ATW lack of Class 175 first class seating

[northwichcat]

When FNW introduced them did the 2 coach ones stick to one area and the 3 coach ones stick to another?

(since the Llandudno and Barrow/Windermere/ Blackpool services are quite geographically distinctive)

Not really. The 2 car ones were more common on the North West routes but either type could appear in either area.

Don't forget that timetabling was different then. Some Manchester services went to Holyhead, they didn't all go to Llandudno.

The 175s were based at Chester but some were stabled at Longsight overnight at that time, opposed to doing a lot of ECS moves between Chester and Manchester Airport.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Not really. The 2 car ones were more common on the North West routes but either type could appear in either area.

Don't forget that timetabling was different then. Some Manchester services went to Holyhead, they didn't all go to Llandudno.

The 175s were based at Chester but some were stabled at Longsight overnight at that time, opposed to doing a lot of ECS moves between Chester and Manchester Airport.

The 175's were awful performers when new for some years, it was well into ATW days before the reliability on them was sorted out. It was a question of what was working went off shed. Until 05 (when the entire fleet transferred to ATW) the agreement was that that TPE would get the first 11 operational units - no length specified and ATW the next 11. On many occasions ATW didn't even get 11. It was a big issue in the last days of my time with RPC. It would be fair to say that some North Western routes got more reliable stock when the 175's went. I think were looking through rose tinted glasses of today's performance of them but at the time it was felt by many that the Wales and Border franchise getting them was another sign of Wales being screwed over.

Back to OP- the whole marches route will need revamping in the next decade due to growth its at capacity now and the tt on it and allocation of stock to it needs close examination. ATW have this year introduced a fast/semi fast service from Cardiff to Manchester with different stopping patterns on alternate hours and extra stops at Nantwich and Whitchurch. The southern part should really be part of the Cardiff commuter network which should relieve pressure on longer distance trains. Perhaps then a 1st class option may be possible.

 

[Polarbear]

As regards the provision of 1st class on the Cardiff - Crewe run, this would have been available until the mid 1980's I expect (the class 33 era on that line).

Most regional services lost their 1st class facilities in the early to mid 1980's. The rationalle given at the time was that the standard of stock used for such services, (ususally 1st generation DMU's with loco hauled Mk1 or Mk2a/b stock) was not up to the required standard. I suspect though that there was also a realisation within BR that hardly anyone actually paid 1st class fares on such routes.

I do think that there is a market for "premier" accommodation on some journeys these days as UK rail travel is being revitalised & those that do travel have more spending power. No frills, just a small number of wider seats with a bit more legroom & curtains, available for a supplementary charge.

 

[animationmilo]

ATW only have 12 3 car sets and 15 are 2 car. They have to do the Manchester to Llandudno and Holyhead to Cardiff runs as well as Manchester to Cardiff/Swansea/ West Wales. They try and diagram 3 cars for peak trains into and out of Cardiff and Manchester which still leaves too may 2 car services knocking about. They could do with entire fleet being 3 car and a few more complete sets.

I was on the 1620 ex Chester to Cardiff last Thursday full and standing on leaving Chester with a 2 car set. A colleague of mine went to see his daughter in London last weekend he said it was a nice change to be on empty trains in the capital. Hes a frequent business traveler between Welshpool and Cardiff.

I think you'll find they have 11 2 car 175's and 16 3 car 175's

175001 to 175011 are 2 cars
175101 to 175116 are 3 cars.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Back to OP- the whole marches route will need revamping in the next decade due to growth its at capacity now and the tt on it and allocation of stock to it needs close examination. ATW have this year introduced a fast/semi fast service from Cardiff to Manchester with different stopping patterns on alternate hours and extra stops at Nantwich and Whitchurch. The southern part should really be part of the Cardiff commuter network which should relieve pressure on longer distance trains. Perhaps then a 1st class option may be possible.

Thank you for the view from your side of the border. The extra stops at Nantwich and Whitchurch were as the result of lobbying by councillors from the local authority in those areas, but this has meant a similar reduction in some of the services which stop at Church Stretton and Craven Arms. To compensate for this, Church Stretton and Craven Arms now receive some service stops on the Holyhead to Cardiff route. This could have been slightly better made known to the travelling public.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Thank you for the view from your side of the border. The extra stops at Nantwich and Whitchurch were as the result of lobbying by councillors from the local authority in those areas, but this has meant a similar reduction in some of the services which stop at Church Stretton and Craven Arms. To compensate for this, Church Stretton and Craven Arms now receive some service stops on the Holyhead to Cardiff route. This could have been slightly better made known to the travelling public.

CA & CS have a lop sided service instead of an hourly fixed interval they get 25 then 95 gaps - hence need to revamp whole route. It really does try and be all things and invariably fails. No real genuine express service with 1st class, through trains with lots of stops and lots of local on /off journeys. South of Abergavenny really should be commuter services into Cardiff and growing pressure at the North end to spread Manchester City Region into N Shrops. Add to this its rather unique private school children flow into Hereford.

 

[northwichcat]

The 175's were awful performers when new for some years, it was well into ATW days before the reliability on them was sorted out. It was a question of what was working went off shed. Until 05 (when the entire fleet transferred to ATW) the agreement was that that TPE would get the first 11 operational units - no length specified and ATW the next 11. On many occasions ATW didn't even get 11. It was a big issue in the last days of my time with RPC. It would be fair to say that some North Western routes got more reliable stock when the 175's went. I think were looking through rose tinted glasses of today's performance of them but at the time it was felt by many that the Wales and Border franchise getting them was another sign of Wales being screwed over.

Wales certainly didn't get screwed over as a result of the FNW routes and stock.

Saying it was 11 for TPE and 11 for ATW with ATW going short if less than 22 units were in service sounds fair to me. When FNW had the 175s they required more for the North West routes than the North Wales routes so Wales getting 11 sounds generous.

If ATW had got FNW 142s and 158s instead (142s were previously used on Borderlands and Crewe-Chester) then I'm sure there would have been more complaints.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Having travelled on the accelated NPT - Crewe - Manchester service , it does seem to tick more than a fee boxes ...

 

[Rhydgaled]

Admittedly - more 3 car sets would be great - and I expect the diagramming is a nightmare as the peak across the Swansea - Cardiff - NP section is now so busy that it must come first in the optioneering.(there are 4 milion jnys per annum on this section -excluding London flows)

From my trip today, it appears to me that busy times past Swansea - Cardiff - Newport doesn't always come first. I was on the 17:39 Cardiff to Milford Haven (I guess it came from Manchester) as far as Clarbeston Road (change for Fishguard). It was a 2-car set and standing room only out of Cardiff. The refreshment trolley man informed me it was always like this, complaining that the passengers didn't wait for the next train (which he said was a FGW IC125). He said the service was only 2-car because of low-loadings after Swansea. He was right, a 2-car was fine after that.

While sitting on the rather uncomfortable luggage rack however I was thinking. My first thought, passing three class 50s in Canton, was one of anger that ATW are not using all their mark 2s (I think 6 are used for WAG express, 3 at a time with the other 3 spare except for when they run the rugby specials on Saturdays, which I think leaves at least 7 coaches unused). The second thought, based on the information from the refreshment salesman that the standing would stop after Swansea, was a longer-term solution for the route after the planned Gowerton re-doubling. That was to cease the current Manchester - Carmarthen/Milford trains and have something like this:

• Hourly push-pull LHCS Manchester - Swansea (lets you have more carriges on the crowded section than you could justify taking into west Wales when there isn't any events on)
• Hourly Cardiff Central - Carmarthen service run using 158s calling at Bridgend, Port Talbot Parkway and Llanelli only, with alternate hour extentions to Milford Haven (and Fishguard in the other hour if the trial is a success)
• Hourly Swansea - Carmarthen all-stations train, continuing to Milford in alternate hours (so Milford gets an hourly service, the fast one above could perhaps ommit Clunderwen and Clarbeston Road)
• Two hourly Swansea - Pembroke Dock (perhaps with an extra between Swansea and Carmarthen in the other hour)

Basicly making all services into Swansea terminate there but keeping direct Cardiff trains for west Wales, routed via the Swansea district line instead. As I said, a longish-term proposal as it probablly needs more rolling stock. The big thing I was wondering on the train was whether the loss of direct trains between west Wales and Neath, and between Gowerton and east of Swansea, would have too much impact.

its given ATW a better capacity than some TOCs have for long distance provincial routes (that don't fall under the Cross Country banner).

I've never been on a Turbostar (Southern 377s I have been on though) but I think 175s might be better suited than 170s on XC's Turbostar routes. Why has there never been a 158/175/444 equivenlent from the Turbostar/Electrostar family?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Lots of questions there.

(a) LHCS isnt the answer - apart from the cost of training staff , the track access costs are high for anything like this - well over a pound a mile for 67's in particular. Do you really want 1967 build locos out in all day service ? - apart from inflexibility etc etc. Ok for the odd relief train extra.
(b) There is some merit in reconsidering the standard pattern timetable west of Carmarthen , especially when you consider the use of the class 175 sets etc.Running faster services via the Swansea District again makes lots of sense. Quicker end to end journey times means better use of rolling stock
(c) 17x sets are excellent - trouble is the cost of new builds with present material price indices and risk averse funders.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The opportunity seems to have gone now, but when the 14x5-car 180s were unwanted I always thought it would have been a good idea to fillet one car from each and insert them into the 11x2-car 175s, making a fleet of 41 3/4/5-car Adelantes, some with 1st class.

This obviously depended on being able to convert a 180 vehicle to a 175; I don't know what the differences are apart from the engines.

This would have covered ATW's long distance needs, and they could all have been be maintained by Alstom at Chester as a single fleet.

But now FGW have taken them on again it's too late!

 

[northwichcat]

The opportunity seems to have gone now, but when the 14x5-car 180s were unwanted I always thought it would have been a good idea to fillet one car from each and insert them into the 11x2-car 175s, making a fleet of 41 3/4/5-car Adelantes, some with 1st class.

This obviously depended on being able to convert a 180 vehicle to a 175; I don't know what the differences are apart from the engines.

This would have covered ATW's long distance needs, and they could all have been be maintained by Alstom at Chester as a single fleet.

But now FGW have taken them on again it's too late!

A few years back there was a suggestion that Northern would sublease 3 x 3 car 175s from ATW (likely in exchange for 3 x 3 car 158s) and form 6 hybrid Cordia sets as follows:

180D 180C 180C 175D
180D 180C 175C 175D
180D 180C 180C 175D
180D 180C 175C 175D
180D 180C 180C 175D
180D 180C 175C 175D

(C means centre car, D means driving car)

Would that have worked well? Who knows? If they had done and it worked well I imagine ATW would have been interested in taking on 180s.

 

[Greenback]

From my trip today, it appears to me that busy times past Swansea - Cardiff - Newport doesn't always come first. I was on the 17:39 Cardiff to Milford Haven (I guess it came from Manchester) as far as Clarbeston Road (change for Fishguard). It was a 2-car set and standing room only out of Cardiff. The refreshment trolley man informed me it was always like this, complaining that the passengers didn't wait for the next train (which he said was a FGW IC125). He said the service was only 2-car because of low-loadings after Swansea. He was right, a 2-car was fine after that.

That is a good illustration of what I was saying about the long route with different flows at different times. The 2 car train is quite suited for a westward Swansea departure at 1835, but is hopelessly insufficient for the trains before that one.

On the other hand, 2 carriages are woefully inadequate for the 1739 service from Cardiff. I should imagine that the same service might well be overcrowded after leaving Shrewsbury. With the length of the journey and the different markets that have to be catered for enroute, 2 car trains are just not sufficient.

I won't comment on the proposals as I think we have had a discussion on them before.

 

[All Line Rover]

The 175's were awful performers when new for some years, it was well into ATW days before the reliability on them was sorted out. It was a question of what was working went off shed. Until 05 (when the entire fleet transferred to ATW) the agreement was that that TPE would get the first 11 operational units - no length specified and ATW the next 11. On many occasions ATW didn't even get 11. It was a big issue in the last days of my time with RPC. It would be fair to say that some North Western routes got more reliable stock when the 175's went. I think were looking through rose tinted glasses of today's performance of them but at the time it was felt by many that the Wales and Border franchise getting them was another sign of Wales being screwed over.

It turns out that Wales hasn't been screwed over!

I find the 175's to be very nice, quiet trains with comfortable seating. (Providing that they are clean and aren't overflowing.) The reliability is excellent, except in winter when they often break down with the cold. (Cold = freezing temperatures, although they often seem to "catch" a cold in winter. )

 

[Greenback]

I also find the 175's to be excellent.

I think, though, that Gareth was saying that that was the feeling at the time the 175's were passed to ATW. It appeared that unreliable units were going to be dumped on the franchise, and that better or newer units would be going to Northern.

We know now that that was not the case at all.

 

[All Line Rover]

I also find the 175's to be excellent.

I think, though, that Gareth was saying that that was the feeling at the time the 175's were passed to ATW. It appeared that unreliable units were going to be dumped on the franchise, and that better or newer units would be going to Northern.

We know now that that was not the case at all.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing... For the Welsh.

 

[northwichcat]

I also find the 175's to be excellent.

I think, though, that Gareth was saying that that was the feeling at the time the 175's were passed to ATW. It appeared that unreliable units were going to be dumped on the franchise, and that better or newer units would be going to Northern.

We know now that that was not the case at all.

I don't know where ideas like that would have originated. The Northern franchise didn't include any options for new stock. Although, towards the start they did look at the idea of a low cost Pacer replacement but if that had gone ahead it would have been a slightly better newer version of a Pacer, rather than a more reliable version of a 175.

 

[Greenback]

I don't know where ideas like that would have originated. The Northern franchise didn't include any options for new stock. Although, towards the start they did look at the idea of a low cost Pacer replacement but if that had gone ahead it would have been a slightly better newer version of a Pacer, rather than a more reliable version of a 175.

I don't know either, but as Gareth was involved with stakeholders at the time, I guess he is merely reporting what less informed people might have said.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The 175's didn't become reliable until around 2006/7. If we were having this thread back in 05 there would plenty of posters chipping in with their opinions about what a pile of cack the 175 was reliability wise. The Northern "Wales has to many newish DMU's faction" just sees what is now good quality stock not in there area that once was forgetting many in the North West were glad to see the back of them. In fact you could say it took becoming Welsh to sort out something the English in the North West couldn't!

There were English TOC Managers who I thought at the time had helped push the 175 fleet onto Wales and the Borders. Its no use moaning now you lot didn't want them and happily let the Southern England SRA send them to Wales.

 

[Pacerpilot]

Personally, I think the 175s are fantastic. Ive never had one fail on me to point where I couldnt make to my destination/relief point and at this time of year, Id rather drive one of these than anything else on my card. The WSP system is excellent.

 

[tbtc]

Its a shame that the reliability improvements on the 175s hasn't happened on their "sister unit" 180s...

 

[Rhydgaled]

I won't comment on the proposals as I think we have had a discussion on them before.

They are similar to what I've posted before, yes. However I don't think I suggested splitting the Manchester - Milfords into two seperate services at Swansea before. I hadn't given much thought to doing that until the refreshment man spoke on that crowded services. Before that, I think the suggestions I posted probablly included 2 direct trains per hour between Carmarthen and Cardiff (1 per hour via Swansea, the other via the district line).

(c) 17x sets are excellent - trouble is the cost of new builds with present material price indices and risk averse funders.

Regarding what I said about a 158/444 equivelent from the Turbostar, I didn't mean something to build now. Rather, I was wondering why something like a 158/175-style Turbostar wasn't built instead of some of the many Turbostars which were built. Assuming the routes 170s work now were the ones they were ordered for, a new 158 would have been better suited.

 

[northwichcat]

In fact you could say it took becoming Welsh to sort out something the English in the North West couldn't!

ATW maintain the 175s in England though! More likely that First Group wrongly thought new trains would require a lot less maintenance than they actually did.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its a shame that the reliability improvements on the 175s hasn't happened on their "sister unit" 180s...

Probably down to them being split up. It's only fairly recently that the different 180 operators started working with each other with regards to maintenance. If FGW take on the 5 x 180s I can't see the reliability of those 5 improving at all, while if TPE take them on and work with Hull Trains on maintenance there could be some improvements.

 

[Philip]

There doesn't seem to be any consistency (or common sense!) regarding the length of trains. The 08:28 Crewe to Manchester service (from Cardiff) is only 2-car, even though it is an absolutely rammed peak service. The 18:30 service from Manchester (continuing to Carmarthen) is only 2-car, even though this is also a very busy peak service until Shrewsbury. The 19:30, 20:30 and 21:35 services from Manchester (continuing to Cardiff, Cardiff and Shrewsbury) are all 3-car most of the time, even though they are all very quiet! :roll:

Note: "Peak" just means a busy, commuter service. I'm not referring to ticket restrictions.

08:28 Crewe to Manchester is nearly always a 3-car set, going off TRUST, as is the 17:34 departure out of Manchester.

On the subject of reliability, I remember reading on the north wales coast page that improvements were made to 175s around 2003-04, although even up to 2009 units were still a bit suspect to problems.. They do seem to be performing very well now though..

When TPE had them, pretty sure they used to have about 6-7 three car sets of the 11 in total and units would tend to stay at Barrow and Blackpool carriage sidings more so than Longsight. There were about 4 doubled up sets booked to work services out of Manchester Airport each day as well, which you don't see now!

 

[Greenback]

They are similar to what I've posted before, yes. However I don't think I suggested splitting the Manchester - Milfords into two seperate services at Swansea before. I hadn't given much thought to doing that until the refreshment man spoke on that crowded services. Before that, I think the suggestions I posted probablly included 2 direct trains per hour between Carmarthen and Cardiff (1 per hour via Swansea, the other via the district line).

No, I don't think you mentioned the Manchester trains. Out of interest, how many LCHS sets would be required for an hourly Manchester to Swansea service?

 

[Rhydgaled]

No, I don't think you mentioned the Manchester trains. Out of interest, how many LCHS sets would be required for an hourly Manchester to Swansea service?

Just working it out now, East Coast journey planner gives a 4hr 7min journey time calling at Stockport, Wilmslow, Crewe, Shrewsbury, Ludlow, Leominster, Hereford, Abergavenny, Cwmbran, Newport, Cardiff Central, Bridgend, Pyle, Port Talbot Parkway, Neath and Swansea. In the other direction it gives around 4hrs 20mins for journeys with more stops between Newport and Manchester.

Using a spreadsheet to create a timetable with Manchester departures at xx:30 every hour and arrivals into Manchester at xx:15 I estimate 9 diagrams with the trains from Manchester arriving at Swansea 4hr 7min later every 2 hours and 4hrs 20min later in the other hour. It would probablly be better to retain multiple units on the slower workings though, so only have a two-hourly Swansea - Manchester loco-hauled fast service with 175s on the slower workings. That seems to give you some very long dwell times, but if you can get around pathing constraints you could use 7 diagrams and run a 2-hourly Swansea - Manchester - Llandudno service.

Anyway, my main questions here (in this thread) and now are:
A. whether having all Cardiff - West Wales direct trains routed via the district line would help west Wales passengers get a seat out of Cardiff on their train and
B. how important are direct trains from West Wales to Neath, and from Gowerton to east of Swansea, as these would be the services lost by making everything that goes into Swansea terminate there.

 

[Greenback]

A: It probably would help a little, but not a great deal, as in my experience there are quite a few Bridgend and Port Talbot passengers on the West Wales trains as well as the Swansea and Neath passengers.

The staff used to be good at encouraging people on to the HST's when they left first, but I haven't seen the current situation when the ATW's go before them.

B: I haven't noticed many people asking for Neath in comparison to Swansea and Cardiff.

 

[tbtc]

Probably down to them being split up. It's only fairly recently that the different 180 operators started working with each other with regards to maintenance. If FGW take on the 5 x 180s I can't see the reliability of those 5 improving at all, while if TPE take them on and work with Hull Trains on maintenance there could be some improvements.

They were all together with FGW though, and performed poorly there.

Maybe the way forward would be to give GC more 180s to see if keeping them together improves things (and using the GC HSTs elsewhere, e.g. XC?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Anyway, my main questions here (in this thread) and now are:
A. whether having all Cardiff - West Wales direct trains routed via the district line would help west Wales passengers get a seat out of Cardiff on their train and
B. how important are direct trains from West Wales to Neath, and from Gowerton to east of Swansea, as these would be the services lost by making everything that goes into Swansea terminate there.

Whilst I appreciate that there's a market for through trains (a friend from school lives in Broadhaven, so I've used the Haverfordwest services before...), diverting existing trains that way means that you lose the following markets:

• Swansea - Cardiff (the big one)
• Swansea - West Wales
• Swansea - Neath/ Port Talbot/ Bridgend etc
• Gowerton (etc) - Cardiff

To me, the cost of diverting existing services this way (disrupting existing journeys) outweighs the benefits (a faster journey for people travelling from West Wales to Cardiff).

Plus, there's the business case for electrification to Swansea...

 

[northwichcat]

They were all together with FGW though, and performed poorly there.

I said that in reply to your comment of "Its a shame that the reliability improvements on the 175s hasn't happened on their "sister unit" 180s..." The 175s were also unreliable under FNW but keeping them all together and maintained at the Chester depot has led to reliability improvements whereas splitting up the 180s has meant that nothing's changed.

 

[Greenback]

They were all together with FGW though, and performed poorly there.

Maybe the way forward would be to give GC more 180s to see if keeping them together improves things (and using the GC HSTs elsewhere, e.g. XC?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Whilst I appreciate that there's a market for through trains (a friend from school lives in Broadhaven, so I've used the Haverfordwest services before...), diverting existing trains that way means that you lose the following markets:

• Swansea - Cardiff (the big one)
• Swansea - West Wales
• Swansea - Neath/ Port Talbot/ Bridgend etc
• Gowerton (etc) - Cardiff

To me, the cost of diverting existing services this way (disrupting existing journeys) outweighs the benefits (a faster journey for people travelling from West Wales to Cardiff).

Plus, there's the business case for electrification to Swansea...

Rhydgaled has proposed that Swansea to Cardiff be served by two fast trains an hour (1 HST and 1 from Manchester) and the two hourly Swanline trains which stop everywhere. There is no loss of service provision in that compared to what we have now.

There is a market between Gowerton and Caridff. I know of several Gowerton passengers who commute to Cardiff daily. The question is, how will a change at Swansea affect them? It may not be a much longer journey given that trains reverse at Swansea anyway, but will the psychological impact of having an interrupted journey count against it?

As Rhydgaled proposes an hourly service from Swansea to Carmarthen, extending to other destinations, the question there is whether the timings will be competitive with bus or car, given the all stops nature of the service. However, the market between Swansea and stations to Carmarthen may not be particularly time sensitive.

Personally, I don't think that the proposals are practical, but I can see the appeal for a faster journey to and from Cardiff, as long as current service levels through Swansea were maintained.