How can the Stranraer line be made more useful/less useless?

[Bill57p9]

Electrification and frequency upgrade to Girvan but closure south thereof would probably be a pragmatic solution. Buses (ideally electric) could operate between Girvan and Stranraer/Cairnryan integrated to the timetable. This would probably be better for everyone as an hourly bus would likely be feasible.

With regret (the line south of Girvan is a little known scenic gem) I do agree.

I suspect an hourly express bus Girvan - Stranraer would be quicker than the train too, and as you say, could also serve Cairnryan (and Loch Ryan port at the other end of the village).

The extant RailSail Ayr - Cairnryan service has been reduced to only one per day and passes Girvan station ( I can understand why Ayr is a more appealing interchange than Girvan currently with half hourly direct services to/from Glasgow).

 

[Transilien]

The key difference is that this line lost its main purpose when the ferries moved.

Therefore, the main way to save the Stranraer line would be to move the ferries back to the station. It’s probably impossible to do that though.

 

[35B]

Therefore, the main way to save the Stranraer line would be to move the ferries back to the station. It’s probably impossible to do that though.

That also raises the question of why the ferries exist, and what needs the different transport modes serve. Forcing a move of the ferries to support (an already highly unprofitable) railway feels a little like the tail wagging the dog

 

[Bill57p9]

Therefore, the main way to save the Stranraer line would be to move the ferries back to the station. It’s probably impossible to do that though.

The ferries moved for valid commercial reasons, primarily reducing the crossing time.
The operators are not looking for ways to increase that!

 

[Elwyn]

The ferries moved for valid commercial reasons, primarily reducing the crossing time.
The operators are not looking for ways to increase that!

Therefore, the main way to save the Stranraer line would be to move the ferries back to the station. It’s probably impossible to do that though.

Stranraer harbour is comparatively shallow and does not suit the bigger modern vessels. Regular dredging would be required and that makes no sense when Cairnryan does not need dredging. Stena also save 20 minutes each way by using Cairnryan rather than Stranraer.

The days of foot passengers travelling to Stranraer by train to join ferries in significant numbers are gone. Stranraer will never be a ferry port again and train connections for ferries will not be required there either.

 

[Strathclyder]

Electrification and frequency upgrade to Girvan but closure south thereof would probably be a pragmatic solution. Buses (ideally electric) could operate between Girvan and Stranraer/Cairnryan integrated to the timetable. This would probably be better for everyone as an hourly bus would likely be feasible.

With regret (the line south of Girvan is a little known scenic gem) I do agree.

I suspect an hourly express bus Girvan - Stranraer would be quicker than the train too, and as you say, could also serve Cairnryan (and Loch Ryan port at the other end of the village).

The extant RailSail Ayr - Cairnryan service has been reduced to only one per day and passes Girvan station ( I can understand why Ayr is a more appealing interchange than Girvan currently with half hourly direct services to/from Glasgow).

That could very well be feasible and the least worst option when it comes to alternatives in a post-south of Girvan closure scenario, but it would require a level of joined up thinking & operation that hasn't existed between public transport modes - or isn't nearly as widespread as it should be - in Scotland for as long as I can remember, regardless of a plan's feasibility. So I can't shake my cynicism on this topic, am afraid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That could very well be feasible and the least worst option when it comes to alternatives in a post-south of Girvan closure scenario, but it would require a level of joined up thinking & operation that hasn't existed between public transport modes - or isn't nearly as widespread as it should be - in Scotland for as long as I can remember regardless of a plan's feasibility, so I can't shake my cynicism on this am afraid.

I must admit it does surprise me that Scotland hasn't considered following Wales in regulating the bus service nationally. It would allow for proper integration like this.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Stranraer harbour is comparatively shallow and does not suit the bigger modern vessels. Regular dredging would be required and that makes no sense when Cairnryan does not need dredging. Stena also save 20 minutes each way by using Cairnryan rather than Stranraer.

The days of foot passengers travelling to Stranraer by train to join ferries in significant numbers are gone. Stranraer will never be a ferry port again and train connections for ferries will not be required there either.

And if you travel by Stena the arrangements at the Belfast end are not ideal either - you have to faff around waiting to take the bus to the city-centre. A lot of the remaining foot passengers use Hannon's coaches which provide a twice daily through service Glasgow - Belfast and v.v.

 

[Class15]

I must admit it does surprise me that Scotland hasn't considered following Wales in regulating the bus service nationally. It would allow for proper integration like this.

I’m not trying to prove you wrong as I genuinely have no idea, but what makes you think they haven’t considered it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not trying to prove you wrong as I genuinely have no idea, but what makes you think they haven’t considered it?

It might have done, I more mean why they haven't decided to do it!

One for another thread to delve into it, but it would make stuff like this easier.

 

[Rescars]

That also raises the question of why the ferries exist, and what needs the different transport modes serve.

For an answer to your question, just look at the volume of freight on the A75 and A76, both of which are mainly single carriageway with sparse opportunities for overtaking. Oh how the motorist's heart sinks coming off the motorway at Carlisle and seeing the sign at the start of the single carriageway: Stranraer 95 miles! With the Port Road long gone sadly there are no reasonable alternatives for reaching Stranraer from the south. It would be regrettable indeed if those heading down from Girvan were to suffer a similar absence of choice.

 

[35B]

For an answer to your question, just look at the volume of freight on the A75 and A76, both of which are mainly single carriageway with sparse opportunities for overtaking. Oh how the motorist's heart sinks coming off the motorway at Carlisle and seeing the sign at the start of the single carriageway: Stranraer 95 miles! With the Port Road long gone sadly there are no reasonable alternatives for reaching Stranraer from the south. It would be regrettable indeed if those heading down from Girvan were to suffer a similar absence of choice.

I can't see that as an argument for the existing line - the railway's been an irrelevance for freight to the North Channel for my whole lifetime, so the ferries are serving a need that the railway simply doesn't meet.

 

[The exile]

For an answer to your question, just look at the volume of freight on the A75 and A76, both of which are mainly single carriageway with sparse opportunities for overtaking. Oh how the motorist's heart sinks coming off the motorway at Carlisle and seeing the sign at the start of the single carriageway: Stranraer 95 miles! With the Port Road long gone sadly there are no reasonable alternatives for reaching Stranraer from the south. It would be regrettable indeed if those heading down from Girvan were to suffer a similar absence of choice.

The only thing is, presumably, that that freight is heading for Cairnryan - not Stranraer (any more).

 

[HighlandStorm]

Even if a peak train carries 40 people, we are talking about a substantial railway carrying bus passenger numbers.

To be honest some of the vibes in this thread seem to be of not merely close the railway, but bulldoze places like Stranraer into the sea while you’re at it! The UK as a whole does seem to have a very poor attitude to investing in and providing for its rural areas.

Treasury orthodoxy is a major contributing factor to an inefficient low growth economy.

I suspect if devolution hadn’t happened in 1999, the Scottish rail network would have contracted over the past 27 years instead of expanding. As I’ve said before, if you expect all tax payers to contribute to the railway, you should not be looking to leave large swathes of the British mainland without a railway.

The only exception I’d countenance to that might be if the Stranrer line was cut back as part of a comprehensive transport package that saw a substantial upgrade to the A77 south of Girvan along with electrification to Girvan and ScotRail operated coaches to Stranraer.

Do we really want to open the line closures can of worms? Particularly when right wing populists are pledging to roll back devolution and remove legislative authority from the Scottish and Welsh Parliaments to make them enact polices laid down from HM Government.

 

[NCT]

About 85% of the UK is urbanised. To be blunt, a railway that funded by 85% of taxpayers for those 85% would be an entirely fair way of the world. As things stand, the portion of the 15% that are rail connected are subsidised by the 85%.

 

[HighlandStorm]

About 85% of the UK is urbanised. To be blunt, a railway that funded by 85% of taxpayers for those 85% would be an entirely fair way of the world. As things stand, the portion of the 15% that are rail connected are subsidised by the 85%.

How does that 85% expect to survive if the 15% weren’t rural ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

About 85% of the UK is urbanised. To be blunt, a railway that funded by 85% of taxpayers for those 85% would be an entirely fair way of the world

That's generally not how a redistributive tax system works.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

About 85% of the UK is urbanised. To be blunt, a railway that funded by 85% of taxpayers for those 85% would be an entirely fair way of the world. As things stand, the portion of the 15% that are rail connected are subsidised by the 85%.

You don’t want to eat then?
I’m sure the rural folk will be happy to keep all their food from the rural farms so you can focus on your urbanised railway then.

Never heard of the word share?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don’t want to eat then?
I’m sure the rural folk will be happy to keep all their food from the rural farms so you can focus on your urbanised railway then.

Never heard of the word share?

@NCT's argument would basically lead to a Serpell network, maybe leaving a few bits in place like Merseyrail which he was going to close* in favour of buses. Stranraer is a particular basket case of course but the view they express is very much the extreme end.

* Completely close the Southport line and most of the Wirral, the Ormskirk line would have lost its local stations and become intercity only, if I recall.

 

[Rescars]

I can't see that as an argument for the existing line - the railway's been an irrelevance for freight to the North Channel for my whole lifetime, so the ferries are serving a need that the railway simply doesn't meet.

Well it isn't as matters stand. Though in the highly improbable event of a significant switch to railbourne freight, there should be no capacity problem at Cairnryan. IIRC, whilst fully operational, the Cairnryan Military Railway had sidings for 2,900 wagons.

Had things turned out differently, Cairnryan might have been connected to the network well before 1940. The Glasgow and Belfast Union Railway proposed a route via Cairnryan as early as 1845.

 

[Gloster]

@NCT's argument would basically lead to a Serpell network, maybe leaving a few bits in place like Merseyrail which he was going to close* in favour of buses. Stranraer is a particular basket case of course but the view they express is very much the extreme end.

* Completely close the Southport line and most of the Wirral, the Ormskirk line would have lost its local stations and become intercity only, if I recall.

Liverpool-Southport would have gone in Option A, the nuclear one, and B, the nuclear one plus a few extra London outer-suburban lines, together with Oxford and Westbury. It was retained in the other options

Stranraer also went in Options A and B, but also in C3, the ’reduce the deficit to £500 million’ one. But there are all sorts of illogical things in the report, such as keeping the Vale of Rheidol as an isolated line in a couple of options.

 

[Acathater]

The only thing is, presumably, that that freight is heading for Cairnryan - not Stranraer (any more).

I'm surprised that there's much freight coming from the south given that Heysham is around 180 miles shorter by road.
Is the Cairnryan traffic mainly accompanied or unaccompanied trucks?