Tube delays causing me to miss train.

[ap]

Unsure if this goes in this forum or the general forum,but here goes.

I was booked on the 06.55am this morning from London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly.

I had to get the Victoria Line ( London Underground ) from Brixton to Euston which I boarded at 06.10am.

The tube set off slowly and when we reached Vauxhall the driver advised us the tube was going to be fixed. After waiting for 10 minutes it turned out it couldn't be fixed and we would have to be taken to London Victoria and get the next tube. By this time it was 06.45am when it normally takes 10 minutes.

The tube got to Euston at 07.05am ( by which time obviously the train had left ) . The tube staff at Euston advised they would speak to Virgin and out us on the next train and to go and relay this information to the Virgin customer services.
When I spoke to them they confirmed this wasn't the case and I would have to buy and on the day single ( £45 ). I advised them it wasn't my fault and that TFL had confirmed this happens often and they always allow people on the next train. Virgin wouldn't budge.

I then went back to the tube staff who claimed it wasn't their problem and it's Virgin's discression. I asked the tube staff if TFL would refund the price of a new ticket of which they couldn't guarantee.

I went back to Virgin who then said they could change my ticket for £30 which I refused as I couldn't be guaranteed a refund.

TFL have advised me to send my tickets in and a refund will be considered.

Just seeing if anybody had had a similar experience and if so did you get a refund?

Thanks

 

[es373]

Surely after ten mins of set down you wouldn't stay on the train. You'd find an alternative route?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Its not clear what ticket type you had for the Euston - Manchester journey, but if it was an 'Advance' ticket, then NO, it does not allow you the automatic right to travel on another train if you are delayed on the tube.

The conditions of 'Advance' tickets DO allow you to travel later if you are delayed on an earlier train, but for this condition, the London Underground is not considered to be 'a train'. I know they look like trains and work like trains, but their delays don't trigger the dispensation to be carried later on you existing ticket.

If you had another ticket type then this advice will not apply to your journey.

 

[ap]

Surely after ten mins of set down you wouldn't stay on the train. You'd find an alternative route?

I would've normally but the tube had passed stockwell ( i was unable to change to the northern line) so the only alternative would've been a bus from vauxhall which would've been touch and go getting there
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its not clear what ticket type you had for the Euston - Manchester journey, but if it was an 'Advance' ticket, then NO, it does not allow you the automatic right to travel on another train if you are delayed on the tube.

The conditions of 'Advance' tickets DO allow you to travel later if you are delayed on an earlier train, but for this condition, the London Underground is not considered to be 'a train'. I know they look like trains and work like trains, but their delays don't trigger the dispensation to be carried later on you existing ticket.

If you had another ticket type then this advice will not apply to your journey.

It was an advance single which I appreciate doesn't give me licence to travel on any train but the TFL guard stated this often happens and they often consult with Virgin and let people get the next train.

I would've accepted the £10 admin fee but not the £30 quoted.

I'm going to apply for a refund but was just enquiring if anybody had any luck with this.

cheers

 

[T163R]

You shouldn't have waited.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I would've normally but the tube had passed stockwell ( i was unable to change to the northern line) so the only alternative would've been a bus from vauxhall which would've been touch and go getting there

Southbound Victoria line back to Stockwell then Northern. Or alight at Vauxhall, in to Waterloo on BR then Northern.

 

[AlterEgo]

TfL won't refund your additional costs, I'm afraid. Train companies can't be held responsible for the consequences of delays.

Your best bet is to call Virgin and see what they say.

 

[Old Timer]

....I'm going to apply for a refund but was just enquiring if anybody had any luck with this.

cheers

This is known as "consequential loss" and the terms and conditions of issue will exclude liability for this. It is the same in most forms of insurance concerning things outside the immediate item/insurance policy.

I am afraid that the onus is upon you to get to Euston on time, and whilst in this case even getting off and going south to come back north again may have possibly made the train, I doubt it. Unfortunately there is always a dilemma in such situations - wait for the problem to be imminently fixed or alter route and maybe take longer.

It is for occurrences like this that travel insurance is available. Now it might be that there is a form of card issuers travel insurance if you bought the ticket on a card, or your household insurance policy may cover that.

 

[ap]

This is known as "consequential loss" and the terms and conditions of issue will exclude liability for this. It is the same in most forms of insurance concerning things outside the immediate item/insurance policy.

I am afraid that the onus is upon you to get to Euston on time, and whilst in this case even getting off and going south to come back north again may have possibly made the train, I doubt it. Unfortunately there is always a dilemma in such situations - wait for the problem to be imminently fixed or alter route and maybe take longer.

It is for occurrences like this that travel insurance is available. Now it might be that there is a form of card issuers travel insurance if you bought the ticket on a card, or your household insurance policy may cover that.

Thanks for the info. I thought I may have been flogging a dead horse and it turns out TFL agree

Thank you for contacting us about the problems on the Victoria line on 30 August.

I apologise for the service disruption that day and the inconvenience caused. I appreciate how frustrating this experience must have been for you. This was due to a faulty train at Stockwell at around 06:40 that led to minor delays to the rest of the line until about 07:00

It also seems you were not given the correct information about the nature and severity of the delays throughout your journey. Train drivers are aware that an announcement must be made at least every 3 minutes during any disruption. We also understand the importance of correct information being made available in order for customers to plan alternative routes for their journeys. On occasions, the driver may have no new information with which to provide an update. However, they should still make an announcement to the customers, apologising for the delay, and informing them that they will receive an update as soon as the information becomes available. I am sorry to hear that you did not experience this.

Whilst I have noted your comments, I regret that I must advise you that we are unable to process your request for a full refund for your tickets.



Under the terms of our Customer Charter you are entitled to claim the single fare for any Underground journey on which you are delayed by fifteen minutes or longer and it was our fault. Claims should be submitted within fourteen days of the delay either online at www.tfl.gov.uk/tuberefund or using a claim form from the leaflet rack of one of our stations.



We will normally consider claims for delays that are within our control, under the terms of our Customer Charter. However, we are not liable for extra costs incurred as a result of the disruption. I'm sorry to disappoint you in this respect.



It is possible that Virgin Trains may be able to consider a refund of the additional ticket that you purchased. You can contact them at:

 

[Wolfie]

ap

Believe this should be in the National Rail/Tickets, fares and routing forum, not this one - you might ask a mod to move it.

People are right here that there is no liability on London Underground. This may not be the case with respect to Virgin. There are a number of streams on the forum I mention above which are similar. One I posted is:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50527

The key is what ticket you used to travel to Euston and, if it was a PAYG Oyster, what steps you took then. See Yorkie's posts at number 8 and 15 for more info. Note also my own number 9.....I am afraid some Virgin staff at Euston have a bit of an attitude issue....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Suggest you PM Yorkie or AlterEgo who can probably assist.

 

[yorkie]

I will move this into the correct forum now.

However, as I do not know what ticket you had I am unable to give a definitive answer.

If you started your journey at Brixton:

If you had a Zone U12 London to Manchester Stations ticket, you are covered.

Or if you combined Oyster PAYG for a journey commencing on LU, with an advance ticket from London Terminals to Manchester Stations, you are not covered.
​

Or if you started your journey before Brixton and transferred to the Victoria Line there

Then you are covered, provided you allowed the minimum interchange time for the journey.
​

If you can provide us with more information, we can assist further.

Even if you are not officially allowed to compensation, if you send in all the tickets to Virgin Customer Services, you are likely to at least get a refund of the cheaper original ticket purchased, and may also get a refund of the more expensive replacement ticket.

 

[ap]

I will move this into the correct forum now.

However, as I do not know what ticket you had I am unable to give a definitive answer.

If you started your journey at Brixton:

If you had a Zone U12 London to Manchester Stations ticket, you are covered.

Or if you combined Oyster PAYG for a journey commencing on LU, with an advance ticket from London Terminals to Manchester Stations, you are not covered.
​

Or if you started your journey before Brixton and transferred to the Victoria Line there

Then you are covered, provided you allowed the minimum interchange time for the journey.
​

If you can provide us with more information, we can assist further.

Even if you are not officially allowed to compensation, if you send in all the tickets to Virgin Customer Services, you are likely to at least get a refund of the cheaper original ticket purchased, and may also get a refund of the more expensive replacement ticket.

Sorry, I didn’t make it clear what ticket I had.

It was an Advance single from London terminals to Manchester Piccadilly.
I started the journey at Brixton.
I have been in contact with LondonTravelwatch and this was their response

I’m sorry you missed your train journey from Euston to Manchester Piccadilly on 17 September because of a delayed underground journey. I can only imagine how frustrating it must’ve been for you.

I’ve been in contact with Virgin Trains and they’ve agreed to refund the advance tickets you’d bought and not used. Mr Thacker won’t refund you the cost of the new tickets as you missed the train was not the fault of Virgin. Can you please send them to:
It appears being persistent/annoying sod you get a refund.

 

[John @ home]

It was an Advance single from London terminals to Manchester Piccadilly.
I started the journey at Brixton.

What did you use for the Brixton - Euston leg?

I have been in contact with LondonTravelwatch and this was their response

I’m sorry you missed your train journey from Euston to Manchester Piccadilly on 17 September because of a delayed underground journey. I can only imagine how frustrating it must’ve been for you.

I’ve been in contact with Virgin Trains and they’ve agreed to refund the advance tickets you’d bought and not used. Mr Thacker won’t refund you the cost of the new tickets as you missed the train was not the fault of Virgin. Can you please send them to:

Who is Mr Thacker? What position does he hold?

 

[yorkie]

I’m sorry you missed your train journey from Euston to Manchester Piccadilly on 17 September because of a delayed underground journey. I can only imagine how frustrating it must’ve been for you.

I’ve been in contact with Virgin Trains and they’ve agreed to refund the advance tickets you’d bought and not used. Mr Thacker won’t refund you the cost of the new tickets as you missed the train was not the fault of Virgin. Can you please send them to:
It appears being persistent/annoying sod you get a refund.

Virgin will agree to do this, as a minimum. Did you contact them directly? You're meant to contact the TOC directly first, and if the TOC doesn't give a satisfactory response then it should be referred to Passenger Focus or London Travelwatch (as appropriate).

Also, the "fault" isn't really the issue here, but if you had bought a ticket from "Zone U12 London" then you would have been covered, regardless of "fault". The cost is not much more than a ticket from London Terminals. Worth bearing in mind for next time.

 

[ap]

What did you use for the Brixton - Euston leg?

I used a PAYG oyster card.

Who is Mr Thacker? What position does he hold?

According to the E-Mail he is a 'Customer Relation Executive' for Virgin.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Virgin will agree to do this, as a minimum. Did you contact them directly? You're meant to contact the TOC directly first, and if the TOC doesn't give a satisfactory response then it should be referred to Passenger Focus or London Travelwatch (as appropriate).

Also, the "fault" isn't really the issue here, but if you had bought a ticket from "Zone U12 London" then you would have been covered, regardless of "fault". The cost is not much more than a ticket from London Terminals. Worth bearing in mind for next time.

Cheers for the heads up. Next time I'll definetly make sure it's a 'Zone U12' rather than terminals. The extra cost if any is well worth it.

 

[bengolding]

According to the E-Mail he is a 'Customer Relation Executive' for Virgin.

Mr Thacker works for the Chief Executive's Office @ VT, and probably deals with high level complaints. Spoke with him about a complaint a few months back.

 

[Daz28]

Also, the "fault" isn't really the issue here, but if you had bought a ticket from "Zone U12 London" then you would have been covered, regardless of "fault". The cost is not much more than a ticket from London Terminals. Worth bearing in mind for next time.

Can you get advance fares from Zone U12 London? I couldn't work out how to do that on the Virgin website.

 

[mallard]

Can you get advance fares from Zone U12 London? I couldn't work out how to do that on the Virgin website.

I'm not sure how you get them on Virgin's site, but they show up for me on East Coast's site when I select "Brixton (Tube)" as the origin.

Having said that, I can't seem to actually get any fares from "Zone U12* Londn" to show up even though the ticket type is clearly there. I can get fares for "Brixton" to show up though and these would (probably!) be valid via the tube.

 

[EltonRoad]

On Virgin's site, just enter "London Zone 1" (or 2) as the origin or destination.

 

[button_boxer]

Isn't a destination of "London zones 1-x" a travelcard rather than a single?

 

[island]

LONDON ZONES 1-2 yes. ZONE U12* LONDN no.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Having said that, I can't seem to actually get any fares from "Zone U12* Londn" to show up even though the ticket type is clearly there. I can get fares for "Brixton" to show up though and these would (probably!) be valid via the tube.

The journey planner can't plan a journey if it doesn't have a station as the origin, so it can't check quotas and book seats. A journey plan from Kilburn Park (zone 2) would be different to that from Stockwell (zone 2).

Brixton has two sets of fares which are both valid on LUL services, origin 'Brixton' and origin 'Zone U12 LONDN' and are 'Rte +VWC & Connections'. The U12 fare is higher though.

 

[paul1609]

I reckon that there is a fare for Zone U12 to Manchester Advance tickets but no quota because of possible delay issues. The fare exists because there are quotas for Manchester to Zone 12 advances.

 

[Paul Kelly]

From observations I've surmised that quotas are based on the ticket type and the route on the ticket. The origin and destination on the ticket don't matter; if the ticket type (i.e. which tier of advance fares) and route are the same then the reservation comes out of the same quota for all origin/destination combinations.

 

[AlterEgo]

I reckon that there is a fare for Zone U12 to Manchester Advance tickets but no quota because of possible delay issues. The fare exists because there are quotas for Manchester to Zone 12 advances.

That's not correct. There certainly are quotas, generally priced a few quid higher than the "London Terminals" tickets.

 

[EltonRoad]

#indigo2

I think you're right ..

For example, on a fictitious Virgin train that stops at all principle stations from Manchester to London, booking a Fictitious Advance from Lichfield TV to Rugby would stop one person being able to book a Fictitious Advance from Manchester to London (but should still allow a Rugby to London as well).

 

[snail]

From observations I've surmised that quotas are based on the ticket type and the route on the ticket. The origin and destination on the ticket don't matter; if the ticket type i.e. which tier of advance fares) and route are the same then the reservation comes out of the same quota for all origin/destination combinations.

Not in my experience. I have often found AP tickets to London available from Lancaster when the same train from Preston or Wigan has none in the same price tier. Before the tightening of the AP 'starting long' rules it was a very useful loophole, at only £3 more than the fare from the later stations.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I just looked in NFM09 and the advance fares from both Preston and Lancaster to London seem to be exactly the same price. But there are two routes available: "VIRGIN TRNS ONLY" and "VWC & CONNECTNS". The VWC & CONNECTNS fares are in general a few pounds more expensive than the VIRGIN TRNS ONLY ones.

Could it have been that from Preston you were only being offered VIRGIN TRNS ONLY fares (where all the quota at the tier in question had sold out), while from Lancaster for some reason the booking engine was offering you VWC & CONNECTNS fares, and there was still some quota left at the equivalent tier for them - albeit priced at a couple of pounds more?

 

[snail]

Ah, they used to be different back in the day, so maybe the quotas are shared now after all.