South Wales 'Metro': could it be improved further, and has devolution helped or hindered the project?

[Tomos y Tanc]

I do agree with this point in general, but I find the idea a bit ridiculous that SWMetro should never have happened because DfT (read: HMT) were going to electrify all the commuter lines fully. They would have cancelled it and done nothing but spew a few million up the wall paying planners, then designers, possibly even construction contractors to ready themselves on site just to then lose faith at the last moment and waste all that preparation. We didn't actually know back in the early 2010s just how much electrification Westminster was going to promise and then not deliver, so with hindsight, it was the right decision to let the Welsh Government carry out a scheme.

Added to which, fans of continual electrification have yet to explain how it could be carried out without severing the road links of numerous communities for long periods of time.

 

[Christian Schm]

What is "the South Wales Metro"?

https://www.iwa.wales/wp-content/media/2011/02/iwa-metroreport.pdf

This is the South Wales Metro. For sure, there have been previous ideas, and Mark has acknowledged lots of others. But it was this report that was explicitly acknowledged by the Welsh government and Senedd when they decided to adopt the SWM as government policy.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2025 ==

I guess this ship has sailed but I still think the Treherbert line has too many stations when compared to the Aberdare and Merthyr lines. Given the linear nature of Rhondda Fawr, the train is essentially duplicating bus services which are better suited for short journeys between valley towns.

Umm, no, that’s really a difference between a proper Metro (which has lots of stations, and thus serves many markets, and beats buses on any competing route because its frequent is good enough) and a suburban rail service (which often has few stations near its terminal).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Nov 2025 ==

They're not doing too well on that so far. Passengers between Brecon and Cardiff use to be able to get the T4 all the way. Since TfW's latest changes they've had to change to the X4 at Merthyr bus station or walk to the railway station as the T4 doesn't go there. I don't think there are any through fares either.

Well there’s really of supporting buses all the way into Cardiff now that the trains service is no longer slower and has worse vehicles.

And since TfW have taken over management of Traws bus routes they have set up lots of through tickets - just put Cardiff and Brecon in the TfW app and you’ll see.

The bus station in Merthyr has also been moved much closer to the railway station. Though that was before TfW came along, and was my idea.

 

[Envoy]

Please can anybody wishing to discuss the bus situation - such as the T4 route through eastern Wales to/from Newtown - start a new thread in the Buses section.

It has just been announced that Canadian airline Westjet are from May going to have flights between Toronto and Cardiff. I really hope that TFW will get the Metro service on the Vale Coast Line Via Rhoose (for short bus link to Airport) up and running to every 30 minutes. This would be a golden opportunity to help the airport entice people from N America not only to southern Wales but also the south-west and the Gloucester / Bristol - Bath areas and thus cut out London airports.

Is WestJet About To Announce Flights To These 6 European Cities?

They are Cardiff, Copenhagen, Glasgow, Lisbon, Madrid, and Ponta Delgada.

simpleflying.com

"WestJet will provide Cardiff's sole long-haul operation, with passengers obviously able to connect to multiple cities in Canada and the US. It'll appeal to people flying to/from South Wales and the closer parts of England."

 

[WelshBluebird]

I guess this ship has sailed but I still think the Treherbert line has too many stations when compared to the Aberdare and Merthyr lines. Given the linear nature of Rhondda Fawr, the train is essentially duplicating bus services which are better suited for short journeys between valley towns.

Id actually argue the opposite. The relatively concentrated nature of the valleys villages and towns and how close they are to their railway stations, combined with the poor road network (heavily congested with most main routes being residential with parked cars etc) means these areas are absolutely perfect for rail travel to provide these kind of short distance journeys.

Surely a lot of travel will be from these stations into Cardiff, not between them?
Having to get a bus then change onto a train to get to Cardiff isn't likely to get many people out of cars.

Its both. Certainly when I'm back at my parents I'll think of jumping on a train for the 2 minute journey from Ton Pentre to Treorchy instead of getting the slower and more expensive (for a return) bus.

 

[Cardiff123]

It has just been announced that Canadian airline Westjet are from May going to have flights between Toronto and Cardiff. I really hope that TFW will get the Metro service on the Vale Coast Line Via Rhoose (for short bus link to Airport) up and running to every 30 minutes. This would be a golden opportunity to help the airport entice people from N America not only to southern Wales but also the south-west and the Gloucester / Bristol - Bath areas and thus cut out London airports.

Is WestJet About To Announce Flights To These 6 European Cities?

They are Cardiff, Copenhagen, Glasgow, Lisbon, Madrid, and Ponta Delgada.

simpleflying.com

TfW's record on the VoG line has shown it's not a priority for them.
Hourly 2-car 150s (and every 2 hours on Sundays) are still likely to be the norm on the VoG line next Spring/Summer when those flights start.

 

[Doveymain158]

TfW's record on the VoG line has shown it's not a priority for them.
Hourly 2-car 150s (and every 2 hours on Sundays) are still likely to be the norm on the VoG line next Spring/Summer when those flights start.

They need to push NR for doubling the turn outs at Bridgend on to the VOG from a single lead to double by remodelling the Junction. Suprised it wasn’t done when Port Talbot resignalling phase 1 was done years ago.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

One WestJet flight a day (3 days a week?) isn't going to radically change demand for the rail service.
I haven't seen the flight times but they are likely to be early morning arrival and late morning departure at Cardiff.
Aren't TUI also going to start some long-haul flights from Cardiff next May?

These WestJet flights are with aircraft diverted from the US to Europe as Canadians are boycotting the US, particularly for leisure flights.
They will also be using B737 MAX single-aisle aircraft, which wouldn't be my preference for an 8-hour flight.

 

[Envoy]

TfW's record on the VoG line has shown it's not a priority for them.
Hourly 2-car 150s (and every 2 hours on Sundays) are still likely to be the norm on the VoG line next Spring/Summer when those flights start.

Well, if that’s the case, the passengers using public transport can always use the hourly bus service that takes 1 hour 20 minutes to reach Cardiff city centre via a circuitous route.

I really can’t understand why the Welsh Government / TFW have not given this line priority for increasing services being as it is the most viable way to reach the airport from both Cardiff and west Wales (via a change at Bridgend).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2025 ==

One WestJet flight a day (3 days a week?) isn't going to radically change demand for the rail service.
I haven't seen the flight times but they are likely to be early morning arrival and late morning departure at Cardiff.
Aren't TUI also going to start some long-haul flights from Cardiff next May?

These WestJet flights are with aircraft diverted from the US to Europe as Canadians are boycotting the US, particularly for leisure flights.
They will also be using B737 MAX single-aisle aircraft, which wouldn't be my preference for an 8-hour flight.

Plenty of people who live in Rhoose and Llantwit Major appear to be using the trains on this line. At Rhoose station I have seen lots people with cases making the transfer to/from the shuttle buses to the airport terminal 2 miles away. This line also forms a short cut between Barry and west Wales / Swansea thus avoiding the longer route via Cardiff.

The odds of having a window seat are greater in a single aisle aircraft. Many people will welcome not having to drag up to London to make a trans-Atlantic flight. Landing at Cardiff is also going to be cheaper - hence lower fares.

 

[stevieinselby]

I guess this ship has sailed, but I still think the Treherbert line has too many stations when compared to the Aberdare and Merthyr lines. Given the linear nature of Rhondda Fawr, the train is essentially duplicating bus services, which are better suited for short journeys between valley towns.

Only about 20% of journeys from stations on the Treherbert branch are to other stations on the same branch – 80% are to Pontypridd and beyond. The very densely populated but tightly confined corridor means that the train can very effectively serve passengers for Cardiff as well as local short-hoppers, and the new trains should be able to reduce the impact of all those stops and speed up journeys from the outer reaches of the line.

I pondered this before. There is some discontinuous electrification and some new rolling stock. I fail to see how this is as amazing as the Metro cheerleaders say it is.

Doubling of frequency to give a train every 15 minutes on all the main branches is a pretty major improvement. Thirty years ago, it was only Treherbert that had even a half-hourly service regularly, with Aberdare and Merthyr only being hourly for most of the day, and Rhymney was only hourly until very recently.

I got the name of the line wrong. My point still stands: a tram-train is a downgrade from a FLIRT.

But the FLIRTs have only been a temporary stop-gap measure, and they were only used at all because of the failure of the 769 Flex units to act as a slightly longer-term stop-gap measure.
For decades, passengers have had Pacers, and 150 Sprinters if they were lucky, and that is what the new units should be compared to ... and in most regards they will be a clear upgrade.

 

[Caaardiff]

One WestJet flight a day (3 days a week?) isn't going to radically change demand for the rail service.
I haven't seen the flight times but they are likely to be early morning arrival and late morning departure at Cardiff.
Aren't TUI also going to start some long-haul flights from Cardiff next May?

These WestJet flights are with aircraft diverted from the US to Europe as Canadians are boycotting the US, particularly for leisure flights.
They will also be using B737 MAX single-aisle aircraft, which wouldn't be my preference for an 8-hour flight.

4 days a week.
Landing in Cardiff at 1015, departing to Toronto at 1135.

From Cardiff Central, arriving 2-3 hours before departure there's the 0739 and 0839 from Cardiff Central with 45 min journey time - Station to Airport.
From Swansea, arriving 2-3 hour before departure there's the 0654 and 0752 from Swansea, with journey time of 1hr30, changing at Bridgend with a 15 min connection.

On return there's an 1135 bus from Cardiff Airport, which allows time to clear immigration and baggage.
To Swansea the journey time is just under 2 hours, because of a 30 min wait at Rhoose, and 22 min connection at Bridgend. Not ideal timings.
To Cardiff the journey time is just over 1 hour, with a 22 min wait at Rhoose.

Not sure if the timings have changed but have used this in the past and never had such a long wait for a train. 10-15 mins should be sufficient surely?

 

[Cardiff123]

The Welsh Government says Transport for Wales will build new stations on the South Wales main line, which is not devolved. It urges its UK counterpart to bring forward funding, already allocated so TfW retains skills from the Core Valley Lines modernisation, now nearing completion.

You can understand why TfW want to build these stations, it's been 6 years since the Burns report recommending the new stations between Cardiff & Severen Tunnel Junction, and so far, nothing has happened. Welsh Government argued to get the Core Valleys Lines devolved to TfW from Network Rail for this very reason - when left to NR & UK Government, major rail infrastructure upgrades in Wales (beyond major renewals) simply never happen.

‘A network of alternatives’ to the M4 relief road? – Burns Commission publishes its final recommendations

The South East Wales Transport Commission, chaired by Lord Burns, has published its final recommendations report. The Commission, set up in response to the First Minister’s decision not to proceed with the M4 relief road, was tasked with making recommendations on a “suite of alternative...

research.senedd.wales

The Welsh Government has long called for devolution of rail infrastructure. In September 2019 it responded to the UK Government’s ‘root and branch’ rail review – the Williams Review - by publishing ‘A railway for Wales: the case for devolution’. More recently, it has also called for the UK Government’s ‘Union Connectivity Review’ to consider the devolution of rail infrastructure powers.

The Commission acknowledges its proposals are ambitious, and it could be said that none are more so than its suggestion of developing six new rail stations at Newport Road, Cardiff Parkway, Newport West, Newport East, Llanwern and Magor...

 

[oglord]

when left to NR & UK Government, major rail infrastructure upgrades in Wales (beyond major renewals) simply never happen.

Except mainline electrification of course!

 

[cloakanddagger]

Except mainline electrification of course!

Given the fact mainline electrification was meant to go as far as Swansea and only reached Cardiff, even that is doing some pretty heavy lifting.

 

[oglord]

Given the fact mainline electrification was meant to go as far as Swansea and only reached Cardiff, even that is doing some pretty heavy lifting.

One could also argue that the Valley Lines electrification was meant to be completed in full, not el-cheapo discontinuous which causes all sorts of operational issues.

 

[cloakanddagger]

One could also argue that the Valley Lines electrification was meant to be completed in full, not el-cheapo discontinuous which causes all sorts of operational issues.

My understanding is that the CVL could never be fully electrified. There are listed structures on the routes that cannot be altered like the Caerphilly Tunnel, and there are neighbouring Cardiff University buildings that contain extremely sensitive equipment that would be negatively affected by the installation of OHLE through the stretch of line beyond Cathays station.
Having said that, there are some sections of track without OHLE that should be covered in future, such as the VOG line.

 

[oglord]

My understanding is that the CVL could never be fully electrified. There are listed structures on the routes that cannot be altered like the Caerphilly Tunnel, and there are neighbouring Cardiff University buildings that contain extremely sensitive equipment that would be negatively affected by the installation of OHLE through the stretch of line beyond Cathays station.
Having said that, there are some sections of track without OHLE that should be covered in future, such as the VOG line.

Well indeed. They *could* be electrified but it would cost a lot of money, just like the gold-plated mainline electrification did. That would then cause the whole project to run out of money and be cut back, just like the mainline electrification did. The point is that no matter who does electrification it always ends up either very expensive, or value engineered.

 

[AdamWW]

My understanding is that the CVL could never be fully electrified. There are listed structures on the routes that cannot be altered like the Caerphilly Tunnel, and there are neighbouring Cardiff University buildings that contain extremely sensitive equipment that would be negatively affected by the installation of OHLE through the stretch of line beyond Cathays station.

And yet at one point "proper" electrification was being seriously considered, wasn't it?

I haven't seen the suggestion before that Caerphilly tunnel is legally unelectrifiable, just that it would a rather expensive undertaking.

And I find it difficult to believe that if full electrification were being planned the University would be able to stop it.

I think the Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands did have a hand in delaying a tram extension to and through the campus on interference grounds, but that's a bit different.
(The problem was apparently solved by the physics department figuring out a way of doing the wiring to minimise electromagnetic interference, though what works on a relatively low voltage DC tramway might not be so suited to 25 kV trains).

 

[edwin_m]

And yet at one point "proper" electrification was being seriously considered, wasn't it?

I haven't seen the suggestion before that Caerphilly tunnel is legally unelectrifiable, just that it would a rather expensive undertaking.

And I find it difficult to believe that if full electrification were being planned the University would be able to stop it.

I think the Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands did have a hand in delaying a tram extension to and through the campus on interference grounds, but that's a bit different.
(The problem was apparently solved by the physics department figuring out a way of doing the wiring to minimise electromagnetic interference, though what works on a relatively low voltage DC tramway might not be so suited to 25 kV trains).

One solution might have been to do something like the Tyne and Wear Metro, using a vehicle design with a lower roof so an overhead line could be fitted under historic bridges and tunnels. However, this would have been incompatible with the remaining freight service (which disappeared in between designing Metro and implemented it) and also with engineering trains.

There's a bit of Metrolink in Trafford Park that had to have special measures against electromagnetic emissions, as a nearby business did something with sensitive equipment. As far as I recall it involved providing a buried positive feed near the rails with multiple feeders to the overhead line (it may even have had insulators) to encourage the supply current to use it. This reduces the size of the inductive loop compared to current going out through the OLE and back through the rails.

 

[MikePJ]

One big consideration (according to a TfW official interview that I saw a while back) was that closing bridges in some of the Valleys communities in order to raise them for overhead line clearance would have been incredibly disruptive - in some cases there weren't a lot of options in terms of diversionary routes.