Clearing up Waste material after Maintenance and Renewals

[Straus]

I love how everything is always correct on the railway. Elsewhere piles of rubbish left around for decades would be called eyesores, on the railway they are deliberate and sensible though.

I don't think people are saying this - it's more understanding the why. Engineering overruns are both very disruptive to the customer and expensive to NR.

If you were to survey the customer base, I'd say the overwhelming response would be to choose waste piles before overruns.

 

[mmh]

I don't think people are saying this - it's more understanding the why. Engineering overruns are both very disruptive to the customer and expensive to NR.

If you were to survey the customer base, I'd say the overwhelming response would be to choose waste piles before overruns.

I disagree. This isn't the why. The why is an ingrained culture that it doesn't matter. Cost and time are simply excuses being used to defend that culture.

 

[Western Sunset]

Back in the day, there were neat little concrete ballast bins where fresh ballast was kept so that gangers could pack any sleepers on their stretch. Different times, different procedures... But also a different society mindset as to not caring/bothering about what the whole railway estate looks like.

 

[mmh]

Different times, different procedures... But also a different society mindset as to not caring/bothering about what the whole railway estate looks like.

Exactly, it will be mindset rather than a commercial choice. Most days I go past a walking route to a Network Rail depot's portakabins. Alongside the walking route is a discarded angle grinder disc, it's been there for at least 6 years. It will have been walked past thousands of times. It's not still there because of cost, but because it doesn't matter and I've not been told to pick it up.

Regardless of whether work is done in house or by contractors, the attitude is set by the railway. A contracting company will just work to the standards or lack of them in the 'business' they find themselves in.

 

[Lighteight123]

A lot of work is done by contractors, they don't want to underorder material becauase of the risk of non completion (and they're not paying anyway!) and there's no real incentive for them to take the material back out.

But there should be incentive. Under the AMP process, the site shouldn’t be handed back to the MDU until they are happy with the work. This includes removing all scrap material.

 

[The exile]

Basically what is needed is that every time there is a planned possession, an assessment needs to be done of all jobs in the affected section that require a possession and for them to be done - provided of course that the work that the possession is actually for doesn’t either render it impossible or itself get interfered with. Gutter clearance /painting on station canopies, de-vegetation work, rubbish (of all size) clearance etc

 

[Straus]

Basically what is needed is that every time there is a planned possession, an assessment needs to be done of all jobs in the affected section that require a possession and for them to be done - provided of course that the work that the possession is actually for doesn’t either render it impossible or itself get interfered with. Gutter clearance /painting on station canopies, de-vegetation work, rubbish (of all size) clearance etc

Yes, in an ideal world where funding is fluid. The reality is that capital schemes are inflexibly funded and planned a long way out.

There are likely many many efficiencies to be realised, but not simply unfortunately.

 

[The exile]

Yes, in an ideal world where funding is fluid. The reality is that capital schemes are inflexibly funded and planned a long way out.

There are likely many many efficiencies to be realised, but not simply unfortunately.

Every finance and treasury employee manager and decision maker should be required to submit a monthly example of where they have put “a stitch in time saves nine” into practice in that period. Not serious (or am I?)

 

[Skeletor]

In which case why can’t the contract include removing surplus materials and leaving the site tidy, with suitable sanctions if they fail to comply.

NR Scotland don’t accept handback if there’s scrap anywhere. A representative will walk the job with the contractors and will provide a list of things they’re unhappy with that need rectified before releasing the money.

 

[Route115?]

Back in the 80s our Divisional Civil Engineer set aside a day each month to clear the track side.

 

[Straus]

NR Scotland don’t accept handback if there’s scrap anywhere. A representative will walk the job with the contractors and will provide a list of things they’re unhappy with that need rectified before releasing the money.

Theres a load of rail and ballast sat at Dumbarton east since 2014

 

[Skeletor]

Theres a load of rail and ballast sat at Dumbarton east since 2014

Can only comment on my own experiences. Some of the reps are exceptionally fussy before accepting a site back which includes removing scrap which as you say could have been there for 12 years.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I recall going to a derailment of 2 brakevans (but not the 37 attached) on what is now a passenger line , then freight only - the crew shot off to Canton to get the BDV's and returned within an hour ! - whilst mulling over post rerailing as to what would happen - the PW "discovered !" some 60ft rail handily in the vegetation which they installed pretty quickly so the coal and more importantly the products of the Abercwmboi coal products plant could recommence the same day. Dodgy track anyway , held in place by something called "mill clips" - as you can imagine there was a "no tea or biscuits" interogation of the crew by the local senior Ops Manager.

 

[Horizon22]

I disagree. This isn't the why. The why is an ingrained culture that it doesn't matter. Cost and time are simply excuses being used to defend that culture.

Always love it when practical reasons are brushed off as apparent "excuses"!

Nobody is saying it is ideal, and could things be better? Probably. But people with knowledge are explaining why the situation is somewhat like it is and explaining some of the constraints.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 15:13 ==

But there should be incentive. Under the AMP process, the site shouldn’t be handed back to the MDU until they are happy with the work. This includes removing all scrap material.

How much longer would you like the possession to continue and passenger trains to be cancelled for as a result? We have enough overruns as it is. Being "happy with the work" doesn't really include removal of all scrap. I can appreciate if you think it should, but that would have other consequences.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Had a loaded 313 on the Abbey Line derailed as a result of some urchins discovering some discarded fishplates which they placed on the line "to see what might happen" - they were apprehended , charged and went through the law process - part of the latter involved them explaining why they did it , to the involved crew. Naturally some very firm words were had with the PW responsibe.

313001 was the victim , it seemed to personally affect it ("loss of confidence" ?) until it got a C6X overhaul.

 

[Carntyne]

Yes I am sure. It is not difficult to tell what has been left for renewal/maintenance to take place at a later date, and what has simply been abandoned. There is reference above to the ORR not being there to authorise the removal of waste/redundant material from Track work. Well who is? Because nothing is being done. Most here lament the fragmentation of the total railway and the unrecovered material at the end of a job is an indication of that. MDUs are responsible for a given section of the overall route, so who is co-ordinating above them? Yes it's Network Rail, but Network Rail are demonstrably not doing it - they will point to the MDUs and the MDUs will point straight back to them or to their subcontractors. It's a doom loop.. Hence I said that the next buck to be passed stops at the ORR because something below them is not working. No it shouldn't be their role but are GBR going to spend their time prioritising the state of our trackside rubbish dump?

What do you mean that NR point at the MDUs and the MDUs point at NR. They're the same thing.