I've been discussing with my friends about border-crossing trains. Here yesterday we had a little hazard in the first service run between Argentina and Uruguay (run by an Argentinian operator), because uruguayan laws say that any train running on their tracks must have an uruguayan driver. The problem was solved and finally the train kept on running inside Uruguay.
An international train around here is quite uncommon, but in Europe it happens everyday! Which are the regulations on this topic? Every time a train crosses a border it must change the driver or not?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,518
Location
Southampton
I don't think this is the case in the UK. (The UK is pretty much one country anyway... ;))

IIRC the Eurotunnel services have a mixture, and they can't stop the train in the middle of the tunnel for safety reasons, so the same driver is used for the whole journey?
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
There are different rules in Europe, but primarily the Driver must sign the route and the traction.

Some trains do change crews at Border points or stations close to the Border but for operational reasons not always associated with a prohibition on the crew working through.

One of the main lines in Lithuania actually passes into Latvia via an extended loop on which there are no stations and because of this there is no crew changeover or customs.
 

Schnellzug

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2011
Messages
2,926
Location
Evercreech Junction
Eurostar use both British and French drivers, I believe, who work right through (and presumably Belgain as well), and I think Thalys must do as well, since they run non-stop through to Brussels. And I'm pretty sure that DB drivers work throughout on the ICE services to Paris, since I'm pretty sure SNCF drivers wouldn't sign those.
 

causton

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
5,504
Location
Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
One of the main lines in Lithuania actually passes into Latvia via an extended loop on which there are no stations and because of this there is no crew changeover or customs.

What would happen if the train were to break down or have an accident? Would they be escorted back to Lithuania by the police and any injured people go to a Lithuanian hospital? :o
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
They're in the Schengen area, so it shouldn't really matter.
 

N Levers

Member
Joined
22 Dec 2010
Messages
308
One of the main lines in Lithuania actually passes into Latvia via an extended loop on which there are no stations and because of this there is no crew changeover or customs.

have you got a googlemap link for that?
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,702
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000

WestCoast

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,665
Location
South Yorkshire
Quite common in mainland Europe for local services to do just that, between the Schengen countries. Borders become less significant.

For example, there is a Dutch regional train that travels from Hengelo (the Netherlands) to Bad Bentheim (Germany). Equally, there is a DB Regio train that travels from Aachen (Germany) to Heerlen (the Netherlands) serving 'foreign stops'.
 

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,518
Location
Southampton
Zoe said:
Is there a change of driver though on the Enterprise when it crosses the border from the UK to Ireland?

I was refering to Britain in my comment earlier, I should have been more clear. Presumably any situation where a crew change cannot easily happen would warrant having the same crew for the whole journey?
 

jamesontheroad

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2009
Messages
2,233
Location
Umeå, Sweden
Is there a change of driver though on the Enterprise when it crosses the border from the UK to Ireland?

No, same driver and crew throughout; if there are eight round trips a day, NIR and IE each provide four crews for four roundtrips. NIR and IE "own" four of the eight locomotives and half of the coaching stock each; NIR maintains the carriages and IE maintain the locomotives.

Hopping from another thread in the International forum, there's a few examples from the US/Canada border. Three Amtrak trains cross the border: the Cascades (Seattle/Vancouver), the Maple Leaf (NYC/Toronto) and the Adirondack (NYC/Montréal). The Cascades and the Adirondack are all Amtrak operated, and the only intermediate stop the train makes in Canada between Montréal and the border is to pick up southbound and drop off northbound.

The Maple Leaf, oddly enough, covers a significant distance along the busy VIA Rail Ontario corridor, so once it reaches Niagara Falls and Canadian customs and border checks are complete, the entire Amtrak crew leave the train (and are lodged in a hotel locally until the return train the next day). A VIA Rail crew board and take over and run it the rest of the way as a VIA Rail service, making intermediate stops through to Toronto. The crew even swap out the entire café car stock and replace it with products sourced by VIA. I believe that Amtrak has long been tied into a Pepsi-Co exclusive contract, so this is the only time you can buy a Coca Cola on an Amtrak train, if that really matters to you :lol:
 

Gordon

Member
Joined
11 Feb 2011
Messages
1,127
Location
Surrey
There are two separate themes emerging here.

train crews

To answer the original theme, I am not aware of any hard and fast rules. In Europe there are certainly very few instances where trains crews would be absolutely banned from crossing the frontier into another country. Even when the iron curtain was in place, train drivers crossed physical borders, but there is an important element to remember here and that is the difference between the physical border (“line in the sand”) between two countries, and the railway border, whereby there is either one station in one of the two countries, where all changeovers take place or a border station in each country either side of the physical border.

Traditionally, locomotive hauled trains more often than not changed locomotives at these border stations, so the crews would naturally change. However not many of these border station are exactly on the border line, so in most cases the railway administration from one country operated the line across the border as far as the first station in the neighbouring country so train crews travel in ‘foreign’ territory for some distance. These distances can be quite long, for example French railways run as far as Geneva Cornavin in Switzerland, and the SNCF-operated route runs through 15 km of Swiss territory.

Modane (France – Italy). SNCF loco and driver arrive from France at Modane which is 12km inside France but is the meeting point of French and Italian railway administrations. At Modane, an Italian loco with Italian crew take over the train.

Nowadays this is increasingly changing as locomotives and high speed train sets become increasingly interoperable. Nevertheless, in many cases the even where the loco stays the same, the crew is often changed. However as has already been said with reference to Thalys and Eurostar there are some services that now cross borders non-stop. As I understand it the DB and TGV trains on the East Europeen high speed line (Paris – Frankfurt etc) run with mixed crews.

Corridor lines

The second theme is that of ‘corridor’ lines. This was started with the mention of a line in Lithuania/Latvia, but this type of line exists/has existed all over the world. In Europe there are lots of examples, because wars and treaties down the ages have changed borders.

Examples of lines I know well (not all are still open to passengers) are:
Medyka – Kroscienko* (Polish train running through Ukraine – was all in Poland when the railways was built.
Gorlitz – Zittau* (German train running through Poland – was all in Germany when the railway was built)
Liberec – Varnsdorf (Czech train running through Germany)
Garmisch – Kempten (German train running through Austria)
Schaffhausen (Switzerland) area. Particularly complex area where on one line German trains run through Switzerland and on another route Swiss trains run through a bit of Germany.
Wiener Neustadt – Oberpullendorf (Austrian trains ruining through Hungary – was all on e country when the railways were built but later became an iron curtain border.

Even these lies are of two types, either closed trains and no stations (as was the case during the communist era on iron curtain borders, or open trains and stations where both countries are ‘open’ (eg Schaffhausen above).

A superb web site covering all this is Bueker:

http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/








.
 

richw

Veteran Member
Joined
10 Jun 2010
Messages
11,528
Location
Liskeard
In the EU there is no issue as EU citizens, are permitted by free trade to work throughout anywhere in the EU, i assume this isnt the case in other parts of the world where the right to work isnt so flexible for foreign nationals
 

btrs

Member
Joined
24 Jan 2009
Messages
8
Location
Belgium
In Europe there are lots of examples, because wars and treaties down the ages have changed borders.

Another good example is the so-called Vennbahn: originally located in Germany. After WW I and the Versailles Treaty in which Belgium annexed some German communities (Eupen, Malmedy, ..), the line now crossed the new Belgo-German border 5 times. To avoid border checks each time, the rail line, the stations and the technical installations were declared Belgian territory. Some German communities between the rail line and the real Belgian border were now exclaves, as one had to cross 3 meters of Belgium (Vennbahn) to get there.

In 2008, the Vennbahn was dismantled and some local politicians suggested this might have international consequences: Germany could claim the former railbedding (Belgian territory) as there was no line anymore, and connect its exclaves back to the mainland. But in EU/Schengen-days where borders are not that important anymore, Germany said that the Versailles Treaty and the following 1956 Belgo-German treaty concerning the West-German border will remain valid, so nothing changed.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/deutschland/belgien-behaelt-gebiete-in-deutschland/1138528.html

A bike lane will now be constructed on the former rail bedding. This might however still have international consequences: what if you're a German cyclist on his way to one of the German exclaves, but suffer a injury or accident on the Belgian bike lane :?: Some people might not even know the bike lane is Belgian territory, and will treat it like a domestic incident, while it should be handled as an international incident. Paint the bike lane in tri-colour or put old-fashioned border poles again ? :lol: Anyway, it doesn't seem properly handled to me, is it really that difficult to amend the treaty or agree on a new treaty that replaces the previous one ? Or is this all handled at European level now ?

Edit: some pictures and maps, this will make the situation more clear:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=80617260&postcount=4559
http://blog.katania.be/2009/11/mapping-belgium’s-absurd-borders/
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top