Which comes back to the origins of the line as a main line railway, not a railway to serve local communities. Ignoring service patterns, if I lived in Edenbridge, I'd be much more likely to use the Uckfield line station than the SE station - simply about walking distances.
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A Strood (Medway) to Reading (90miles) semi fast service would be well used if it could be implemented
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I live in the Medway towns and there really isn’t a good way of getting to Gatwick by public transport other than via London. Strood to Gatwick might help but would still involve a change at Strood for the majority of passengers. Starting at Rainham, sharing the Thameslink turn back, or starting at Sittingbourne would be much better with a reversal at Strood.
philosopher
Established Member
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When did these services end? Gatwick Airport has grown quite a bit in recent years, so what may have been carrying mostly fresh air 30 years may be well used now.
I've got a bit before 2010 as when the Redhill-Tonbridge pulled back in on itself. I'm still not convinced the case is that strong.
Ideally it would be avoided, but yes it's inevitable with the service provided, and Edenbridge especially, having a genuine option vs railheading.
I agree, I think this would be far better used. Strood could still have the stopper, and a regional service could run faster and reverse. Between the Medway conurbation and Maidstone, plus Tonbridge - it should be viable.
Well, quite. Some on this board would have it that the world has not changed since services were run and closed so therefore why try again - work patterns, travel patterns, flying patterns and cultures, incomes, demographics... all the same as the 70s and 80s!
No, I used the line in the Noughties, lived and worked in the area, and had family living in the area. The fundamentals have not changed, and "the roads are busy" is not necessarily a reliable marker for potential rail demand.
The railway was built as a main line, doesn't serve many of the settlements particularly well, and cuts across many of the main lines of communication in the area. Those are the fundamental issues, all of which undermined the ability of the enhanced service to make a serious difference. They are compounded by the layout at Redhill, and the capacity constraints that it causes.
When the service did run through to join Medway Valley with Tonbridge-Redhill, it was far from quick - a 12:50 from Three Bridges arrived at Maidstone West at 14:08. That working had to be scheduled across the main running lines at Redhill and Tonbridge, so ate into capacity there. I'd seriously question how attractive that would be against driving end to end, and even going via London (a single change) wouldn't be any slower.
This is precisely my point. 20 years ago, a train was slow and therefore not well used, so it is never worth trying again now we are in another era. Even with an airport with 10m more passengers, flying more frequently themselves (Gatwick airline/flight profiles) and more employees. Or population growth of several hundred thousand across Kent, Surrey, Sussex. Or where a 1 hour train ride can now be productive, or easier with kids, or less boring.
And with a different branding, stopping pattern, publicity... the main line straightness (and quietness) are really an asset, used well. etc etc etc - why explore anything?
And with a different branding, stopping pattern, publicity... the main line straightness (and quietness) are really an asset, used well. etc etc etc - why explore anything?
So how is this going to persuade people out of their cars, and to travel? Branding and marketing are great, but what actually is the product - and what's the differentiator?
You give the example of that hour long journey being better by train - but what's the catchment, and how does the 1 hour train journey fit with the previous car journey?
Class15
Established Member
This is already possible, no?
This is what we are discussing here (sort of, the Reading part notwithstanding!)
If you had a:
Three Bridges - Gatwick - Redhill - Edenbridge - Tonbridge - Maidstone West - Strood reverse - Medway stations hourly service (turn at Gillingham or Rainham)
I'm not doing brand or marketing strategy, now but the product and differentiator are the same - 1) direct Gatwick rail services where there were none and 2) semi-fast regional Kent connector with a lot of interchange potential along the way.
Not everyone drives or wants to pay to park at the airport. Three Bridges is for convenience but it adds the not-so-nice but somewhat populous town of Crawley, with various jobs located there, and more interchange.
brad465
Veteran Member
Three Bridges-Strood I think can be done, but the Strood reversal is quite difficult: only one platform permits it, and every train in both directions has to use it for this, while also being the up platform for TL and HS1 services. As long as a decent connection is possible at Strood, this is an easy cross-platform interchange.
There would need to be pointwork to allow reversal in P1 at Strood, and at Redhill potentially a bay platform on the east side (on what is currently car park land), that would allow an all-stations stopper from Tonbridge to continue running in addition without blocking up the main station and its crossovers.
In its final incarnation, the 2tph off-peak service on the Redhill to Tonbridge line prior to the service going hourly in December 2008, it didn't go to Medway and Strood but to Tunbridge Wells. Southern units operated Tunbridge Wells to Horsham. Southeastern units operated Tunbridge Wells to London Bridge. The evening service was Tonbridge to Three Bridges.
There is only a convenient cross platform connection from up TL & HS1 services onto the Medway Valley line. In the other direction it is up & over the footbridge or down through the underpass. Not encouraging for airport passengers with luggage.
I do remember seeing various versions of it on the NSE / regional big maps.
Tunbridge Wells by rail from Gatwick is of course a dog-leg to say the least, but I expect a good place to 'park' it. Arguably Tonbridge-Three Bridges should be the core service today. It's a shame how curtailed it is.
telstarbox
Established Member
Sorry this is pretty crayonista.
Maidstone and Medway have motorways which get you to Gatwick in an hour, or you can change trains at London Bridge (or Victoria).
From Tonbridge or Tunbridge Wells you can drive in the same time or less, or change at London Bridge multiple times per hour.
Gatwick has earlier and later flights than Heathrow - tomorrow there are 13 departing before 0600 - so the train wouldn't cater for these unless it was 24 hours.
Maidstone and Medway have motorways which get you to Gatwick in an hour, or you can change trains at London Bridge (or Victoria).
From Tonbridge or Tunbridge Wells you can drive in the same time or less, or change at London Bridge multiple times per hour.
Gatwick has earlier and later flights than Heathrow - tomorrow there are 13 departing before 0600 - so the train wouldn't cater for these unless it was 24 hours.
izvor
Member
I would still favour starting with a half-hourly Strood-Redhill incorporating the present service. The absence of anywhere of note between Tonbridge and Redhill* could be its strength, allowing 1tph to run non-stop, also between Maidstone and Paddock Wood. Maybe alternate the two, as is done either side of Guildford on the NDL, to equate end-to-end running times.
Yes extending to Rainham and/or Three Bridges would be ideal but this would involve additional rolling stock and operating costs, and other issues mentioned above. My plan has minimal additional costs, even doubling Redhill - Paddock Wood's crew costs would not be high as there is a lot of wasteful "on the cushions" travel either side of Tonbridge at present, due to the two TOCs involved. No (or minimal) additional rolling stock required.
This could then act as a springboard for future expansion depending on demand and travel patterns.
* there are large developments (contested of course) for near Tonbridge, Godstone and Nutfield, and Edenbridge is already expanding.
Yes extending to Rainham and/or Three Bridges would be ideal but this would involve additional rolling stock and operating costs, and other issues mentioned above. My plan has minimal additional costs, even doubling Redhill - Paddock Wood's crew costs would not be high as there is a lot of wasteful "on the cushions" travel either side of Tonbridge at present, due to the two TOCs involved. No (or minimal) additional rolling stock required.
This could then act as a springboard for future expansion depending on demand and travel patterns.
* there are large developments (contested of course) for near Tonbridge, Godstone and Nutfield, and Edenbridge is already expanding.
Arguably the parallel Tunbridge Wells-Forest Row-East Grinstead-Three Bridges line that closed to the south in 1967 would now have more intermediate and probably point to point demand for east-west travel than the Tonbridge-Redhill line. And it pointed in the right direction for Gatwick at Three Bridges.
Now there is a bus (291) roughly every hour that goes from Tunbridge Wells along this route to Crawley.
Now there is a bus (291) roughly every hour that goes from Tunbridge Wells along this route to Crawley.
I would not say so. The infrastructure exists and the service patterns have in recent history too. It’s not crayons (which tend to invent and extend rails!), it’s a threaded service of a few shorter ones, much as happens elsewhere.
Also that is a straw man re 0600 flights and it being a reason not to do it. A rail service to an airport does not have to service every flight. Nor are most people at 3am taking trains, let’s be real. Some might but many will get a cab or drive. That’s fine. It’s the minority of timings.
It may be noted that although the service from Tonbridge to Redhill only runs hourly through the day (with some shorter gaps in the peak hours), the first weekday service is at 0442 from Tonbridge, and the last one back leaves Redhill at 0028, catering (with connections) for early and late travel to and from Gatwick and other locations.
Farigiraf
Established Member
This is the northern Wealden district we're talking about. If Beeching hadn't closed it, there'd be an active campaign to rip the track up because it's bothering the neighbour's cat or the Saturday golf game, or something along those lines. One of the highest car ownership rates in the country, and those with ENCTS passes would continue to take the bus.
If there's one closed route in that area that'd be well used today, it's the Tunbridge Wells - Eridge connection combined with one of the routes down to Brighton (Uckfield-Lewes or Cuckoo line). There's quite likely a lot more demand on this corridor than there is for airport travel to Gatwick by public transport.
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ox_chap
Member
Always worth remembering that there is something different about airport passengers, who prefer fewer changes (usually because they have a lot of luggage). So joining up existing services could make sense for reaching Gatwick. I see this at Reading - people get on with lots of luggage, and are just relieved the train will get them to Gatwick, even knowing it takes well over an hour.
So with that thinking, suppose it started at Dartford. Network Rail planner gives average times from Dartford to Gatwick of 1 hour and 20 minutes, via London of course. But if instead you could sit on a through "Wealden Orbiter", no changes, and it took 1 hour and 30 minutes, I bet many would adopt the latter.
So with that thinking, suppose it started at Dartford. Network Rail planner gives average times from Dartford to Gatwick of 1 hour and 20 minutes, via London of course. But if instead you could sit on a through "Wealden Orbiter", no changes, and it took 1 hour and 30 minutes, I bet many would adopt the latter.
telstarbox
Established Member
True, but Reading is a bigger place and the road journey time is less competitive.