Passengers sick of TOC excuses

[hairyhandedfool]

A station is where "something" stops. Eg, the stations of the cross are where Jesus' cross stopped. A police station is where policemen drink tea and eat doughbnuts. A lifeboat station is where lifeboats are kept when not out at sea. A bus station is where buses congregate between journeys.
So, "train station" is a more logical usage than "railway station" as trains stop there - even though it looks like an Americanism - though the Americans tended to use the word "depot" more often than "station".

Petrol Station?

.... without realising that the fact they're stuck is that everything fail safes....

A failsafe device fails safe.

 

[mallard]

and everyone needs to use an agreed list of phrases

No they don't. Train crew are intelligent people too! They can explain things in their own words, given a few guidelines.

Using "an agreed list of phrases" is part of what causes the problem in the first place! Passengers just hear the "same old excuse as last time", word-for-word!

 

[Schnellzug]

No - I agree with you there. "Operational incident" grinds my gears each time I hear it. It is too vague, even for the general public. However it is sometimes the only thing that can be said to a train full of passengers, short of lying. Would you tell 500 people that your driver had passed a signal at danger?

A basic description of the problem would be much better in most instances.

Indeed, it would probably not be the best idea to be completely honest there. The trouble, though, with using "incident" as such an all-purpose phrase is that, if people know that it's used to cover accidents & so on, then people will tend to assume a worst case scenario, even if it's just a report of trespassers. Not least, i expect, because it adds a bit of excitement to the day.

 

[Flamingo]

That's not enough. It gives all the reasons, but doesn't determine which exact one it is. I'd be outraged and on the phone to the Daily Mail after hearing that long list of feeble excuses.

I am sure people hearing signal failure / fault must then think that this is potentially dangerous, without realising that the fact they're stuck is that everything fail safes. Perhaps announcements should simply state "the signal in front of us has defaulted to red for safety reasons and the cause is being investigated".

That then means nobody will want to go until things are confirmed safe, which could shut them up. They will also feel a little safer and more secure.

The point is that until the line has been inspected (which may take 20-30 minutes) nobody knows which it is. If I'm sitting on a train in the middle of nowhere, all I'm going to be told is "Track Circuit Failure", because when the driver rings the signaller, that may be all the signaller is going to have time to tell him, as the signaller is trying to sort out the problem, which is better "customer service" than discussing the in's and out's of it all with every one of the 10-15 trains ringing in.

Some people will accept your announcement. Some will accept "Track Circuit Failure". Some will listen to mine, and still want to know more, which information is not available.

To put this into perspective, I wonder how many people ring the highways agency when they are stuck in a jam, to find out why they are being delayed? How much information can be fitted on a motorway display screen?

However, with the Railway, for some people, no amount of information is enough, and not being funny, members of forums like this are the ones who will want (and demand) every last possible piece of information, whether relevant or not.

When I'm on a disrupted train, I will make announcements and walk through, but my priority in doing that is to find passengers who have a real problem (not just inconvenience), and try to find a plan B for them. Someone who is going to miss a flight, connection or important appointment is more of a priority than spending time with someone who just wants to know for "interest value". However, the ones who complain loudest in my experience are those who are just annoyed at the inconvenience of their life not running exactly to plan.

I have to say, though, I would find that less than 1% of passengers in these situations do behave in a totally unreasonable manner. Admittedly, on a crowded HST that is four people kicking off, and they will be distracting me from those who may have a real need, but just are not so vociferous.

I can give numerous examples.

 

[DarloRich]

No they don't. Train crew are intelligent people too! They can explain things in their own words, given a few guidelines.

Using "an agreed list of phrases" is part of what causes the problem in the first place! Passengers just hear the "same old excuse as last time", word-for-word!

thats what i mean - clear guidelines ( sorry - wrong phrase)

 

[mallard]

A basic description of the problem would be much better in most instances.

No it wouldn't. In certain instances, such as where a potential safety incident has happened within the control of the railway, then sure, don't go into details. Where it's trespassers, person hit by train, broken down train ahead, issue with the current train, etc. tell us!

In fact, on train staff are in my experience usually very good at this. I've heard announcements of "a trespasser", "track circuit failure", "fault with the driver's door", "late running train ahead", etc. I once heard an announcement on EMT explaining that due to an earlier train fault, our service (booked as a Meridian) had to be run by an HST that couldn't keep the timings!

I've even overheard train crew complaining that the signaller has let a slow freight out ahead of us (this wasn't an announcement, but the conductor having a conversation with a passenger who I gathered also worked in the railway).

It's the station announcements that are usually pathetically useless, often because they're automated.

 

[Flamingo]

No they don't. Train crew are intelligent people too! They can explain things in their own words, given a few guidelines.

Using "an agreed list of phrases" is part of what causes the problem in the first place! Passengers just hear the "same old excuse as last time", word-for-word!

Don't. We have "script books" issued at regular intervals, and I cringe when reading them (and leave them in my locker). Mind you, some colleagues are more articulate than others, and giving some of them a script is a better idea than leaving then to grunt "It's all gone tit's up, I don't know what's wrong, so don't bother asking me".

 

[londonbridge]

Couple of days ago I heard an announcement apologising for the cancellation of a Gatwick Express "due to no driver being available".

 

[Flamingo]

Couple of days ago I heard an announcement apologising for the cancellation of a Gatwick Express "due to no driver being available".

S*** happens

 

[northwichcat]

The excuse which annoys me most is 'late running train crew' as to the public that means the driver was late for work etc. In reality it generally means that the last train the driver worked is running late and until he/she gets there their nextvtrain will be held.

If the announcement was more specific e.g. "The guard is running late due to the late running of an earlier service" then it would be misleading to average Joe.

 

[Greenback]

There are two quite different scenarios when it comes to delay and disruption. Passengers who are at the station may have a choice about how to make their journey. They want to know when it's likely that their train might arrive, so they can decide whether to take an alternative route, catch a bus, or decide not to travel at all. They ar eless interested in the causes of the delay.

Passengers who are already on a train have slightly different needs. They want to know as much as possible about the cause of the delay and the likely effect this will have on their journey. On train announcements are normally far better than station announcements, which are often automated and irritating, but they aren;t always made.

An example is the start of the single line section at Cockett west of Swansea. Westbound Milford Haven and Carmarthen trains have to stop, and can sometimes be held there for several minutes when the eastbound service from Pembroke Dock is running late (which it frequently does due to the further stretches of single line on the route). Announcements are rarely made, which is fine for regular passengers and staff who are all too aware of the situation, but other passengers start fidgetting, mumbling and worrying that we may be stopped for ages.

It's usually people like me who have to inform people of the situation, that the other train must be in the single line section already or the chances are that we would have been allowed on to the section first. An announcement along the lines of 'We are being held at a signal for a few minutes while we wait for a late running train to pass us' would help everyone know that there was nothing wrong. In fairness, some guards do make an announcement, but by no means all.

 

[The North Briton]

If the announcement was more specific e.g. "The guard is running late due to the late running of an earlier service" then it would be misleading to average Joe.

In which case, the delay should be ascribed to the root cause which delayed the earlier train. Although this can be stretching a point when the original delay was snow in the Scottish Highlands, when its a beautiful sunny day in England.

Incidentally, there seems to be general ignorance (including on this forum) that the list of reasons that can be quoted (at least in message form) is prescribed by ATOC at industry level, so it's a bit unfair to blame the TOCs, especially as more and more passengers are getting delay information directly from the TOCs website or via NRE, rather than from the traincrew.
Apparently a 'points failure' is too technical an explanation for the general public, which is why 'a problem with lineside equipment' is on the approved list. Curiously, there is no official reason that can be given for 'signaller error' or 'bad regulation'!

 

[AlterEgo]

No it wouldn't. In certain instances, such as where a potential safety incident has happened within the control of the railway, then sure, don't go into details. Where it's trespassers, person hit by train, broken down train ahead, issue with the current train, etc. tell us!

In fact, on train staff are in my experience usually very good at this. I've heard announcements of "a trespasser", "track circuit failure", "fault with the driver's door", "late running train ahead", etc. I once heard an announcement on EMT explaining that due to an earlier train fault, our service (booked as a Meridian) had to be run by an HST that couldn't keep the timings!

Apologies - That's what I mean by a basic description. It ought to be in layman's terms.

 

[IanXC]

We are held up due to a track circuit failure ahead. Do I say

1. "Sorry folks, we have a Track circuit failure ahead",

2. "Sorry folks, we are being held because of a Signalling fault" (which it is, a signal is red for no obvious reason)

I've heard, "we're being delayed due to a type of signalling fault called a track circuit failure, I expect we'll be moving again in the next few minutes". Which I thought was quite good as it covers an explanation that everyone will understand, but also gives more information for those passengers who want more detail.

 

[Schnellzug]

I've heard, "we're being delayed due to a type of signalling fault called a track circuit failure, I expect we'll be moving again in the next few minutes". Which I thought was quite good as it covers an explanation that everyone will understand, but also gives more information for those passengers who want more detail.

"in the meantime, here are a few selections from our extensive repertoire of automated annoucements. PLEASE NOTE THAT SMOKING IS NOT PERMITTED/CLOSED CIRCUIT TELEVISION IS IN USE/YOU MUST BUY A TICKET... etc."

 

[IanXC]

I have complained about this at Manchester Victoria, Manchester Piccadilly, Leeds, and many other stations in the north many, many, many times. Each time I have got a long winded excuse about the variety of equipment they use and how they are looking to improve things, and how staff are so busy etc. But it is not difficult. Rather than just show it as "on time" until 2 minutes after departure then add 2 minutes to the expected time every 2 minutes, a simple check of the train running for the inward working shows it is at least x minutes away means it is quite clearly not going to be on time. Either add a chunk of time on all at once or just put "delayed" until such time as a definate time can be given.

How about this for a solution?

Services from Doncaster/Sheffield to Beverley/Bridlington/Scarborough have to reverse at Hull. In many ways the 2 legs could operate as separate services - but when you look at departure boards it shows as a "through" service, so any delays is automatically calculated along the other leg of the route.

What if the underlying system calculating delays input services as whole diagrams rather than just services. That way a train which hasn't reached its destination, and hence been able to become the return working will automatically report as delayed if the incoming service is delayed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"in the meantime, here are a few selections from our extensive repertoire of automated annoucements. PLEASE NOTE THAT SMOKING IS NOT PERMITTED/CLOSED CIRCUIT TELEVISION IS IN USE/YOU MUST BUY A TICKET... etc."

Nah, I'm pretty certain Northern's 158s don't have automated announcements.

We only get security announcements when we're informed that unattended luggage onboard may be removed or damaged by the security services. Not sure quite who is onboard to do this - maybe Mighty Mouse lives in the Guard's bag?

 

[jon0844]

The point is that until the line has been inspected (which may take 20-30 minutes) nobody knows which it is.

I was only joking, in that even if you told someone every possibility they still wouldn't be happy and moan and complain anyway.

Giving an honest, and if necessary, technical explanation (which is what many drivers do, presumably as they haven't been trained in how to give diplomatic explanations) is fine - and if someone doesn't fully understand they can either accept they don't know, or - as often happens - talk amongst themselves on the train.

Someone is likely to know a little and explain, and people do suddenly find the ability to chat to other passengers when things go wrong!

I think that very vague responses and explanations just make people think nobody has a clue. Generic terms, favoured by marketing people, aren't what you want to hear and it's not surprising that people begin to think they're being lied to.

Of course, how does a driver explain a SPAD or someone having been run over ahead? There will be some occasions where you have to be slightly less honest, but they'll not be the norm.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Will GSM help with these sort of problems, by allowing information to be got out to trains easier? As an example a more detailed message could be sent out to all effected trains, rarther than having to speak to each driver individually. Radio systems in general are very good ways of getting information about delays, problems, diversions etc to as many people as possible as quickly and easily as possible, but BR has always been very behind when it comes to the use of radios. I'm sure GSM will provide the technology, but will it be used? I think one of the biggest ironies these days is that often passengers stuck on trains can have better information about what is going on through their phones than the staff do. They are tweeting away updates on delays for anyone who can see, but trying to get the same information to the driver is much more difficult.

 

[snail]

If the announcement was more specific e.g. "The guard is running late due to the late running of an earlier service" then it would be misleading to average Joe.

I don't see that. I used to hear that frequently in the early days of Virgin, when the catering staff hadn't made it on time to their booked boarding point.

I think the best ad-hoc announcement I've heard was on a TPE train going north from Preston. Train came to a stop in the middle of nowhere (aka somewhere around Garstang), after a few minutes the automated voice apologised for the delay followed by a click and "this is the driver speaking. There is a cow on the line. It doesn't appear to want to move but as soon as it does we will be on our way." Perfect.

 

[Flamingo]

Best one I ever heard of was when there was cows on the line, and they had been herded onto the relief line by the MOM. The TM said "We are going to be proceeding slowly past the affected area, if you look out the left hand window in the direction of travel, you will be able to see the cowboys from Network Rail at work!"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was only joking, in that even if you told someone every possibility they still wouldn't be happy and moan and complain anyway.

Giving an honest, and if necessary, technical explanation (which is what many drivers do, presumably as they haven't been trained in how to give diplomatic explanations) is fine - and if someone doesn't fully understand they can either accept they don't know, or - as often happens - talk amongst themselves on the train.

Someone is likely to know a little and explain, and people do suddenly find the ability to chat to other passengers when things go wrong!

I think that very vague responses and explanations just make people think nobody has a clue. Generic terms, favoured by marketing people, aren't what you want to hear and it's not surprising that people begin to think they're being lied to.

Of course, how does a driver explain a SPAD or someone having been run over ahead? There will be some occasions where you have to be slightly less honest, but they'll not be the norm.

Sorry, I was a bit tired this morning, some days I think irony means a bit metallic!

 

[jon0844]

In addition to my comment above, some of the more enjoyable journeys by rail have been when something has gone wrong, on account of people actually talking to each other about it.

Dunkirk spirit in operation...

 

[Flamingo]

In addition to my comment above, some of the more enjoyable journeys by rail have been when something has gone wrong, on account of people actually talking to each other about it.

Dunkirk spirit in operation...

I was caught up with a fatality last week, two chaps were waiting at the door for a while as we waited for a platform at Reading, by the time we had got a platform and I was opening the door they were exchanging business cards and one was saying to the other "I'll e-mail you some samples..".

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps one of them was a doctor.

 

[IanXC]

I was caught up with a fatality last week, two chaps were waiting at the door for a while as we waited for a platform at Reading, by the time we had got a platform and I was opening the door they were exchanging business cards and one was saying to the other "I'll e-mail you some samples..".

Maybe more delays would be good for economic growth?!

 

[Flamingo]

Perhaps one of them was a doctor.

Very good!

 

[sheff1]

No - I agree with you there. "Operational incident" grinds my gears each time I hear it. It is too vague, even for the general public. However it is sometimes the only thing that can be said to a train full of passengers, short of lying. Would you tell 500 people that your driver had passed a signal at danger?

I agree this is one where you wouldn't want to tell the whole truth, but what about 'signalling problem' ?

'Operational incident' is so vague it could mean anything and so means nothing.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To put this into perspective, I wonder how many people ring the highways agency when they are stuck in a jam, to find out why they are being delayed?

Not many, but I bet loads tune into the local radio traffic update and/or check the Highways Agency, AA etc websites on their smartphone.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In which case, the delay should be ascribed to the root cause which delayed the earlier train. Although this can be stretching a point when the original delay was snow in the Scottish Highlands, when its a beautiful sunny day in England.

Don't see any problem with this. I remember being told at Nice, with the temp in the high 60's, that my flight was delayed because of the need to de-ice the plane at Paris.

 

[tbtc]

Not many, but I bet loads tune into the local radio traffic update and/or check the Highways Agency, AA etc websites on their smartphone

True, but people are more bothered about where the delays are, rather than the reasons behind the delay.

Same applies for trains - if the train I was planning to get is ten minutes late then its ten minutes late. Doesn't really matter whether its ten minutes late because of a SPAD/ driver slept in/ points failure/ cow on the line/ theft of signal cables - bottom line is that its ten minutes late.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

To put this into perspective, I wonder how many people ring the highways agency when they are stuck in a jam, to find out why they are being delayed? How much information can be fitted on a motorway display screen?

However, with the Railway, for some people, no amount of information is enough, and not being funny, members of forums like this are the ones who will want (and demand) every last possible piece of information, whether relevant or not.

The ones that get me are the ones who go "And whens the buses getting here, where's the buses"?

Listen love, the train's just fifteen minutes late, we just found out about a points failure, it's three o'clock in the afternoon on a Wednesday and we don't have a shiny fleet of buses waiting on permanent standby in every station car park.

 

[RPM]

Yes, you do get a lot of the "why aren't you laying on buses?". The assumption seems to be that every station has a vast subterranean garage packed with buses fuelled and ready to roll with a mess room full of drivers all waiting with baited breath for the call to come through: "train disruption - GO"...

In reality it takes time to source buses and get them to where you want them and if the problem occurs during school bus times then forget it, you've no chance.