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Is it possible to swap/give/sell tickets

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19Sept2011

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Hi,

I've got a first class ticket (London STP to Derby on Moday 26th Sept leaving at 20.25) but I may not need it any more. Is it possible to pass this ticket to another person? It seems like a waste not to have the seats used.

Thanks for any help I may get.

J
 
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Aictos

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Best thing is to apply for a refund, bear in mind any ticket office can do refunds for example I brought a pair of Peterborough to Norwich return tickets from Potters Bar yet my circumstances changed and I was unable to use the tickets so as I was passing though Ely I applied for the refund there.

Ely then forwards the paperwork to FCC and I got a cheque for the refund.
 

hairyhandedfool

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If it is a 'walk-up' fare, you could claim a refund on it minus an admin fee. If it is an 'Advance' fare, you could change the date or time of travel for a £10 admin fee, however they are non-refundable.

Train tickets are sold subject to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (which is noted on the back of the ticket) and so are not transferable. If you would like a copy of the NRCoC, google "National Rail Conditions of Carriage" for a pdf download or ask at your local staffed station.
 

WelshBluebird

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If I'm right you cant sell tickets or give them to another person if it has your name on.

How does that work then?
What if you are buying a ticket on behalf of someone else?
Are you suggesting technically you can't do that?
In which case god knows how many companies, families, couples and individuals are breaking the rules.
(note, I have never seen any staff member look at the name on the ticket, probably because its so small and is a bit of a pain).
 

Oswyntail

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Could someone explain rationally and calmly why it is in the Conditions that tickets are non-transferable. Simplistically, transferring the ticket does not deprive the service provider of any income, or degrade the service for anyone else. An answer not along the lines of "The rules are the rules and always have been" would be interesting.
 

SickyNicky

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Could someone explain rationally and calmly why it is in the Conditions that tickets are non-transferable. Simplistically, transferring the ticket does not deprive the service provider of any income, or degrade the service for anyone else. An answer not along the lines of "The rules are the rules and always have been" would be interesting.

One reason might be the way fares are priced. Singles are often virtually the same price as a return. So if I were to buy a return then re-sell the return portion at my destination, the train company is losing out on the possible revenue of two singles.

Not saying that I agree with the pricing, mind you.

On the subject of whether you can buy tickets for other people, my understanding is that the ticket is valid for the person for whom it was originally bought, regardless of any name on the ticket. I suppose different rules apply for e-tickets where you may need to prove your identity.
 

firespire

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Could someone explain rationally and calmly why it is in the Conditions that tickets are non-transferable.

Sometimes a rule like that is to prevent ticket touting. I don't know if there would be any money to be made in buying all the cheapest Advance tickets for a train and selling them to people on the day. People may be put off train travel if they can't get hold of the cheaper Advance tickets.
 

Old Timer

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Could someone explain rationally and calmly why it is in the Conditions that tickets are non-transferable. Simplistically, transferring the ticket does not deprive the service provider of any income, or degrade the service for anyone else. An answer not along the lines of "The rules are the rules and always have been" would be interesting.
It goes back to the basis of the Contract between the Railway and the passenger.

A Railway ticket is issued under the basis of Contract Law which requires the contract to be between two specified parties because both parties in effect agree to be bound by specific terms and conditions.

In law the person being so bound has to agree to those conditions direct with the other party.

This made the transfer of a railway ticket impossible because the Contract would be null and void because the agreement would have been with the original passenger not the later passenger.

In recent years the conditions have been eased so that a person can act as an "agent" and buy a ticket for another party. The agent is considered to be authorised to accept the terms and conditions of the ticket on behalf of the actual passenger.

People try to make a comparison with items purchased in a shop, but in this case there is a transfer of ownership of a physical item. Witha Railway ticket there is no transfer of ownership, only an agreement for carriage of the passenger from A to B for the fare agreed between both parties.

It is all rather dry and academic, and best left.
 

WelshBluebird

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People try to make a comparison with items purchased in a shop, but in this case there is a transfer of ownership of a physical item. Witha Railway ticket there is no transfer of ownership, only an agreement for carriage of the passenger from A to B for the fare agreed between both parties.

That brings up an interesting point though.
If the important bit is the contract / agreement, and not the physical ticket itself, then why can't people not travel on reservation details if they have been unable to pick up their already bought ticket from the station? They have already paid for it, and the railways have agreed to the sale, so surely that constitutes a contract / agreement for travel?

Of course, I know the "real" answer. Simply that allowing travel just on the reservation details is essentially asking for people to take advantage. Because of that, I am not actually suggesting we start letting people travel on reservation details willy nilly as it would be chaos and it would lead to a pretty large increase in fare evasion.
However, it does seem, at least to me, that there is a fair bit of the rail industry making things up as it goes along (when it suits the industry, buying a ticket is just a contract, and when it suits the industry, the physical item itself is important).

(Please correct me if I am wrong anywhere, and I do realise that sometimes guards will let a person travel if they just have the reservation details, without having to pay anything extra, in some circumstances).
 

LexyBoy

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Of course you can.
Incorrect. Read condition 6 in the NRCOC, byelaw 21(1), byelaw 21(2), 21(3) and 22.

No, you can give / sell tickets to another person.

The byelaws you quote state that you may not sell them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've got a first class ticket (London STP to Derby on Moday 26th Sept leaving at 20.25) but I may not need it any more. Is it possible to pass this ticket to another person? It seems like a waste not to have the seats used.

If the ticket was originally bought for you then it is not permitted. If you bought it for the person you give it to, then that's fine ;).

Re-selling however is never allowed unless you're a licensed agent.
 
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island

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That brings up an interesting point though.
If the important bit is the contract / agreement, and not the physical ticket itself, then why can't people not travel on reservation details if they have been unable to pick up their already bought ticket from the station? They have already paid for it, and the railways have agreed to the sale, so surely that constitutes a contract / agreement for travel?

Of course, I know the "real" answer. Simply that allowing travel just on the reservation details is essentially asking for people to take advantage. Because of that, I am not actually suggesting we start letting people travel on reservation details willy nilly as it would be chaos and it would lead to a pretty large increase in fare evasion.
However, it does seem, at least to me, that there is a fair bit of the rail industry making things up as it goes along (when it suits the industry, buying a ticket is just a contract, and when it suits the industry, the physical item itself is important).

(Please correct me if I am wrong anywhere, and I do realise that sometimes guards will let a person travel if they just have the reservation details, without having to pay anything extra, in some circumstances).

Because they might have given the ticket to someone else and the gripper can't prove the ticket he's given has also been used on a reservation by someone at the other end of the train.
 

ralphchadkirk

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The byelaws I have quoted prevent the sale and transfer (I.e giving) of tickets.


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Old Timer

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That brings up an interesting point though.
If the important bit is the contract / agreement, and not the physical ticket itself, then why can't people not travel on reservation details if they have been unable to pick up their already bought ticket from the station? They have already paid for it, and the railways have agreed to the sale, so surely that constitutes a contract / agreement for travel?

Of course, I know the "real" answer. Simply that allowing travel just on the reservation details is essentially asking for people to take advantage. Because of that, I am not actually suggesting we start letting people travel on reservation details willy nilly as it would be chaos and it would lead to a pretty large increase in fare evasion.
However, it does seem, at least to me, that there is a fair bit of the rail industry making things up as it goes along (when it suits the industry, buying a ticket is just a contract, and when it suits the industry, the physical item itself is important).

(Please correct me if I am wrong anywhere, and I do realise that sometimes guards will let a person travel if they just have the reservation details, without having to pay anything extra, in some circumstances).
There is no "making things up as it goes along..." and I do not know how you can reach the view
(when it suits the industry, buying a ticket is just a contract, and when it suits the industry, the physical item itself is important)
The NCoC are quite clear. A ticket is required for travel and this has been a legal requirement for over 160 odd years. Reservation documents are required to demonstrate that you have reserved a seat and are quite different.



No, you can give / sell tickets to another person.

The byelaws you quote state that you may not sell them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


If the ticket was originally bought for you then it is not permitted. If you bought it for the person you give it to, then that's fine ;).

Re-selling however is never allowed unless you're a licensed agent.
A licensed seller is not re-selling they are acting as an agent selling on behalf of the passenger. The difference is important.

The term "may not" is a legal direction of prohibition.
 
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Bungle73

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Who's going to know if you give your unused tickets to someone else? No one, that's who (obviously apart from you and the other party). I'd have no qualms about it, that's for sure.
 

WelshBluebird

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There is no "making things up as it goes along..." and I do not know how you can reach the view The NCoC are quite clear. A ticket is required for travel and this has been a legal requirement for over 160 odd years. Reservation documents are required to demonstrate that you have reserved a seat and are quite different.

I'll try to explain it better.

You implied in your previous post that when you buy a ticket, it isn't the physical ticket itself that is important, it is the contract / agreement that you make when you buy it that is important (which is why you can't sell or pass on tickets you buy).

Now, if you buy your tickets online and select to pick them up on departure, surely that contract / agreement is made when you buy (and pay for) the tickets?

Now, if you have made that contract / agreement, then surely as long as you can provide proof (say a email receipt), then since the physical ticket itself is not important (the contract / agreement is), then you should be allowed to travel on that basis?

Of course, as I said, doing so would be utter chaos and would not be a good idea. But it does appear that the railways take two different views when it suits them. In regards to selling tickets (and people selling them on etc), it is viewed that the contract / agreement made is important. But in regards to travelling, it is view that the physical item itself (the ticket) is important. It just seems a bit odd thats all.

Because they might have given the ticket to someone else and the gripper can't prove the ticket he's given has also been used on a reservation by someone at the other end of the train.

Yeah, as I said, I know the "real" reason is to prevent fare evasion. But it does show how the railways take different views to suit their own needs.
 

LexyBoy

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A licensed seller is not re-selling they are acting as an agent selling on behalf of the passenger. The difference is important.

You're correct of course - as you say, "reselling" doesn't make sense in a contractual context (as opposed to selling goods).

The term "may not" is a legal direction of prohibition.

Yes, and prohibition is not the same as prevention. A '70' sign on a motorway prohibits, but does not prevent, a motorist driving at 80 mph.

OK, a bit petty but telstarbox replied to OP's question as to whether giving the ticket to someone else is possible. Of course it's possible - but it's not allowed unless the ticket were bought on their behalf originally.

Practically speaking, giving it to a friend or family member - for whom it could well have been legitimately bought originally - is very unlikely to be a problem. Offering it openly on the internet or worse, trying to sell it, is what the rules aim to prohibit and is more likely to get you in trouble
 

AlterEgo

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Now, if you have made that contract / agreement, then surely as long as you can provide proof (say a email receipt), then since the physical ticket itself is not important (the contract / agreement is), then you should be allowed to travel on that basis?

No.

The COC states that only a ticket is evidence of authority to travel, or of any agreement between two parties. Any verbal or email agreement made at purchase is in accordance with the COC, which the customer accepts.
 

Oswyntail

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If the basis of the rule lies in the law of contract, surely it is possible to sub-contract the agreement. In fact, I would suggest that a ticket such as "EC and connections" does just that. So, again, I ask my original question: why is this the case (having had the "rules is rules" answer)?
 

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If the basis of the rule lies in the law of contract, surely it is possible to sub-contract the agreement. In fact, I would suggest that a ticket such as "EC and connections" does just that. So, again, I ask my original question: why is this the case (having had the "rules is rules" answer)?
You have NOT had a rules is the rules answer. You have had a clear statement of the reason why.

If you do not agree with it then this hardly is the basis for saying that it is wrong.

Clause 1 on the NCoC is quite clear and sets out the details of the contract agreement. If you disagree then you have the right not to proceed with that agreement. However there is nothing within the Railway NCoC that differs materially from National Express or other carriers for example, yet we do not see pages and pages of dispute and academic debate as to the validity of those ?
 

AlterEgo

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If the basis of the rule lies in the law of contract, surely it is possible to sub-contract the agreement.

No. There is no autmatic right to sub-contract! No idea where that little gem came from.

I have a contract with my employer.

I can't get my mate to do my job for me!
 

Oswyntail

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You have NOT had a rules is the rules answer. You have had a clear statement of the reason why.

If you do not agree with it then this hardly is the basis for saying that it is wrong.

...
The answer was (in summary) "the Conditions of Carriage say that is the case" - i.e. rules is rules. I do not say it is wrong, I just ask why they say that. No one has explained what damage to the company is incurred if a customer were to be allowed to transfer a ticket.
And, although sub-contracting, I agree, may be the wrong term (I did not say there was an automatic right), I can see little logical difference between a customer transferring his ticket (and the obligations imposed on him by the original contract) and the TOC transferring responsibility for part of the journey (and the obligations, such as ensuring the customer can complete the journey in some circumstances) to another TOC.
 

AlterEgo

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I can see little logical difference between a customer transferring his ticket (and the obligations imposed on him by the original contract) and the TOC transferring responsibility for part of the journey (and the obligations, such as ensuring the customer can complete the journey in some circumstances) to another TOC.

You can subcontract provision of a service, although that is not what happens when someone books on East Coast and the journey is with Chiltern. A ticket is sold and is evidence of a contract between the customer and the train companies whose services you have a right to use. You cannot arbitrarily change the person to whom the service is provided.

The council who is building a swimming pool, say, cannot simply tell the builder "Oh we don't want it any more, you'll have to build it for a private individual". That is not subcontracting (or fair!).
 

Oswyntail

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.... You cannot arbitrarily change the person to whom the service is provided.

The council who is building a swimming pool, say, cannot simply tell the builder "Oh we don't want it any more, you'll have to build it for a private individual". That is not subcontracting (or fair!).
Except that the journey is paid for in advance (unlike, I presume, the swimming pool), and the customer has effectively purchased a right to travel. Why cannot he reassign that right to a third party? What harm would it do to the service provider?
 

AlterEgo

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Except that the journey is paid for in advance (unlike, I presume, the swimming pool), and the customer has effectively purchased a right to travel. Why cannot he reassign that right to a third party? What harm would it do to the service provider?

It is rather an academic discussion as it is rarely enforced.

However it's important to remember that Joe Public selling a ticket to Joe Bloggs will not get him to agree to the COC and the terms of the ticket, which he has no right to enforce or give advice on.

There are also many people barred from certain TOCs for a variety of reasons!

I would not expect this discussion to surround airline tickets. Sadly, as OT says, everyone is terribly cynical about how the railways operate and what TOC's motives may or not be. An incredibly British thing, in my view. People expect the railway to be endlessly accommodating even where it is wholly impractical or undesirable.

There are many foibles with rail travel in this country, and with ticketing. This ain't one of them in my view.
 

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Except that the journey is paid for in advance (unlike, I presume, the swimming pool), and the customer has effectively purchased a right to travel. Why cannot he reassign that right to a third party? What harm would it do to the service provider?

Here is the answer to that question from a qualified legal advisor.

In English contract law, an assignment involves an 'assignor' transferring some or all of its rights under a contract to an 'assignee', so that the assignee is entitled to the corresponding performance directly from, and can enforce those rights against, the non-assigning party. An assignment in itself does not create a contract between the assignee and the non-assigning party nor does it make the assignee a party to the original contract.

It is not strictly correct to talk about the 'assignment of a contract'. In English law, the general principle is that the benefit of a contract (for example the right to receive payment or profits or the benefit of goods or services) may be assigned to a third party, unless the contact is a personal contract or the contract contains a restriction on assignment. The consent of the third party is not necessary to effect a valid assignment (provided there is no express prohibition on assignment or, for example, a requirement that consent is to be obtained).

Crucially, it is not possible to assign the burden of a contract, that is, the obligations (for example to perform certain services, deliver certain goods) under the contract, to a third party. This means that the burden of the contract remains with the assignor.

This is important because frequently, on or following the assignment of the benefit of a contract, the assignor will also transfer the assets used to fulfil the burden of the contract – employees, for instance, may be transferred to the assignee along with plant and equipment or intellectual property rights and know-how, etc. This leaves the assignor with a contractual liability that it is unable to satisfy. In such a situation the assignor should ensure that there is a contractual obligation imposed on the assignee to assist it in complying with any obligations falling on it under the original contract and ideally also an indemnity in respect of any liability so arising.
 

Oswyntail

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OK, that makes sense - but still does not answer the question I asked. Your quote for the most part seems to refer to the provider of the service assigning the obligations to another party to perform. It does not really cover the situation in hand, of the recipient of the service assigning the right to receive the service. I note there is an explicit statement that there may be restrictions when " the contract contains a restriction on assignment". Once again, there is no explanation as to why the Conditions contain such a restriction, only that it is legal.
 

DaveNewcastle

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. . . . there is no explanation as to why the Conditions contain such a restriction . . . .
To understand and to answer that question, it will help greatly to appreciate the culture of the UK in the mid 19th Century. That may not be easy for those of us who are not historians of the age (and I sadly, am not one).
But we do know that in those years it was common for business relations between people to take a very different form from the 'consumer - supplier' relations we find today, with their strong underpinning in consumer legislation and requirements for consistency, conformity with standards and accountability.
In those days, I'm sure many 'ordinary people' (Third Class passengers) would be grateful for the opportunity to buy anything at all, would not expect a consistent price, would be deferrent towards any Officer of a Railway Company and would not be surprised to find themselves being refused travel. At the same time, those in the fortunate classes (First Class passengers) would be dismissive towards many people 'in service' and would expect many little services to be performed for them.

I'm sure my description is poor, but in that context of clearly distinguished Class differentials, it might become easier to imagine why one person's ticket might not freely be passed to another - imagine the tensions in either class of carriage if a person of the 'wrong' class sat down.
I doubt this scenario provides the historical reason you are looking for, but perhaps it helps you to look at the social culture that applied, and which we've largely since abandoned?
I'd be interersted too. It is odd that so much in Railway life still operates on such historical principles (despite the introduction of advanced signalling and data gathering).
 
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Old Timer

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OK, that makes sense - but still does not answer the question I asked. Your quote for the most part seems to refer to the provider of the service assigning the obligations to another party to perform. It does not really cover the situation in hand, of the recipient of the service assigning the right to receive the service. I note there is an explicit statement that there may be restrictions when " the contract contains a restriction on assignment". Once again, there is no explanation as to why the Conditions contain such a restriction, only that it is legal.
The guidance covers both parties, the assignor being the person doing the transfer, and can be either party.
 
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