Cable theft @ Wakefield

[Yorkswatcher]

just south of wakefield no trains in or out of westgate Ive been here since 6.40. Everything either cancelled or on divert

 

[Whistler40145]

This situation is getting worse & I don't know what Network Rail & British Transport Police can do.

 

[HST Power]

Taken from the EC Website.

Train services between Wakefield Westgate and Doncaster are being disrupted due to a problem with line-side equipment in the South Kirby area.Engineers are working as fast as possible to restore services to normal. Delays of up to 20 minutes can be expected.

Cancellations are in place, with some services making additional stops at Retford.

 

[SteveP29]

This situation is getting worse & I don't know what Network Rail & British Transport Police can do.

I can unfortunately see the probability that all railway lines will be fenced off for their full length, just to stop people from getting access to the lines, which is going to make it a very boring view for most travellers. I can also see a drawback to that, in that people would probably still be able to get onto the lines via level crossings

 

[BestWestern]

I can unfortunately see the probability that all railway lines will be fenced off for their full length, just to stop people from getting access to the lines, which is going to make it a very boring view for most travellers. I can also see a drawback to that, in that people would probably still be able to get onto the lines via level crossings

Unfortunately that still wouldn't stop it, as people would still be able to access the trackside simply by walking off the end of a platform, or if that was fenced just by jumping off the edge! We'll never have a secure network, there's just too much of it to fence off.

The 'solution' will probably come in the form of the next global meltdown when China and India stop building things and metal prices eventually fall again :roll: It will happen sooner or later; I remember when Councils had a major problem with peope abandoning scrap vehicles on the the roads because even as scrap metal they had no value!

 

[brompton rail]

The line IS fenced!

 

[Lampshade]

Is there any alternative to copper wire? The government could scrap the copper themselves, using the money gained to finance the replacement.

 

[Max]

Isn't much of the cabling being replaced by fibre-optic? But I gather it's a slow process.

 

[142094]

Isn't much of the cabling being replaced by fibre-optic? But I gather it's a slow process.

It is but still gets ripped up. In many cases you hear cable theft but half the time it is either abandonded on site or the cables are cut and nothing more.

Couple of things I have heard being done include SmartWater, filling cable ducts with expanding foam and burying the cables under ballast.

 

[BestWestern]

The line IS fenced!

It is, but I think the post was meaning something along the lines of a big high security fence, hence the comment about the view being boring. Current lineside fencing varies from quite secure in some places to totally pointless in others, but it can't stop those who are determined to get lineside as there will always be other, easier means of access.

Smartwater is being used in some places as I understand it, but of course you have to catch your suspect before it is of any use, and it won't have stoped the initial theft. If 750v/25,000v etc plus known cases of death and serious injury aren't an effective deterrant, then I'd doubt whether Smartwater will do much good. What we need is for a much harsher response, in particular for the railway to use terrorism law as the basis for much of its security procedure in the same way as the aviation industry does, and let the hard penalties do the work. You don't tend to hear of scumbags ripping up the cabling outside airports and wrecking the navigation gear, presumably because the prospect of being arrested by a crowd of police pointing firearms at your face and then doing serious time for endangering aircraft isn't worth the measly few quid they actually make out of it.

 

[Minilad]

Electrify the cables at 25kv. That should stop em !!

Trouble is it is such a difficult crime to catch in the act. The thief's know the chances of them caught are very slim so they are more likely to attempt it. And of course they can get rid of the stolen goods so easy with so many dodgy scrap merchants around to take it 'no questions asked'

 

[SteveP29]

Originally Posted by brompton rail View Post
The line IS fenced!

It is, but I think the post was meaning something along the lines of a big high security fence

Sorry, yes, that was what I was meaning, taking for example at home in Chster le Street, south of the station, running until the edge of town is a 10ft high security fence.

 

[talltim]

Wonder what the scrap value of 10 foot security fences is?

 

[Phil6219]

Wonder what the scrap value of 10 foot security fences is?

I can think of a few places that would happen too...

Phil

 

[Crossover]

Things seem to be OK again now - I passed through Leeds at about 12 lunchtime and again at about 3pm and there were 91's heading down towards Wakefield.

To be honest, I was looking out as I travelled back to Leeds on the Harrogate line this afternoon and couldn't help but think it is easy pickings...for quite a distance there was a green cable laid loosely on the side of the tracks (going under the platforms) - it was only after Weeton (I think) that it then disappeared into ducting. I've seen similar on the Huddersfield line too.

As others have said, yes, I believe some cabling is fibre optic BUT replacing it is no easy or cheap task and it also cannot carry power, so copper cabling is still needed to provide power to the signals (I believe, anyway)

 

[SussexMan]

Presumably this is one crime where the action of it being done can be instantly detected by the signaller. How easy is it for them to pin-point the location of the theft; precisely, within a 500m stretch, or within a 10 mile stretch etc? Would a normal "fault" have the same effect for the signaller or can they pretty much tell what might have happened?

How easy is it for the police to get to the location and stop transits etc on surrounding roads? Must take a little while to load the cable into the back of a van.

Then there is of course the market to sell it on...

 

[BestWestern]

Presumably this is one crime where the action of it being done can be instantly detected by the signaller. How easy is it for them to pin-point the location of the theft; precisely, within a 500m stretch, or within a 10 mile stretch etc? Would a normal "fault" have the same effect for the signaller or can they pretty much tell what might have happened?

How easy is it for the police to get to the location and stop transits etc on surrounding roads? Must take a little while to load the cable into the back of a van.

Then there is of course the market to sell it on...

I've no idea exactly how a cable theft incident would manifest itself in the 'box, but I'd imagine in the current climate a Signaller would be immediately suspicious of a sudden major power outage or widespread equipment failure. What is really needed here are helicopters. If the BTP could work with the regular forces and get the nearest chopper in the air, it would be a big help. After all, this isn't just a railway crime, these thieving scumbags are flogging the stuff to bent scrapmen and similar thefts are affecting other industries also.

There is already steadily increasing demand for much stricter controls on the metal merchants, but of course whatever laws are in place are of little concern to those who operate with a widespread disregard for the rules

 

[strange6]

Up in Lancaster, people have been without internet and phones for 5 days due to cable theft. The situation is now well out of control and only stiff sentences of years in prison will go anywhere near to curing the problem

 

[BestWestern]

Up in Lancaster, people have been without internet and phones for 5 days due to cable theft. The situation is now well out of control and only stiff sentences of years in prison will go anyway to curing the problem

Agreed

 

[NightatLaira]

It is but still gets ripped up. In many cases you hear cable theft but half the time it is either abandonded on site or the cables are cut and nothing more.

Couple of things I have heard being done include SmartWater, filling cable ducts with expanding foam and burying the cables under ballast.

Could signalling all be done by radio/microwave/wireless technology these days instead of 'hardwired infrastructure'? Perhaps even a repeating meassage along the sheathing of: 'this is not a copper cable it is fibre-optic' might help deter theives.

That and the airport style terrorism penalties!

 

[lincolnshire]

Cable theft again,
When the goverment change the law and make all scrap yards stop paying out for scrap of any sort in cash, then things might start changeing. If scrap yards only paid out by chegue or bank card credit the you have details of who has been selling items to the scrap yard. Another good idea would be if the scrap yard required positive I.D. of the person selling the scrap, drivers linence, photo identy etc, and a copy of it lept to go with the scrap yards paperwork. How much VAT etc is lost by the country through no paperwork deals etc in cash?
If I have to provide photo I.D. and adress information aswell as the card posted through my letter box to collect my parcel from the delivery company then its not much more to expect a scarp yard to ask for the same if buying scrap.
Another thing I would like tested out is to have a police officer at the scrap yard for the day and see how many change there mind about selling there scrap that day?
If Network Rail and B.T. Police pressed for attempted manslaughter and imprisonment for cable theft it might focus a few minds that this is where they will end up, but Network Rail don,t want to because they could be said to be not operating a safe railway, instead of saying we run a safe railway if people leave our equipment alone.
The Green cable on the lineside is a fibre optic cable, it was deemed that was the place it would run just laid on the surface. Another reason for someone to go and see what it is and is it worth nicking.

 

[radamfi]

Does cable theft from railway signalling exist outside the UK?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Very much so - major problem in Europe - the NS had a collision due to points being stripped of metal (in this case , possibly an inside job)

 

[michael769]

Up in Lancaster, people have been without internet and phones for 5 days due to cable theft. The situation is now well out of control and only stiff sentences of years in prison will go anywhere near to curing the problem

You also have to catch them though. Deterrence only works when criminals fear getting caught as much as the penalties.

The problem is that the railways travel through miles of relatively empty areas, where it takes so long to get enough police (one or two officers just won't cut it when you have a dozen possible escape routes) to seal off an area that the criminals will already be well on their way. Most cable thief are caught when they get stopped for an unrelated (often road traffic) matter, and a suspicious officer wonders why they have that kind of cable in their boot!

A helicopter would help but only if it happens to be near enough to an event, even then one white transit van looks like all the other white transit vans on the road.

The police rely heavily on intelligence where they get information that known cable thief are in an area and they can they monitor the likely hot-spots, but that only works if they get advance information.

It is a very difficult problem to solve to be honest - if there was a simple solution it would have already been implemented.

 

[142094]

Could signalling all be done by radio/microwave/wireless technology these days instead of 'hardwired infrastructure'? Perhaps even a repeating meassage along the sheathing of: 'this is not a copper cable it is fibre-optic' might help deter theives.

That and the airport style terrorism penalties!

Not without significant cost to upgrade all the systems across the UK. Look at the GSM-R masts that are being put up, in some areas they are already working to full bandwith capacity.

As someone has said the quickest thing make it stop will be either a clampdown on scrapyards or a swift drop in the price of scrap metal on the world markets.

 

[DannyBoy]

Another thing I would like tested out is to have a police officer at the scrap yard for the day and see how many change there mind about selling there scrap that day?

When cable thieves attacked the Tyne and Wear Metro just after the modernisation between Byker and Tynemouth, there was a heavy police presence outside the scrapyards in Walker for the 2 or 3 days after, and they were doing stop-checks on the vans in the area. Very much a case of "well youve nicked it, but you cant sell it here!"

Even on a regular day, you sometimes see Police patrolling the area and visiting the scrapyards.

 

[lincolnshire]

replyto Radmfi, does cable theft happen elsewhere.
I was reading in a newspaper in Cape Town in January that they too suffer exactly the same as us on the railways with copper theft, but they also had the the problem of cable theft from parked up rolling stock, these was been stripped of all the copper cables and then was not able to be used in service, and the cost of repairing the damage before the rolling stock could be put back into service.
I wonder how they deal with the people caught stealing the cable?

 

[Wyvern]

I wonder if it happens in Saudi Arabia.

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder if it happens in Saudi Arabia.

Good point. It probably doesn't.

However I'd rather live in a free UK with occasional railway stoppages, than in a vile sandbucket like Saudi Arabia

 

[CosherB]

The answer is licencing and regulating of the scrap metal industry. BT, among others, is pushing the government for this.