National Express Coaches Discussion

[Titfield]

This is the issue NatEx are dealing with. Flix are rock bottom price and rock bottom service, and the group's profitability is helped by the operators taking partial revenue risk too. In an industry where price is basically the only thing that matters (if you can afford to pay more you go by train) it's an unbeatable model. And like Uber all the tourists already know it and probably already have the app etc (assuming it has one).

Trying to compete with it is like trying to compete with Ryanair directly, which almost nobody ever does. easyJet have certainly avoided going fully head to head for a very long time as they know they will lose.

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The problem is that people in the coach market aren't willing or able to pay extra, by and large, for the improved service. If they were they'd be going by train.

The only market for coach in a country with a highly developed rail network is the rock bottom budget one. GBR might yet mess that up with their pricing model and create such a market, but by and large off peak walk up fares are low enough (and stuff like WMT's Crewe service provides a lower tier) that rail fares are too close to NatEx's fares for the more premium market to choose coach.

Yes very well put indeed.

I use FlixBus and National Express for getting to Heathrow. Perhaps unusually it is not because of the price but when the rail air coach from Woking is factored in it takes longer by rail.

I have to say I don’t enjoy the coach journey but it is bearable for the length of journey I take.

 

[BULLSAREMAGIC]

Yes very well put indeed.

I use FlixBus and National Express for getting to Heathrow. Perhaps unusually it is not because of the price but when the rail air coach from Woking is factored in it takes longer by rail.

I have to say I don’t enjoy the coach journey but it is bearable for the length of journey I take.

Rail services from the East Midlands to London have been so unreliable and overcrowded (and expensive) that from personal expereience loadings on coach services have shown an increase especially from Nottingham and Leicester. If this increase continues when East Midlands Railway restore the full timetable and repair their new stock remains to be seen

 

[JonathanH]

The only market for coach in a country with a highly developed rail network is the rock bottom budget one. GBR might yet mess that up with their pricing model and create such a market, but by and large off peak walk up fares are low enough (and stuff like WMT's Crewe service provides a lower tier) that rail fares are too close to NatEx's fares for the more premium market to choose coach.

I think the railway is going to raise fares by following the LNER model, which might allow the coach operators to be more financially stable. GWR have certainly taken its advance fares up to close to the super-off-peak walk up price, which should allow National Express to make money on its Bristol / South Wales routes. It is noticable that their frequency is higher along the M4 than on other routes. However, the number of viable routes is fairly small.

 

[BuhSnarf]

think the railway is going to raise fares by following the LNER model, which might allow the coach operators to be more financially stable. GWR have certainly taken its advance fares up to close to the super-off-peak walk up price, which should allow National Express to make money on its Bristol / South Wales routes. It is noticable that their frequency is higher along the M4 than on other routes. However, the number of viable routes is fairly small.

But train operators would have to hike fares much higher for it to benefit the coach.

The train is already magnitudes higher than Flix/NX and people will still take the train.

For example just looking at on the day prices for Leicester to London:

I can get a Flixbus for this evening for £11.99, takes 2.5 hours. The maximum cost is £22.99 which is for in the next hour or so.
On the train the cheapest fair I can get for today is £59 with tickets rising up to £89 for a single for a one hour 20 minutes journey.

So the coach is already five times cheaper and people will still choose the train to have (marginally - it is EMR after all) more comfort and a shorter journey time. The train being preferable only increases the further the distance as the difference in time only gets higher as the route gets longer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the railway is going to raise fares by following the LNER model, which might allow the coach operators to be more financially stable.

It's possible, but if you look at the LNER fares they haven't actually hiked them *that* much, it's mostly just a loss of flexibility. They've even reduced the uplift to the 70 Minute Flex below £20 in most cases now. But you can't sell coaches on flexibility as their small number of seats don't really allow for that, aside from that Ember offer refunds very late on.

If they did it might re-create a more premium coach market like Ember in Scotland.

Indeed might electrification be a way for NX to differentiate, as then you can sell the environmental angle? I suppose if it's struggling financially that's not going to work though, it does feel like they've already entered a death spiral.

GWR have certainly taken its advance fares up to close to the super-off-peak walk up price, which should allow National Express to make money on its Bristol / South Wales routes. It is noticable that their frequency is higher along the M4 than on other routes. However, the number of viable routes is fairly small.

GWR Advances have been poor value for a very long time in my experience.

 

[gray1404]

Do we know how long the contact centre is going to stay in the UK for? I am going to need to make some amendments that cannot be done online over the next couple of months and I've always found their staff in Birmingham extremely pleasant to deal with.

The prolonged website maintenance which is still ongoing, and without prior notice is concerning. Any decent company would have posted in advance a notice that their website will be down for maintenance. Thus giving customers a chance to do self-service options beforehand.

I have noticed NX customer service responses to feedback have declined. I recently provided feedback about failed booked disability assistance. I framed it as feedback rather than a complaint. The reply I received was quite hostile. It was made clear that I would not be receiving a refund as I still travelled. They tried to turn it on me implying I should have made the driver aware and asked a whole list of questions. I gave a detailed account in my initial feedback however addressing most of those.

I didn't bother responding as there was no incentive for me to do so. I do not feel the advisor had any understanding of the importance of disability assistance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The prolonged website maintenance which is still ongoing, and without prior notice is concerning. Any decent company would have posted in advance a notice that their website will be down for maintenance. Thus giving customers a chance to do self-service options beforehand.

I still lean towards the idea of a cyberattack having taken place myself. I doubt it relates to separating NX Bus from NX Coach as they wouldn't use the same booking facilities as buses are run on a walk up basis.

The cost of resolving this will be a further nudge towards oblivion

Perhaps a shame the merger with Stagecoach didn't happen.

 

[nick291]

Perhaps a shame the merger with Stagecoach didn't happen.

Question is would megabus still be on the road in place of NatEx and vice versa if that happened as planned?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Question is would megabus still be on the road in place of NatEx and vice versa if that happened as planned?

As in would Stagecoach just have turned it into Megabus? Possible. But Megabus might have been better placed to compete with Flix.

 

[nick291]

As in would Stagecoach just have turned it into Megabus? Possible. But Megabus might have been better placed to compete with Flix.

True, I mean Flix didn't really come onto the scene until COVID hit.

 

[Titfield]

GWR Advances have been poor value for a very long time in my experience.

SWR seem to have removed the lower tiers of advance fares on the peak time services between London Waterloo and Weymouth.

STOP PRESS

Nexp have put up a replacement website https://www2.nationalexpress.com/en

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The higher fares dont seem to me to encourage travel by NExp.

 

[nick291]

The higher fares dont seem to me to encourage travel by NExp.

Probably wants you to transfer at Heathrow so NatEx know they can make a pretty penny.

 

[marshlinker]

But train operators would have to hike fares much higher for it to benefit the coach.

The train is already magnitudes higher than Flix/NX and people will still take the train.

For example just looking at on the day prices for Leicester to London:

I can get a Flixbus for this evening for £11.99, takes 2.5 hours. The maximum cost is £22.99 which is for in the next hour or so.
On the train the cheapest fair I can get for today is £59 with tickets rising up to £89 for a single for a one hour 20 minutes journey.

So the coach is already five times cheaper and people will still choose the train to have (marginally - it is EMR after all) more comfort and a shorter journey time. The train being preferable only increases the further the distance as the difference in time only gets higher as the route gets longer.

For me it depends how direct the competiting coach service is. For football trips up north I tend to use some stops as railheads (e.g Meadowhall, Manchester & Birmingham).
Coach up and rail back (when advances tend to be much cheaper) returns significant savings. For example end of the month Im going to Burnley from the kent Coast. It'll be a day return to London, National Express to Manchester, Northern to Burnley. Back is an advance to Euston via Preston then a HS supplement back to Ashford. Saves just over £40 over the best rail only trip.

 

[F Great Eastern]

SWR seem to have removed the lower tiers of advance fares on the peak time services between London Waterloo and Weymouth.

STOP PRESS

Nexp have put up a replacement website https://www2.nationalexpress.com/en

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View attachment 213507
The higher fares dont seem to me to encourage travel by NExp.

Looks like the international site looked before it had the functionality chopped down.

 

[gray1404]

I've just logged onto the revamped website into the my account area. When I go to my tickets I cannot see any of my existing bookings.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I've just logged onto the revamped website into the my account area. When I go to my tickets I cannot see any of my existing bookings.

Same.

They've clearly pivoted to the international site for everyone, the reasons as to why it makes you wonder.

 

[centraltrains]

Looks like the international site looked before it had the functionality chopped down.

It's a slightly customised version of Distribusion's generic booking site.

(It's the reason I left as I use to be on the team which built/looked after the old booking site, luckily left out of choice - (luckily that's public info as you can see Distribusion's URLs in the browser http request logs!))

Essentially no matter if you book flix or national express your booking through at least partly German developed systems!

 

[F Great Eastern]

It's a slightly customised version of Distribusion's generic booking site.

(It's the reason I left as I use to be on the team which built/looked after the old booking site, luckily left out of choice - (luckily that's public info as you can see Distribusion's URLs in the browser http request logs!))

Essentially no matter if you book flix or national express your booking through at least partly German developed systems!

Yeah, but that is pretty much what the international site was.

 

[Mikw]

I've just logged onto the revamped website into the my account area. When I go to my tickets I cannot see any of my existing bookings.

Same here. Luckily I have still got my email tickets but I'm not sure everyone will have. Always a bit worrying when you click on "my tickets" and there aren't existing bookings there.

I booked two tickets today using the new site. They HAVE appeared but only one has a QR code and both say 'two passengers" when there's only actually one.

Feel sorry for the driver, if others have the same as me, a few people might try and take another passenger they haven't actually paid for.....

 

[F Great Eastern]

Airport Bus Express also operating on the A1 today for National Express as well!

Another new vehicle never seen before operating on it too, that's 6 different vehicles operating NX services from Airport Bus Express now compared to only a couple a few weeks ago.

It does seem to look like they are taking on more and more work.

 

[Edvid]

Airport Bus Express also operating on the A1 today for National Express as well!

Another new vehicle never seen before operating on it too

If it's this one you'd be forgiven for thinking it was on the Green Line 757 instead!

When I take the coach to London on occasion that's my go-to but I recently used NX for a change as they're offering promo £2 singles on the A1/A2/A31 to Luton Airport only (LUTON2 code at the checkout phase); previously you had to book 14+ days in advance but that was reduced to 7+ days recently. Given what's happened this past week I suspect the quota won't be exhausted before the promotion ends...

 

[nick291]

If it's this one you'd be forgiven for thinking it was on the Green Line 757 instead!

When I take the coach to London on occasion that's my go-to but I recently used NX for a change as they're offering promo £2 singles on the A1/A2/A31 to Luton Airport only (LUTON2 code at the checkout phase); previously you had to book 14+ days in advance but that was reduced to 7+ days recently. Given what's happened this past week I suspect the quota won't be exhausted before the promotion ends...

It does look nice liveried up in ABE's scheme. Hopefully NatEx take note and can find a way to modernise theirs.

 

[darloscott]

Airport Bus Express also operating on the A1 today for National Express as well!

Another new vehicle never seen before operating on it too, that's 6 different vehicles operating NX services from Airport Bus Express now compared to only a couple a few weeks ago.

It does seem to look like they are taking on more and more work.

I’m amazed they’ve held onto all of the Tourismos for the year & a half since they operated the Liverpool St service! I think they had either 10 or 11 in total from memory.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I’m amazed they’ve held onto all of the Tourismos for the year & a half since they operated the Liverpool St service! I think they had either 10 or 11 in total from memory.

They've been doing private hire work and rail replacement since then

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They're all pretty basic compared to the Levante 3's I have to say.

Last time I used the 717 they only had two liveried vehicles up and the other ones had safety notices for a Levante 3, non working Wifi (still configured for the now disconnected Airport Bus Express network) and displays that certainly didn't meet modern requirements in terms of visibility, complete with spelling mistakes

At least one of the 2021 Tourismos have gone.

 

[Titfield]

Airport Bus Express also operating on the A1 today for National Express as well!

Another new vehicle never seen before operating on it too, that's 6 different vehicles operating NX services from Airport Bus Express now compared to only a couple a few weeks ago.

It does seem to look like they are taking on more and more work.

And that is never the good sign it may appear to be. Many operators struggle with rapid growth: recruiting and training drivers, ensuring compliance be that road worthiness and drivers hours.

 

[darloscott]

And that is never the good sign it may appear to be. Many operators struggle with rapid growth: recruiting and training drivers, ensuring compliance be that road worthiness and drivers hours.

To be fair I bet they’re taking on NX Stansted drivers!

 

[F Great Eastern]

To be fair I bet they’re taking on NX Stansted drivers!

I would imagine so, their Ipswich runs replaced Galloway operated ones (despite really being the wrong end of the route in terms of service recovery) and all of the other work they appear to be doing on various NX routes seems to be replacing NX directly operated Stansted workings.

 

[speedy1]

Nexp have put up a replacement website https://www2.nationalexpress.com/en

Don't tell me they switched to the new site close to the weekend??

I can't checkout:

"Oops, an unexpected error happened! Please wait a few minutes before you try again"

Their Sentry account is over-quota too lol

 

[F Great Eastern]

The my account section doesn't work at all for me now, I can login but it just endlessly loads.

 

[Sealink]

Do we know how long the contact centre is going to stay in the UK for? I am going to need to make some amendments that cannot be done online over the next couple of months and I've always found their staff in Birmingham extremely pleasant to deal with.

What kind of amendments? A National Express booking agent may be able to make the them?