Lower Fare Rises for Wales?

[Sun!]

Just to point out there is a seperate Welsh education system. Though the A-Level and GCSE syllabus is practicaly the same, primary schools have a very different way of operating.

 

[merlodlliw]

Good news regarding developments along the southern corridor. Are any annoucements due regarding re-opening of Llangefni (perhaps even Amlwch) - Gaerwen and hourly service for the Cambrian?

Llangefni was the brain Child of the previous Plaid Minister for rail, it was in his patch,as is WAGAIR, neither have impressed the current Minister.

As for politics, Plaid was demoted to third place in the elections in Wales,behind the Tories. Wales is by no means as nationalist as many make it out to be.

 

[tbtc]

Considering that the Welsh Assembly (and Scottish Parliament) receive (most of) their funding from the central Treasury and that there is no similar arrangement for England, all of their money is somewhat "at the expense of the English"

I don't get the point you are making here.

England gets money spent on it, same as Scotland and Wales do. In fact, as I said, the most rail spending per head of population is on south east England.

Where's the Welsh HS2 or the Welsh Crossrail or the Welsh Thameslink?

Easy to be envious

 

[Butts]

Just to point out there is a seperate Welsh education system. Though the A-Level and GCSE syllabus is practicaly the same, primary schools have a very different way of operating.

I don't think it would be as easy for Wales to become a seperate entity in relation to England as it would be for Scotland.

This is primarily due to Scotland already having seperate Legal System, Education System and Church already in situ as it were. This is due to the fact it has been attatched to England for a lot longer than Scotland has.

You will note on the Union Flag The Cross of St George , The Cross of St Andrew or Saltire and The Cross of St Patrick. There is no representation of Wales.

It is my belief Wales is not big enough to "stand on it's own" and there is less desire to do so than in Scotland - look how close the devolution vote was in Wales. I was in Abertawe when it scraped through with the Camarthen vote.

Look at Plaid's recent electoral performance - The Tories are back in Wales but not in Scotland- a coincidence ?

With regard to England the big problem is "lack of national identity" - a lot of English people seem unable or unwilling to distinguish between England and the UK in their form of speech which is irritating to other parts of the UK.

I can't understand why English people are not complaining more about the fees they are paying for various services that are cheaper or free in other parts of the UK. As long as they remain apathetic other parts of the UK will willingly trouser the cash.

 

[mallard]

In fact, as I said, the most rail spending per head of population is on south east England.

I suspect that's likely because the most rail use per head of population is in South East England. Let's also not forget that until quite recently, the South East of England was dominated by 40-year old rolling stock...

Of course I'm envious! I see the things that have been achieved, particularly by the Scottish in terms of rail (the continued improvement since the formation of "ScotRail" in the 80s) and want to see something similar in England (particularly outside the South East; the North West is crying out for some decent sustained investment!).

I'd also like to see the same level of "ringfencing" of money for England, so that the government doesn't go off and spend all the money on bailing out banks and fighting foreign wars at the expense of English public services.

 

[Zoe]

Scotland and Wales have devolution as they voted for it. Northern Ireland also voted for an assembly as did London. The remaining regions of the UK were going to be offered it also but the first to be asked the question (the North East) rejected it. That is why the remaining regions of England are the responsibility of the UK government.

 

[krus_aragon]

No separate Welsh legal system

It's mostly homogenous, but there have been legal differences since 1881 (in the Sunday Closing (Wales) Act). With law-making powers restored to Wales, a more distinct body of Welsh Law is developing.

No separate Welsh education system

Education is devolved to 'The Bay'. Statutory Assessment Tests (SATs) at primary level have been disbanded in Wales, in favour of teacher-based assessment. Post-16 students in Wales are all (I think) following a Welsh Bacculoreate programme, combining A-Levels with a new core component. University funding is devolved as well, making for a fine smorgasbord across the home nations!

No separate Welsh currency

Neither is there a separate Scottish currency: there are banknotes issued by Scottish banks. There used to be lots of banks issuing their own notes, but legislation in 1844 made the Bank of England the primary issuer. Banks already issuing notes were allowed to continue issuing notes in their own name, but weren't able to transfer those rights. When the North and South Wales Bank was bought out by Midland Bank, the last Welsh issuer of banknotes fased into the sunset...

...until 1969, that is. Richard Williams of Llandudno registered a company in the name of Prif Trysorfa Cymru Cyf., and the bods in London didn't realise that in English this meant Chief Treasury of Wales Ltd! He first issued bills of exchange and later promissory notes, up until decimalisation, much to the annoyance of London. I highly reccommend 'Money Galore: the story of the Welsh Pound', ISBN 9781843060840 for the full story.


Despite all the above, I agree that Scotland is far more politically independent than Wales, and feel that this is due to a later absorbtion into England/Britain, and the greater distance from London. I reckon Wales is more linguistically independent, however. Neither the Saltire of St. Andrew nor the Welsh Dragon will be flying at the Olympics, though.

 

[Greenback]

I don't think it would be as easy for Wales to become a seperate entity in relation to England as it would be for Scotland.

This is primarily due to Scotland already having seperate Legal System, Education System and Church already in situ as it were. This is due to the fact it has been attatched to England for a lot longer than Scotland has.

Historically, there never was a Welsh nation in the same way that there was a Scottish nation. At the time Wales was absorbed into Norman England, the idea of Scotland was just about becoming established. Welsh Law was in existence, but as with a lot of Saxon England practices, the Nroman way of doing things became established, although aspects of Welsh law became incoproated too.

Despite this, it is not impossible to break the links that lead to the name 'England and Wales'. It may not be as easy legally to establish Welsh independence as Scottish independence, but that is not on the agenda at the moment anyway!

You will note on the Union Flag The Cross of St George , The Cross of St Andrew or Saltire and The Cross of St Patrick. There is no representation of Wales.

The history of the Union flag is very interesting - indeed the history of the Saints flags is as well! I never even knew there was a cross of St David...

It is my belief Wales is not big enough to "stand on it's own" and there is less desire to do so than in Scotland - look how close the devolution vote was in Wales. I was in Abertawe when it scraped through with the Camarthen vote.

Look at Plaid's recent electoral performance - The Tories are back in Wales but not in Scotland- a coincidence ?

Size is not a guarantee of success as an independent country! There are several states that are smaller than Wales in terms of population and area.

The devolution vote in 1999 was very close, but things have moved on. The desire for more power and for independence is growing, and is strongest amongst the young in Wales. The recent poll on more power for the Assembly was not as close as the devolution vote, and some voted No because they felt the additional powers did not go far enough!

As for the Tories being back, well, they never really went away at local level!

With regard to England the big problem is "lack of national identity" - a lot of English people seem unable or unwilling to distinguish between England and the UK in their form of speech which is irritating to other parts of the UK.

Quite correct. To many English people of my acquaintance, England is Britain, britain is the UK and Wales/Scotland/Northern ireland are no more countries than Yorkshire or Gloucestershire.

This has helped the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish to remember their national identities!

I can't understand why English people are not complaining more about the fees they are paying for various services that are cheaper or free in other parts of the UK. As long as they remain apathetic other parts of the UK will willingly trouser the cash.

As has been said, it is about how the devolved administrations choose to spend the money they are allocated. The lack of a similar level of government in England means that people there have less of a say.

Scotland and Wales have devolution as they voted for it. Northern Ireland also voted for an assembly as did London. The remaining regions of the UK were going to be offered it also but the first to be asked the question (the North East) rejected it. That is why the remaining regions of England are the responsibility of the UK government.

Indeed. If England had one assembly, or several, the voters there would have more of a chance to tell their representatives what they want, and more decisions would be made at a local level.

Perhaps this may mean that fares would not rise so much in some areas!

 

[IanXC]

I didn't mean it like that, I mean that the Scottish and Welsh get to "ringfence" their own allocations from the treasury to benefit their populations, while the English have no similar arrangement - i.e. the money left has to cover both "English" things and "whole UK" things, with no set allocations either way.

For instance, if the government were to put a large amount of money into developing a UK-wide High-Speed Rail network, this would have to (mostly) come from the central Treasury, meaning less money left for "English" things.
.

I don't like to mention the Barnett Formula as it really is riddled with anomalies and difficulties, but it is an attempt to ensure that England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Great Britain, England and Wales (as applicable) all benefit from a fairly distributed budget.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_formula

 

[WatcherZero]

As a similar issue the Scottish Government was yesterday warned by economists and its civil servants that it couldnt afford another 5 year freeze on council tax (which was an SNP election pledge) the one in place since 2007 has already cost the Scottish Government 33% of its funding and along with the 25% austerity cuts another 5 years of no council tax rises would bankrupt the Scottish Government.

In England the Government got councils to enforce a council tax freeze through a bit of carrot and stick, if they only rose in line with inflation or less then the government would give them the cash equivalent of a 2% rise, if they did raise them more then they wouldnt recieve that money.

 

[DJ737]

would be great for gowerton to no longer be a request stop

G'day
I agree with the above, never been on a train that hasn't stopped at Gowerton.

Also remove Clarbeston Rd request stops for the services from Milford that connect with the services from Fishguard Harbour.

My preference would be to seperate Wales and England!

Again agree, the English should require a visa to visit Wales, they could run corridor trains from nonstop from Pilning to stations south of the Landsker Line , similar to what used to happen between Switzerland and Austria via West Germany before the silliness of the EU.

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

 

[Butts]

Scotland and Wales have devolution as they voted for it. Northern Ireland also voted for an assembly as did London. The remaining regions of the UK were going to be offered it also but the first to be asked the question (the North East) rejected it. That is why the remaining regions of England are the responsibility of the UK government.

With all due respect to Zoe here is a classic example of the UK/England conundrum referred to by myself and Greenback.

"The remaining regions of the UK........."

This would lead one to believe that Scotland and indeed Wales and Northern are regions they are Countries.

The UK is United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - with GB obviously being England Wales and Scotland.

Each of these constituent nations have regions within them.

 

[Zoe]

With all due respect to Zoe here is a classic example of the UK/England conundrum referred to by myself and Greenback.

"The remaining regions of the UK........."

This would lead one to believe that Scotland and indeed Wales and Northern are regions they are Countries.

The UK is United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - with GB obviously being England Wales and Scotland.

Each of these constituent nations have regions within them.

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are both constituent countries and regions of the UK. England is a constituent country and contains nine regions. The North East region was asked if it wanted devolution and rejected it.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes the Government parlance is usually 'England, Wales, Scotland and the Regions', they usually dont refer to Northern Ireland at all.

 

[Greenback]

Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are both constituent countries and regions of the UK. England is a constituent country and contains nine regions. The North East region was asked if it wanted devolution and rejected it.

I am sure you can understand why many Celts are upset with being considered only as the equal of an English region. It's only pushing the Celtic countries further towards wanting independence!

 

[Butts]

I am sure you can understand why many Celts are upset with being considered only as the equal of an English region. It's only pushing the Celtic countries further towards wanting independence!

Personally I don't want independence just recognition that " life exists outwith the confines of the M25"

Even people in England are sick of the "London Centric" nature of the media and a lot of other "bodies"

 

[Greenback]

Personally I don't want independence just recognition that " life exists outwith the confines of the M25"

Even people in England are sick of the "London Centric" nature of the media and a lot of other "bodies"

Miore and more younger people are in favour of independence. It's still a minority view, but it is increasing.

The English media is extremely focused on the south east. The smae is said in Wales, where there can appear to be a pro Cardiff slant. On the other hand, as with London, this is where a large proportion of the population lives, and it is cenrtainly where power and influenc eis located!

I wonder if things would have been any different if the Assembly had been housed in Aberystwyth or Swansea!

 

[Butts]

Miore and more younger people are in favour of independence. It's still a minority view, but it is increasing.

The English media is extremely focused on the south east. The smae is said in Wales, where there can appear to be a pro Cardiff slant. On the other hand, as with London, this is where a large proportion of the population lives, and it is cenrtainly where power and influenc eis located!

I wonder if things would have been any different if the Assembly had been housed in Aberystwyth or Swansea!

Actually in Scotland you can substitute Cardiff for Glasgow or Edinburgh and the same could probably be said regarding slants and influences.

I think you are correct about young people and independence - it's the same up here. But hell - what do kids know

I'll tell you what we'll resite the Welsh Assembly to Llanelli and the Scottish Parliament to Falkirk - what do you reckon

 

[Zoe]

Yes the Government parlance is usually 'England, Wales, Scotland and the Regions', they usually dont refer to Northern Ireland at all.

Actually it's usually Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the regions of England. It's England that doesn't have the same status as the other three.

I am sure you can understand why many Celts are upset with being considered only as the equal of an English region. It's only pushing the Celtic countries further towards wanting independence!

What about Cornwall? It's not recognized as a constituent country or even a region. It's simply part of the South West region.

 

[Greenback]

What about Cornwall? It's not recognized as a constituent country or even a region. It's simply part of the South West region.

I have sympathy for Cornwall, but that is for the Cornish to campaign for! We Welsh have our own problems!

 

[tbtc]

I think that its pointless trying to pretend that there's "parity" between various different parts of the UK.

Scotland and England were both fully independent countries. Northern Ireland is obviously an artificial creation for political reasons. The lands that now form Wales were only temporarily under the control of one leader before the English took over. Some parts of England are comparable with Wales/ Northern Ireland in terms of population and land area (e.g. I think Yorkshire has about four million people, which is bigger than Wales or Northern Ireland), but lack the political independence.

Because people want to try to treat everything as "equal" you end up with political posturing like treating Ulster Scots as equivalent to Welsh, or putting bi-lingual signs in Cornwall.

The best thing to do is to accept that a "one size fits all" policy doesn't work, and that we should accept differences (transport included). If the WAG want to concentrate their resources on cheaper fares (rather than infrastructure) then that is their decision - in the way that West Yorkshire PTE are spending their money on cheaper fares whilst Greater Manchester are spending their money on tram infrastructure.

 

[Butts]

I think that its pointless trying to pretend that there's "parity" between various different parts of the UK.

Scotland and England were both fully independent countries. Northern Ireland is obviously an artificial creation for political reasons. The lands that now form Wales were only temporarily under the control of one leader before the English took over. Some parts of England are comparable with Wales/ Northern Ireland in terms of population and land area (e.g. I think Yorkshire has about four million people, which is bigger than Wales or Northern Ireland), but lack the political independence.

Because people want to try to treat everything as "equal" you end up with political posturing like treating Ulster Scots as equivalent to Welsh, or putting bi-lingual signs in Cornwall.

The best thing to do is to accept that a "one size fits all" policy doesn't work, and that we should accept differences (transport included). If the WAG want to concentrate their resources on cheaper fares (rather than infrastructure) then that is their decision - in the way that West Yorkshire PTE are spending their money on cheaper fares whilst Greater Manchester are spending their money on tram infrastructure.

I will leave "Greenback Glyndwr" to answer the Welsh bit - only under the control of one leader for a few years he won't like that

Bottom line is Scotland and Wales are countries not regions like Yorkshire.

However my own belief is that Rail Policy should be controlled centrally not by "regions". I believe in UK Rail not Scotrail, Welshrail etc...

Nationalise the Railways with the new name UK Rail or UKR for short !! - NB UKR includes Northern Ireland British Rail does not.

 

[krus_aragon]

I wonder if things would have been any different if the Assembly had been housed in Aberystwyth or Swansea!

My father was adamant that it should have been housed in Machynlleth, where Glyndwr held his parliament.

 

[Greenback]

My father was adamant that it should have been housed in Machynlleth, where Glyndwr held his parliament.

Ys, I would have supported that too!

I will leave "Greenback Glyndwr" to answer the Welsh bit - only under the control of one leader for a few years he won't like that

Bottom line is Scotland and Wales are countries not regions like Yorkshire.

However my own belief is that Rail Policy should be controlled centrally not by "regions". I believe in UK Rail not Scotrail, Welshrail etc...

Nationalise the Railways with the new name UK Rail or UKR for short !! - NB UKR includes Northern Ireland British Rail does not.

tbtc is histroically correct. Ironically it was the English, or Normans, that first fostered a sense of Wales being one country that was seperate from England. Before this, the 'Welsh' comprised a lot of small tribes who did not see themselves as anyhting else.

 

[krus_aragon]

The lands that now form Wales were only temporarily under the control of one leader before the English took over.

True, there were a number of states and rulers, but it was one contiguous nation of people with a common language. That language is arguably the reason for Wales still being considered a nation.

 

[Greenback]

True, there were a number of states and rulers, but it was one contiguous nation of people with a common language. That language is arguably the reason for Wales still being considered a nation.

Welsh is a development of the original language spoken by many peoples of these islands. It is related to Cornish, Breton and Gaelic, but has developed and evolved as all language does.

I don't think Welsh was spoken by all the inhabitants - there were Viking settlements, Irish settlements and Saxon settlements within what we now think of as Wales.

 

[oglord]

With all due respect to Zoe here is a classic example of the UK/England conundrum referred to by myself and Greenback.

"The remaining regions of the UK........."

This would lead one to believe that Scotland and indeed Wales and Northern are regions they are Countries.

I am sorry, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with referring to parts of the UK as "regions" - a "region" just means a part of something bigger. This whole nomenclature whereby we are supposed to have have "countries" within a country is nonsensical. Yes the word "country" just means a piece of land too, so why make the distinction between a "region" and a "country"?

 

[Butts]

I am sorry, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with referring to parts of the UK as "regions" - a "region" just means a part of something bigger. This whole nomenclature whereby we are supposed to have have "countries" within a country is nonsensical. Yes the word "country" just means a piece of land too, so why make the distinction between a "region" and a "country"?

The problem normally arises when Scotland or Wales are regarded as a region in the same respect as The West Midlands or The North East which are regions of England.

You very rarely (if ever) hear England described as region in the above context.

We do indeed have countries within countries within the UK/GB.

Namely England , Scotland , Wales for GB and add on Northern Ireland for the UK. United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

If you don't think Wales is a seperate country try attending an International Fixture between Wales and England at rugby or football.

If you don't think Scotland is a seperate country try counselling opinion in a Glasgow Pub on a Saturday Night.

 

[Zoe]

You very rarely (if ever) hear England described as region in the above context.

England is not a single region, it contains nine different regions.

 

[michael769]

England is not a single region, it contains nine different regions.

Like wise Scotland is not a single region, and indeed has own different regions.