Southern launch competition for 130 new carriages

[swt_passenger]

As an addition to this, wonder what the prospects are for additional lengthening and expanding of the Class 378 fleet, confess I am unsure if there are any platform length restrictions on where they operate currently, but the railway rumour mill is often indicating that a lot of the 'Metro' work is expected to transfer over to LOROL in the future.

TfL have published fairly detailed plans recently of how they want to extend 378s on their existing routes, with details of which platforms have to be extended and where SDO will have to be used, on the ELL, NLL and WLL, but further transfers of routes to TfL are not mentioned at all; there's still the normal speculation from the railway rumour mill as you say though...

Page 57/58 of this:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Item05-RUP-12-July-2011-HLOS2-recommendations.pdf

 

[LouJ]

We are seeing a lot of new train orders/possible train orders atm.....

350's for tpe, extra voyager carriages, this.... Have the DaFT started trusting the roscos and TOC's to run things again?

I am aware of the 350's and new stock for Southern. How much progress has the extra voyager coaches made apart from being an idea? Is the project under discussion or what?

 

[northwichcat]

I am aware of the 350's

350s are up to 10 for TPE to use on Manchester Airport to Scotland after electrification and 8 for LM to use as extra capacity. They'll form the same order but the TPE units will have a slightly different spec and be delivered before the LM units.

and new stock for Southern.

I'm sure you're aware of it now as you're posting in a thread related to it.

How much progress has the extra voyager coaches made apart from being an idea? Is the project under discussion or what?

DfT are looking at whether or not to place an order but importantly they are now considering ordering them when before Bombardier were trying to sell them.

 

[Minstral25]

TfL have published fairly detailed plans recently of how they want to extend 378s on their existing routes, with details of which platforms have to be extended and where SDO will have to be used, on the ELL, NLL and WLL, but further transfers of routes to TfL are not mentioned at all; there's still the normal speculation from the railway rumour mill as you say though...

Page 57/58 of this:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Item05-RUP-12-July-2011-HLOS2-recommendations.pdf

Yes but the services really need longer trains than 5 coaches.

 

[Pumbaa]

Confirmed now as 26 x 5 car which will replace the 377/5s.

 

[Class377/5]

Confirmed now as 26 x 5 car which will replace the 377/5s.

Makes sense. After all the current plan is the Southern Milton Keynes services will wait for the 377/5's before becoming 8 cars. Seems this plan is going to have to wait a bit long. Bet they wish the 377/5's were now /2's!

 

[fgwrich]

Interesting! Hope that somewhere along the line, this isnt being seen as a get shot of the 442s method!

 

[Class377/5]

Interesting! Hope that somewhere along the line, this isnt being seen as a get shot of the 442s method!

Doubtful as it's a step towards moving to a 10 car railway on the suburban railway rather than the BML.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think the suggestions that it also helps to cover for losing the 456s might be significant. 23 x 377/5 is 92 cars, so there's a reasonable headroom of 38 cars on top of the basic number needed to cope with the delayed return from Thameslink.

Or if the long term purpose (ie post Thameslink) is to release something else could it be the 313s - how long was their overhaul for SN duties supposed to fit them for - because by 2018 they'll have been around a while...

 

[Minstral25]

I think the suggestions that it also helps to cover for losing the 456s might be significant. 23 x 377/5 is 92 cars, so there's a reasonable headroom of 38 cars on top of the basic number needed to cope with the delayed return from Thameslink.

Or if the long term purpose (ie post Thameslink) is to release something else could it be the 313s - how long was their overhaul for SN duties supposed to fit them for - because by 2018 they'll have been around a while...

Will they lose the 456's as if they transfer to SWT it will make the 455's redundant on a 10-car suburban railway? Maybe the 455's and 456's will get transferred to SWT?

Or will the 455's be sent to the Coastway as replacements for the 313's? 4 coach no toilet is an improvement on 3-coach

In any case perhaps the number of extra units is because the general traffic numbers have increased significantly? I suspect we may get equivalents of the 376's with corridor connections rather than 377's

Bigger question is where will the 377/5's go now they will have been replaced in the plans at Southern?

 

[swt_passenger]

In any case perhaps the number of extra units is because the general traffic numbers have increased significantly? I suspect we may get equivalents of the 376's with corridor connections rather than 377's

Bigger question is where will the 377/5's go now they will have been replaced in the plans at Southern?

I don't see any major reason why the 377/5s won't come back to SN as well. It would be logical to start moving SN towards a mostly Electrostar based fleet, and as you say transfer the 455s and 456s to another TOC - almost certainly SWT. Then when all the 455s are life expired they can get a future SW franchisee to replace the whole fleet.

Going back to SN's new 5 car units though, I wonder if it is likely that they'll be 5 car 378 style, which isn't really that different to your 376 proposal - if they are to run primarily in the inner suburban area that would be a logical move, and TfL could even piggy back their proposed 5th coaches for LO on the same order...

 

[A-driver]

Rumours are still going round that southern will loose the 456s. There are also rumours that the south London will still run when LOROL start their service as stations on the route will loose their link to London terminals.

508s are apparently being considered but can only work onthe coast as they can't be cleared to run on the suburban services for the same reason that 313s can't run within london-the units are not cleared to run DOO.

I would imagen the new carriages will be built by yet another company to those already on the region to cause maximum disruption during failures. We already have 442s, 455/6, 377, 319 and 460s none of which are compatible in terms of assisting each other. If siemens build the TL stock then that will also pose similar issues so makes sense new carriages for southern will be incompatible with any of the existing stock...

 

[DjU]

I don't see any major reason why the 377/5s won't come back to SN as well. It would be logical to start moving SN towards a mostly Electrostar based fleet, and as you say transfer the 455s and 456s to another TOC - almost certainly SWT. Then when all the 455s are life expired they can get a future SW franchisee to replace the whole fleet.

Going back to SN's new 5 car units though, I wonder if it is likely that they'll be 5 car 378 style, which isn't really that different to your 376 proposal - if they are to run primarily in the inner suburban area that would be a logical move, and TfL could even piggy back their proposed 5th coaches for LO on the same order...

Intriguingly during the discussion of this on WNXX, Tony Miles seems to have indicated that Southern themselves are pushing for a considerably more that the indicated '130' carriages.

Unclear if thats purely for capacity boost or replacements, but could be an interesting one to watch.

 

[northwichcat]

Intriguingly during the discussion of this on WNXX, Tony Miles seems to have indicated that Southern themselves are pushing for a considerably more that the indicated '130' carriages.

Unclear if thats purely for capacity boost or replacements, but could be an interesting one to watch.

The HLOS statement Southern refer to is for 108 extra vehicles for Southern by the end of 2014, so 130 additional units is already more than there are due to get. On the other hand Northern will be 122 vehicles short unless they get something in place of the 319s before 2014. I hope the MPs representing the North of England question this in parliament.

 

[swt_passenger]

OTOH it's practically impossible to work out how the SN HLOS target was intended to be met, because since that number came up originally they replaced the GatEx 460s with the 442s, and added the 'coastway' 313s. The 442s happened in two stages, (was it 17 originally?), but obviously it is all 24 units now. So in vehicle terms they are 120 x 442s and 57 x 313s in credit, and 64 x 460s down, so just over 100 carriages up anyway?

I don't think it has ever been established if that lot was to meet the HLOS numbers, or if if it predated the HLOS announcement.

That isn't meant to be critical of your post by the way, just to point out that the original HLOS may have been met already, but I can't be sure...

 

[northwichcat]

That isn't meant to be critical of your post by the way, just to point out that the original HLOS may have been met already, but I can't be sure...

Yeah the problem is that was published based on predicted passenger numbers and before the electrification schemes were announced and an updated version didn't follow.

I said Northern will be 122 carriages short but they were due to get extra 2 and 3 car units. 4 car 319s are obviously less flexible as you can't have half of it running an off peak service with the other half being serviced like you can with a pair of 2 car DMUs, so the 122 carriages should maybe be increased for that reason but we don't know what DfT are or aren't thinking.

 

[paul1609]

I think that at least some of the extra coaches are to accomodate the fact that neither the East or West Coastway services will transfer to Thameslink as was originally envisaged.

 

[a1a.a1a]

I think that at least some of the extra coaches are to accomodate the fact that neither the East or West Coastway services will transfer to Thameslink as was originally envisaged.

Interesting, wher'd you hear that? Be good to have a delve in...

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting, wher'd you hear that? Be good to have a delve in...

The coastway destinations not transferring?

This first came to light in the South London RUS in May 2008. Repeated in all relevant RUS's since, and most recently in the London and SE RUS. It is mentioned in the small print under the original 'route map' on the Thameslink Programme website here:

http://www.thameslinkprogramme.co.uk/cms/pages/view/31

The latest Thameslink destinations are proposed to be:
Southern:
Brighton (4 tph - all below 2 tph)
Three Bridges
Horsham
East Grinstead
Caterham
Tattenham Corner

Southeastern:
Tunbridge Wells
Ashford
Maidstone East
Sevenoaks
Bellingham

 

[Rhydgaled]

No, 460s are useless for anything except airport work, 508s won't make any difference

Back in? They are the same now as they were when they were built.

It'd simply be too costly to be viable for 8 units, which are only 8 car anyway

In that case an idea might be to put the 460s back on airport work and use the 5-WES sets released from those airport duties to release any 377s on Brighton expresses.

It'll take that long to award a tender, draw up a contract, build the trains, test the trains and then deliver them. Siemens reportedly issued a warning relating to Manchester Airport to Scotland stock saying it needs to be confirmed this year if it is to be in service by the end of 2013.

If you want stock before 2013 then it's a choice of mk3 carriages or 508s.

I was thinking if the Thameslink cascades, triggered by the new Desiro City order (which already has reached preferd bidder stage), are not going to happen on time then there is no time for this contract to be any sort of new-build. Therefore, I assumed this new tender would be looking for a source to lease and maybe refurbish existing stored trains. That could be 508s, 460s or, if a suitable loco class exists, LHCS, but if one order of new trains cannot be completed soon enough for Southern then I would expect that any new order for a new-build couldn't be completed soon enough for Southern anyway.

As for the spare 377s when they are eventually released from Thameslink, I'd expect them just to replace the hired in 508s/460s/whatevers, unless this tender actually does get a new build done in time. In that case then the Thameslink cascades could perhaps be used to allow an electrification, Southern's diesel routes or somewhere away from the franchise?

 

[TEW]

In that case an idea might be to put the 460s back on airport work and use the 5-WES sets released from those airport duties to release any 377s on Brighton expresses.

The 460s will probably be going off to South West Trains though, rebuilt as 458s.

 

[MCR247]

Nothing confirmed yet though, could just build another 28 450 coaches

 

[Class377/5]

In that case an idea might be to put the 460s back on airport work and use the 5-WES sets released from those airport duties to release any 377s on Brighton expresses.

I was thinking if the Thameslink cascades, triggered by the new Desiro City order (which already has reached preferd bidder stage), are not going to happen on time then there is no time for this contract to be any sort of new-build. Therefore, I assumed this new tender would be looking for a source to lease and maybe refurbish existing stored trains. That could be 508s, 460s or, if a suitable loco class exists, LHCS, but if one order of new trains cannot be completed soon enough for Southern then I would expect that any new order for a new-build couldn't be completed soon enough for Southern anyway.

As for the spare 377s when they are eventually released from Thameslink, I'd expect them just to replace the hired in 508s/460s/whatevers, unless this tender actually does get a new build done in time. In that case then the Thameslink cascades could perhaps be used to allow an electrification, Southern's diesel routes or somewhere away from the franchise?

The 442's are useless as a commuter train due to the door design. They already screw up the timings on the Brighton line. Could be a case that once the 377/5's return they could then use 5 car 377's to get rid of the 442's.

With all the lengthening of trains, the idea of having the Milton Keynes - Croydon service become 8 cars and go half hourly means you'd need around 4 times more stock than now. Once the 377/5's return to Southern this can be done so these units will be more for the 10 car railway with the 377/5's now being used elsewhere than originally planned. Add in the half hourly shuttle between Croydon & Shepard's Bush and the need for more stock becomes clearer.

During HS2's building a 30min or even 15min service by Southern could help out Euston by allow people to change for Crossrail, Central and District lines without hitting zone 1.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The 442's are useless as a commuter train due to the door design. They already screw up the timings on the Brighton line. Could be a case that once the 377/5's return they could then use 5 car 377's to get rid of the 442's.

The question is, are the Brighton expresses an outersuburban/commuter service? Alternativly, are they an express, almost Intercity, service like the SWT routes the 5-WESes were used on before, in which case the 5-WESes are probablly more suitable than a 377? SWT now have 444s for those jobs, although they don't have enough 444s for the Portsmouth fasts. Maybe if the Brighton expresses are better with 377s as you say, the 5-WESes could go back to SWT when the 377/5s are released. If you don't do that, then I think the best way to deal with any requirement for a few 450s would be to order more 444s for the Portsmouth fasts to release some 450s from that.

 

[northwichcat]

As for the future of the 377/5s if Southern get a new order maybe the MD of NX had the right idea when he said electrify the Southern 171 routes, cascade the 171s to NXEA (converted back to 170s) and then cascade the NXEA 153s and 156s as possible Pacer replacements. This could give the 377/5s a future usage.

 

[Rhydgaled]

As for the future of the 377/5s if Southern get a new order maybe the MD of NX had the right idea when he said electrify the Southern 171 routes, cascade the 171s to NXEA (converted back to 170s) and then cascade the NXEA 153s and 156s as possible Pacer replacements. This could give the 377/5s a future usage.

Depending on the types of service operated by the Sprinters with NXEA and the Pacers you would replace it might be better to use the 170s to replace Pacers directly, or cascade 150s to replace the Pacers. Like 377s veruses 5-WES on the Brighton line, I think thought needs to be given to what type of unit is most suitable where when planning cascades.

 

[northwichcat]

Depending on the types of service operated by the Sprinters with NXEA and the Pacers you would replace it might be better to use the 170s to replace Pacers directly, or cascade 150s to replace the Pacers. Like 377s veruses 5-WES on the Brighton line, I think thought needs to be given to what type of unit is most suitable where when planning cascades.

I imagine Mr NX MD was using the logic that NXEA will have a consistent 170 fleet while Northern already have 153s and 156s.

For capacity reasons I'd suggest NXEA gets the 171/1s (10 x 2 car) plus the TPE 170s (9 x 2 car), releasing their 153s and 156s to Northern.

TPE then gets the 171/8s (6 x 4 car) plus 3 of the NXEA 3 car 170s as 2 car DMUs with no corridor connections should not be on TPE services.

As NXEA would gain 15 carriages maybe they could also release an additional 3 170 centre cars to TPE so all the TPE 170s could be 4 car.

However, saying that I don't know how suitable 170s are on the NXEA Sprinter routes.

 

[tbtc]

The 442's are useless as a commuter train due to the door design. They already screw up the timings on the Brighton line. Could be a case that once the 377/5's return they could then use 5 car 377's to get rid of the 442's.

With all the lengthening of trains, the idea of having the Milton Keynes - Croydon service become 8 cars and go half hourly means you'd need around 4 times more stock than now. Once the 377/5's return to Southern this can be done so these units will be more for the 10 car railway with the 377/5's now being used elsewhere than originally planned. Add in the half hourly shuttle between Croydon & Shepard's Bush and the need for more stock becomes clearer.

During HS2's building a 30min or even 15min service by Southern could help out Euston by allow people to change for Crossrail, Central and District lines without hitting zone 1.

Are these planned to happen?

A fifteen minute service from Croydon to Shepherd's Bush would be brilliant, but wasn't aware of any serious suggestion (?)

 

[swt_passenger]

Are these planned to happen?

A fifteen minute service from Croydon to Shepherd's Bush would be brilliant, but wasn't aware of any serious suggestion (?)

The half hourly 8 car SN WLL service is a London and SE RUS proposal, but only when suitable dual voltage stock becomes available.

In TfL's CP5 HLOS proposals they recommend that the Clapham Jn to Shepherds Bush peak extras run all day, giving a 4 tph SN service on the very busiest section, but every 15 min to/from Croydon isn't formally mentioned anywhere that I can find.

Thing is, running DC units as far as Shepherds Bush is relatively straightforward assuming paths are there north of Clapham Jn - they could even do something really revolutionary and run them onto the Windsor lines if they can't easily reach Croydon.

 

[northwichcat]

The half hourly 8 car SN WLL service is a London and SE RUS proposal, but only when suitable dual voltage stock becomes available.

There must be hundreds of statements like that scattered across the various RUS'. I wonder how many of them will actually be actioned before 2020.