Open returns and network railcard on FCC

[zero]

At the start of 2012 I need to stay in Leagrave (LEA) during the week, and would return to West Hampstead (WHP) on weekends. I was looking for open returns WHP-LEA or LEA-WHP but they don't seem to be available. Does anyone know why?

I can get an open return from LEA-KGX or KGX-LEA. Can I break my journey at WHP? If I left LEA on Friday evening, can I stay at home overnight and then use the tickets to go to central London on Saturday, then go to back Leagrave on Sunday - or does the travel need to be on the same day?

With the network railcard KGX-LEA open return is £14.20, I believe I can get discounted tickets for up to 3 other adults as well. Now if someone wanted to travel from WHP to Luton with me, can we break the journey at Luton, and (for RPI purposes) would I need to exit the barriers and then enter again to continue to LEA? How about in the other direction?

Thanks.

PS. does anyone know what the fares will be in 2012?

 

[yorkie]

Firstly, if you can use the full station name initially, and then the code in brackets, that would be great. After that, you can of course use the 3-letter CRS code.

Secondly, the ticket type "Open" was renamed "Anytime" (without the Day suffix) in late 2008, the code SOS/SOR was retained. They are generally not available for relatively short flows and many flows wholly within the 'Network' (former Network SouthEast) Area also lack Anytime Return fares (exceptions for airports are not uncommon).

Thirdly, Break of journey is permitted on Anytime returns.

And finally, the fares for 2012 will be available in late 2011, and on most routes they will be horrific and shocking, I fear as the rate of increase is around 8% in line with Government policy which is to penalise rail customers heavily.

 

[causton]

Break of Journey is fine, if you are getting the Kings Cross (or rather, St Pancakes) - Leagrave SVR (Off-Peak return) - this is what the break of journey section says regarding staying overnight:

BREAK OF JOURNEY

Break of journey is allowed on the outward portion of Off-Peak tickets UNLESS OTHERWISE INDICATED BY A RESTRICTION SHOWN AGAINST THE TICKET'S VALIDITY CODE, and in all cases on the return portion of Off-Peak return tickets.
Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket. Where a passenger wishes to stop overnight or the journey cannot be completed within one day, break of journey for an overnight stay is allowed. Where a journey does continue into the next day, travel must resume before 1200 and any relevant time restrictions apply. No further break of journey is allowed except for the purpose of changing trains. Please note that break
of_journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed_in the ticket restrictions.
Return portions of Off-Peak Return tickets are valid for travel until 0230 on the day following the last day of validity (i.e. one calendar
month from outward journey). If a passenger is_still travelling at 0230, they may stay on the train to complete that part of the journey but no further break of journey is allowed and all travel must be completed by 1200.

(sorry for the bad formatting, that's ATOS for you!)

 

[zero]

Firstly, if you can use the full station name initially, and then the code in brackets, that would be great. After that, you can of course use the 3-letter CRS code.

I did use the full names... but have edited the post to make it clearer, and I thought most people would know KGX. Will remember for future posts.

Anyway, oops, of course it is St Pancras not Kings Cross. My colleague is assigned to this journey for the next few months and attempted to get one of these today, and was told at the ticket office that "open returns" are only available from Kings Cross, which I just entered into redspottedhanky without thinking. And all the websites still call them "open returns"..

Sorry, not too familiar with the ticket types and abbreviations. So SVR is called an Off Peak Return, which is also an Anytime? Are there Anytime Peak Returns not for same day travel?

If I have the SVR ticket to St Pancras but alighted at WHP and didn't complete the journey, is that accepted, frowned upon or breaking the terms? Are the barriers at all intermediate stations programmed to let people holding Anytime tickets through? I believe there will be barriers at West Hampstead by the time I need to travel.

 

[wintonian]

The new 'simple' structure for ticket names is:

SVR = off peak return - off peak restrictions (these very), return within 1 month
CDR = off peak day return - off peak restrictions (these very), return same day
SOR = anytime return - no time restrictions, return within 1 month
SDR = anytime day return - no time restrictions, return same day
SOS = anytime single - no time restrictions
CDS = off peak single - off peak restrictions (these very)
SSR = super off peak return - 'super off peak' restrictions (these very and are more restrictive than 'off peak'), return within 1 month
SSS = super off peak single - 'super off peak' restrictions (these very and are more restrictive than 'off peak')

As you can see all very simple.

Most SVR's allow break of journey in both directions and all allow break of journey on the return.

 

[causton]

The new 'simple' structure for ticket names is:

SVR = off peak return - off peak restrictions (these very), return within 1 month
CDR = off peak day return - off peak restrictions (these very), return same day
SOR = anytime return - no time restrictions, return within 1 month
SDR = anytime day return - no time restrictions, return same day
SOS = anytime single - no time restrictions
CDS = off peak single - off peak restrictions (these very)
SSR = super saver return - 'super off peak' restrictions (these very and are more restrictive than 'off peak'), return within 1 month
SSS = super saver single - 'super off peak' restrictions (these very and are more restrictive than 'off peak')

As you can see all very simple.

Most SVR's allow break of journey in both directions and all allow break of journey on the return.

Actually, in FCC territory, the ticket code for a Super Off-peak return (basically, weekends only) is CBA, and a single CBB!
(at least, it is on the GN route, I've tried to look up stations on the TL side and my Avantix is screwed - it only shows the £5 FSP fare D: )
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If I have the SVR ticket to St Pancras but alighted at WHP and didn't complete the journey, is that accepted, frowned upon or breaking the terms? Are the barriers at all intermediate stations programmed to let people holding Anytime tickets through? I believe there will be barriers at West Hampstead by the time I need to travel.

I'm sure it's accepted (the program I use to check has just broken so I can't check!). Barriers will probably not let you through, you will have to be let through manually - depends how they are set up. Leagrave - London Terminals seems a common journey so it will probably be programmed in at the intermediate stations, as FCC programmed a Brookmans Park - Highbury and Islington off-peak return to open the barriers at Potters Bar - the only way to find out is the hard way!

 

[wintonian]

Actually, in FCC territory, the ticket code for a Super Off-peak return (basically, weekends only) is CBA, and a single CBB!
(at least, it is on the GN route, I've tried to look up stations on the TL side and my Avantix is screwed - it only shows the £5 FSP fare D: )

Darn!

Thats why I left out SCO (SWT's super off peak day return) for example, I forgot this can also apply to super off peak returns.

Still I think the OP should be able to get the jist of it.

 

[zero]

Still I think the OP should be able to get the jist of it.

Yeah, but perhaps a full list should be made into a sticky post or something?

(the program I use to check has just broken so I can't check!)

Are you talking about restriction codes? How can I get the actual code to look it up properly instead of some website's interpretation of it?

 

[wintonian]

Yeah, but perhaps a full list should be made into a sticky post or something?

Possibly but then I suspect we would need to put up a nearly complete guide to ticketing which although might be possible to simplify it would be quite a long read.

Are you talking about restriction codes? How can I get the actual code to look it up properly instead of some website's interpretation of it?

Here but you will need the atual code first.

Otherwise the only way for the public to get hold of the fares, restriction codes and restrictions is by buying a copy of Avantix.

 

[bb21]

Sorry, not too familiar with the ticket types and abbreviations. So SVR is called an Off Peak Return, which is also an Anytime? Are there Anytime Peak Returns not for same day travel?

I don't understand this. Off-Peak Single/Return fares might have time restrictions specific to the ticket, which is detailed in the full restriction text, referenced through restriction codes.

Some Off-Peak fares have nominal restrictions such as those with restriction codes 2T and 8E. Some other Off-Peak fares might not have any restriction applied time-wise, such as those with restriction codes 4C and 8A.

Anytime fares allow travel at any time without time or Break of Journey restriction.

If I have the SVR ticket to St Pancras but alighted at WHP and didn't complete the journey, is that accepted, frowned upon or breaking the terms? Are the barriers at all intermediate stations programmed to let people holding Anytime tickets through? I believe there will be barriers at West Hampstead by the time I need to travel.

A ticket from Leagrave to central London Terminals will be issued as Leagrave - London Thameslink, allowing you to travel to a station as far on the Thameslink route as Elephant & Castle.

An SVR costs £21.50 and has no Break of Journey restriction. It is legitimate to break the journey at West Hampstead Thameslink station and it is irrelevant whether it is frowned upon or not. The ticket gates might not be programmed to accept a ticket to a different destination, in which case you will need to show it at the manual gate to the attendant to be allowed out.

Yeah, but perhaps a full list should be made into a sticky post or something?

It won't be possible. There are literally thousands of ticket codes in use, most of which being for Advance tickets.

SSS/SSR are the old "Supersaver Single/Return" which were then renamed "Super Off-Peak Single/Return" at simplification.

OPS/OPR and CBB/CBA plus a few others have been added post-simplification and are now also called "Super Off-Peak (Day) Single/Return".

I'm sure over a period of time you will be able to remember the most common ones.

 

[bnm]

The new 'simple' structure for ticket names is:

SVR = off peak return - off peak restrictions (these very), return within 1 month
CDR = off peak day return - off peak restrictions (these very), return same day
SOR = anytime return - no time restrictions, return within 1 month
SDR = anytime day return - no time restrictions, return same day
SOS = anytime single - no time restrictions
CDS = off peak single - off peak restrictions (these very)
SSR = super saver return - 'super off peak' restrictions (these very and are more restrictive than 'off peak'), return within 1 month
SSS = super saver single - 'super off peak' restrictions (these very and are more restrictive than 'off peak')

Close, but no cigar.

 

[wintonian]

Close, but no cigar.

But that’s what it used to be isn't it?

I was trying to refer to the current names.

 

[bnm]

Ah... but you stated SSS/SSR = super saver single/return in your list of 'new' names.

That's simplification for you. Catches the best of us out sometimes. I asked a guard for a cheap day return yesterday.....

 

[wintonian]

Ah... but you stated SSS/SSR = super saver single/return in your list of 'new' names.

That's simplification for you. Catches the best of us out sometimes. I asked a guard for a cheap day return yesterday.....

No I didn't look again.

I always ask for cheap day returns - it's rare that anyone ever points out that there not called that anymore.

 

[bnm]

You said:

SSR = super saver return.
SSS = super saver single.

With both you then mentioned 'super off peak' restrictions admittedly, but that doesn't mean you got your 'equals' right

 

[wintonian]

You said:

SSR = super saver return.
SSS = super saver single.

With both you then mentioned 'super off peak' restrictions admittedly, but that doesn't mean you got your 'equals' right

Yeh I know thanks for pointing it out.

In my last post I was referring to the fact that I have now edited it to reflect that hence the:

 

[bnm]

My apologies. Sleepy eyes and no contacts in (but I can be pedantic 24/7 ). Didn't register the 'razz' smiley.

 

[Mike395]

Actually, in FCC territory, the ticket code for a Super Off-peak return (basically, weekends only) is CBA, and a single CBB!
(at least, it is on the GN route, I've tried to look up stations on the TL side and my Avantix is screwed - it only shows the £5 FSP fare D: )

Off-topic, but if using Avantix to check fares on the Thameslink route into London, you need to use 'LONDON THAMESLNK' as the destination

 

[island]

SSS/SSR are the old "Supersaver Single/Return" which were then renamed "Super Off-Peak Single/Return" at simplification.

OPS/OPR and CBB/CBA plus a few others have been added post-simplification and are now also called "Super Off-Peak Single/Return".

I'm sure over a period of time you will be able to remember the most common ones.

CBB/CBA are Super Off-Peak Day Returns actually (must return same day). OPS/OPR are Super Off-Peak Returns (return valid 1 month).

Off-topic, but if using Avantix to check fares on the Thameslink route into London, you need to use 'LONDON THAMESLNK' as the destination

Indeed. Or 4452, which is one of the small handful of NLCs I remember (the others being 1072, 3667, H584, and a few of the station groups starting with 04).

 

[bb21]

CBB/CBA are Super Off-Peak Day Returns actually (must return same day). OPS/OPR are Super Off-Peak Returns (return valid 1 month).

Yes, I should have added the (Day) part. Now corrected.

 

[tannedfrog]

No barriers at West hampstead thameslink

 

[LexyBoy]

With the network railcard KGX-LEA open return is £14.20, I believe I can get discounted tickets for up to 3 other adults as well. Now if someone wanted to travel from WHP to Luton with me, can we break the journey at Luton, and (for RPI purposes) would I need to exit the barriers and then enter again to continue to LEA? How about in the other direction?

The Railcard gives a discount on a group of up to 4 adults and 4 children. There is no requirement for the tickets to be the same or for the number in the group to be the same throughout the journey. From the T&Cs:

8) Additional accompanying passengers for whom discounted tickets are purchased must travel with the Railcard holder throughout the journey.

I don't know how 'journey' is defined here, but to be safe I'd recommend accompanying them to the gateline (no need to exit yourself). If your companion is only travelling West Hampstead - Luton, it would be cheaper to buy them a discounted ticket for this journey only (this would open the barrier, unless they had been programmed to reject Railcard tickets).

(I'm reading the condition as meaning they cannot travel without the Railcard holder, rather than forcing them to complete the same journey as the Railcard holder, which I don't think is the intended meaning. Buying a ticket to Luton rather than Leagrave for the extra passenger would avoid this potential interpretation)

 

[district]

So to confirm;

SVR = off peak return - off peak restrictions, return within 1 month. (Open Return)
CDR = off peak day return - off peak restrictions, return same day.
SOR = anytime return - no time restrictions, return within 1 month. (Open Return)
SDR = anytime day return - no time restrictions, return same day.
SOS = anytime single - no time restrictions.
CDS = off peak single - off peak restrictions.
SSR = super off peak return - 'super off peak' restrictions, return within 1 month. (Open Return)
SSS = super off peak single - 'super off peak' restrictions.
CBA = FCC GN super off peak return - 'super off peak' restrictions, return same day.
CBB = FCC GN super off peak single - 'super off peak' restrictions.
SCO = SWT super off peak return - 'super off peak' restrictions, return within 1 month. (Open Return)
SVR offers break of journey, and all returns offer a break of journey on the return portion.

 

[bb21]

I believe that NXEA and C2C use CBB and CBA as well, eg. Colchester - London Terminals, Grays - London Terminals, and they are Super Off-Peak Day tickets as island pointed out.

SCO is also a Super Off-Peak Day Return.

All Anytime tickets allow Break of Journey (BoJ). All (Super) Off-Peak tickets allow BoJ unless it is otherwise stipulated in the restriction text.
(Not all return portions allow BoJ, eg. OPR. It is only true that the return portion of all SVR permit BoJ.)

Also I wouldn't use the term "Open", which used to refer to what is now "Anytime" fares. "Flexible" is a better word for it.

 

[zero]

Thanks everyone for your replies, I've now realised that NR tickets are far more complicated than I thought! I generally only think about oyster, living in NW6.

No barriers at West hampstead thameslink

Yeah but expect there will be by the time the new station building opens.. I got the impression that they were going to seal off the current exit? I saw an artist's impression of the new station a few months ago, but now can only find http://www.londonreconnections.com/2009/west-hampstead-station-plans-approved/ which doesn't show things very clearly.

it would be cheaper to buy them a discounted ticket for this journey only (this would open the barrier, unless they had been programmed to reject Railcard tickets).

Min fare weekdays, so singles only discounted on weekends I believe? That was just a hypothetical example anyway, would probably be difficult to coordinate in real life. This is actually the person I was asking about in an earlier thread, who is going to Beds. uni.

So basically, if I don't want to cough up for Avantix, I have to ask here or at a ticket office for the actual restriction codes?

 

[island]

SVR offers break of journey, and all returns offer a break of journey on the return portion.

Not necessarily correct. SVRs are expressed as possibly prohibiting break of journey on the outbound portion, and a small number of LM-priced SVRs (code SK) along with some LM-priced OPRs (code LK) purport to prohibit break of journey on both portions. I expect yorkie will be along shortly to say that this is unenforceable; I have no opinion on the matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So basically, if I don't want to cough up for Avantix, I have to ask here or at a ticket office for the actual restriction codes?

No, you can get them from National Rail Enquiries, although it's a bit involved.

• Go to http://www.nationalrail.co.uk
• Specify your journey in the usual way
• Select the radio buttons corresponding to the ticket you want
• Towards the bottom of the screen you will see a blue box marked "Tickets", here you will see the exact ticket type in question. Click on the ticket type.
• This brings you to a big list of terms and conditions. Scroll all the way to the bottom and click "view the specific 'Validity Code' applicable to the journey plan that you have selected".