Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[scosutsut]

I wouldn't be shocked if ECB don't go in for the 123 on renewal as that's the one that needs the shorter vehicle, whereas 120/1 can take a full length. (I believe)

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I wouldn't be shocked if ECB don't go in for the 123 on renewal as that's the one that needs the shorter vehicle, whereas 120/1 can take a full length. (I believe)

It would be nice to see the routes return to Prentice again, bid provided. Would make sense for ECB to have the 111 and Prentice the 121/123. Even Prentice just having all the fully subsidised routes would work well.

 

[alexf380]

I wouldn't be shocked if ECB don't go in for the 123 on renewal as that's the one that needs the shorter vehicle, whereas 120/1 can take a full length. (I believe)

The right turn in Kingston heading towards Haddington has become a hotspot for accidents in the bigger buses as they are striking the wall with their tail swing. It can be done, but for a while it was more or less a weekly occurrence someone would take a panel off.

 

[overthewater]

When is East Lothain council tenders up for grabs?

 

[H00V3R]

When is East Lothain council tenders up for grabs?

I believe they are 2 year tenders so due for renewal in the next few months. They originally started operating them in April 2025.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

It would be nice to see the routes return to Prentice again, bid provided. Would make sense for ECB to have the 111 and Prentice the 121/123. Even Prentice just having all the fully subsidised routes would work well.

Shhh, don't give them any ideas

I get what your saying though, but to be honest I quite like that East Coast have more local routes in their network now, but I've got to give a shout out to Prentice also as they are a fine independent operator.

I couldn't envision East Coast taking on any of the prentice routes, the 111 maybe but that's as far as I'll go, 108/115/122 would be pointless to them, and maybe an enhanced 110, but honestly I think these routes all work well under Prentice anyway.

I believe they are 2 year tenders so due for renewal in the next few months. They originally started operating them in April 2025.

Are there any old route tenders that are not being used? Like the old 130 route, or the old 128/129

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I believe they are 2 year tenders so due for renewal in the next few months. They originally started operating them in April 2025.

I have my doubts they will bid again to be honest. They’re an incredibly awkward part of the business and really not suited to Lothian’s portfolio at all.

Did East Lothian Council get any of SESTrans funding that we seen West Lothian, Midlothian and Edinburgh Councils use to fund extensions/new routes? I don’t remember East Lothian being mentioned anywhere within this?

 

[H00V3R]

Are there any old route tenders that are not being used? Like the old 130 route, or the old 128/129

The 130 route has no bids if I remember right so may be revived somewhat. The section into Yosemite Park was absorbed into the 120. I have my doubts they will bid again to be honest. They’re an incredibly awkward part of the business and really not suited to Lothian’s portfolio at all.

I have my doubts they will bid again to be honest. They’re an incredibly awkward part of the business and really not suited to Lothian’s portfolio at all.

Did East Lothian Council get any of SESTrans funding that we seen West Lothian, Midlothian and Edinburgh Councils use to fund extensions/new routes? I don’t remember East Lothian being mentioned anywhere within this?

I can see the 120 definitely being rebid for, it sees a decent amount of passengers (especially in the summer months) and links their 2 extremity points. As far as i’ve heard it works fine in/out of Dunbar depot.

The 121/123 I don’t see them rebidding for. As you said it just doesn’t fit in with their usual operations and them interworking will likely see them go. The 121 could interwork with the 120 but it really doesn’t justify a 60 minute frequency.

ELC did receive £290000 in SESTrans funding however I don’t believe any has been allocated? If anyone knows otherwise it would be good to find out.

 

[318266]

The problem with Lothian running smaller council tenders isn't that they don't want to, it's more that they don't have the vehicles to and can't financially justify the purchase of brand new vehicles nor are interested in a further ex-London style refurbishment service for what would probably not exceed 10 total vehicles. If I recall correctly, the StreetAirs were considered the closest that could work, and I suspect that's why some/all of them are in Belfast, for re-engineering into either a diesel or some form of NewPower conversion. Being bespoke vehicles, whatever solution that is came to would be bespoke, but I suspect Wrightbus would want to assist Lothian with this to improve their renewing relationship.

 

[Lothian285]

ELC did receive £290000 in SESTrans funding however I don’t believe any has been allocated? If anyone knows otherwise it would be good to find out.

The new Prentice service X11 is using this funding. It was also mentioned at the Lothian service changes that ECB services 106/107 were receiving some of this funding, but it didn't specify what journeys, possibly the Sunday extension of the 106?

 

[Resuwen]

Would be good if Lothian would buy Prentice and ideally get all East Lothian service buses under the ECB brand.

Better for passengers.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I can see the 120 definitely being rebid for, it sees a decent amount of passengers (especially in the summer months) and links their 2 extremity points. As far as i’ve heard it works fine in/out of Dunbar depot.

The 121/123 I don’t see them rebidding for. As you said it just doesn’t fit in with their usual operations and them interworking will likely see them go. The 121 could interwork with the 120 but it really doesn’t justify a 60 minute frequency.

That’s probably a fair assessment. The 120 indeed does make operational sense to keep. A minor adjustment on Sundays to run with a single bus and terminate it at the Seabird Centre would be necessary, but otherwise leave it. The timetable in essence is fine.

Prentice get 121/123 and if ECB wished to bid for 111 I think that would be a better fit. Again, if ECB’s driver shortage continues they may just want rid of 121/123 without replacement. Possibly offering Prentice to take the vehicles with it should they bid successfully.

I could only see Prentice getting 121/123 if ECB don’t bid. There’s no obvious other company to pick them up.

Would be good if Lothian would buy Prentice and ideally get all East Lothian service buses under the ECB brand.

Better for passengers.

I’m not sure this is a good idea. What could work is a joint ticket agreement between the operators. Prentice take Ridacards and DayTickets, but otherwise no I would suggest this isn’t a good idea. CMA would probably block it in any case as it would leave Lothian/ECB with a total monopoly of East Lothian.

 

[Avenger20]

Why would you want a decent, reputable local business to absorbed by a larger business located in the city?

Surely as others have said the actual answer would be an inter-operater ticketing agreement.

Prentice are a decent independent operator and it's better that it remain that way.

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Possibly offering Prentice to take the vehicles with it should they bid successfully.

Good luck fitting more buses in their garage, nevermind longer wheelbase ones.

 

[Lothianbus703]

The problem with Lothian running smaller council tenders isn't that they don't want to, it's more that they don't have the vehicles to and can't financially justify the purchase of brand new vehicles nor are interested in a further ex-London style refurbishment service for what would probably not exceed 10 total vehicles. If I recall correctly, the StreetAirs were considered the closest that could work, and I suspect that's why some/all of them are in Belfast, for re-engineering into either a diesel or some form of NewPower conversion. Being bespoke vehicles, whatever solution that is came to would be bespoke, but I suspect Wrightbus would want to assist Lothian with this to improve their renewing relationship.

Adding to your point is the fact that Lothian are perfectly capable of running these services and hopefully do expand into more smaller vehicle based routes.
It has been unfortunate that the E200MMC's havent worked as well with Lothian as they would of liked, its also strange as I have never noticed issues like this with other E200MMCs in service in the UK. Perhaps Mercedes sprinter based vehicles would suit Lothian better.

 

[Busman757]

Revision to Service X19 from Sunday 25th October 2026

Following customer feedback and discussions with West Lothian Council, Service X19 will operate an additional weekday morning journey between Kirkliston and The Centre, Livingston, from Sunday 25 October.

Additionally, there will be adjustments to the late evening service on Sundays to provide connections from Livingston and Deer Park to Winchburgh and Kirkliston. Please see below for a summary of the changes.

Monday to Friday
NEW Kirkliston – Livingston (dep 07:35, arr 08:30)

Sunday
• Winchburgh – Edinburgh (21:11 & 22:11) extended to Livingston at 20:35 & 21:35 respectively.
• Edinburgh – Winchburgh (20:00) extended to Livingston at 21:25.
• Edinburgh – Winchburgh (at 21:00, 22:00 and 23:00) extended to serve Deer Park.

Revisions to Service X19 from Sunday 25 October - Lothian Buses

From Sunday 25 October, revisions will be made to Service X19 with an additional weekday morning journey introduced following feedback from customers.

www.lothianbuses.com

This is a decent change, especially the new extra journey from Kirkliston at 0735. Helps people get to St John’s Hospital in time for their 0900 appointments. Also helps college students.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 11:23 ==

Diesel orders:

• 60x Volvo B8L / Alexander Dennis Enviro 400XLB (12.8m variant, single door)
• 20x Volvo B8RLE / MCV Evora (unconfirmed lengths)
• Both of the above were confirmed in a RouteOne article
• That the "majority" of above orders for Lothian Country & East Coast Buses with some B8Ls for Airlink (same source as above)

ScotZEB3 funding was awarded for:

• 40x Volvo BZL / Alexander Dennis 400EV
• 20x Wright Electroliner
• Transport Scotland Announcement

What I believe is unconfirmed but rumoured / theorised:

• The BZL / Electroliner order is not placed yet, due to McGills legal challenge against ScotGov on ScotZEB3 criteria
• The current B8Ls on Airlink will cascade to City after refurb
• All or the majority of the B8RLE Evora order is for ECB
• That some of the B8RLEs might be for City if not
• Some of the B8RLE Evora's maybe shorter lengths to suit ECB council contract routes 120/1/3
• That the B8RLE Evora's for ECB will replace all existing singles - E200 MMC, B7RLE/Eclipse 2, B8RLE/Eclipse 3.
• The Eclipse 3s are going to City (51 first in refurb right now)

What I'd add from my own thinking:

• I'd expect B9TLs to be fully retired by end of this at both LCB & ECB
• ECB fleet being B5TL, B8L, B8RLE only
• LCB fleet being B5TL, B5LH, B8L only

A lot of this is from memory, so if anyone wants to correct me please do!

As far as I was led to believe the B5TL’s at LCB were to return to city. Unless things have changed.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Good luck fitting more buses in their garage, nevermind longer wheelbase ones.

191-193 are the same lengths as the current stuff they have, so they would fit actually.

 

[overthewater]

I have to say X19 has been fixed pretty fast, so well done. I was expecting a bus from Winch around 07.55 but 07.45 will do, allowing people to get to work and college, kudos!!

Revisions to Service X19 from Sunday 25 October - Lothian Buses

From Sunday 25 October, revisions will be made to Service X19 with an additional weekday morning journey introduced following feedback from customers.

www.lothianbuses.com

Following customer feedback and discussions with West Lothian Council, Service X19 will operate an additional weekday morning journey between Kirkliston and The Centre, Livingston, from Sunday 25 October.

Additionally, there will be adjustments to the late evening service on Sundays to provide connections from Livingston and Deer Park to Winchburgh and Kirkliston. Please see below for a summary of the changes.

Monday to Friday
NEW Kirkliston – Livingston (dep 07:35, arr 08:30)

Sunday
• Winchburgh – Edinburgh (21:11 & 22:11) extended to Livingston at 20:35 & 21:35 respectively.
• Edinburgh – Winchburgh (20:00) extended to Livingston at 21:25.
• Edinburgh – Winchburgh (at 21:00, 22:00 and 23:00) extended to serve Deer Park.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I have to say X19 has been fixed pretty fast, so well done. I was expecting a bus from Winch around 07.55 but 07.45 will do, allowing people to get to work and college, kudos!!

Revisions to Service X19 from Sunday 25 October - Lothian Buses

From Sunday 25 October, revisions will be made to Service X19 with an additional weekday morning journey introduced following feedback from customers.

www.lothianbuses.com

Gotta give credit where's it due to Lothian, or in this case West Lothian Council, they are doing what they can do make the service helpful to the public!

I'm looking to finally trial the X19 extension next month, hopefully it's an enjoyable journey!

Would be good if Lothian would buy Prentice and ideally get all East Lothian service buses under the ECB brand.

Better for passengers.

I get what your saying but I don't think this would be a good idea, better to keep em separate, unless we had an Eve Coaches situation going on here in terms of tickets integration!

 

[LothianBusesPh]

191-193 are the same lengths as the current stuff they have, so they would fit actually.

I assumed you meant 195/6. Even then my point was their garage is at capacity as it is

 

[CSB0241]

The X27/X28 could do with being upped to half hourly each to make a combined 15 minute service. The West Lothian locals again up to half hourly. The 43 could easily sustain a 15 minute service, with all the new houses being built in Queensferry.

My assumption was that the new XLBs would be used on these routes so that there is the added capacity without the need to have more buses out on the road at any given time.

The Fastest bus ever between Linlithgow and Livingston was 15 years ago when First had a 47 every 2 hours from Bo'ness

Could there be demand for Lothian Country to run a service out to Bo’ness? Considering it’s size it’s got quite a sparse bus network (1 bus every 35min to Falkirk, 1 bus every 2 hours to Stirling/Edinburgh, one bus every 2 hours to Linlithgow) so maybe a service in tandem with the 43 every hour (Bo’ness - Newton - Queensferry - A90 - Edinburgh) every hour Mon-Sat could work?

A very popular route then.View attachment 212944

Was there ever a proper terminus (or just a timing point where buses were to wait for ~5 minutes or so) on the 32/52 (or the old 1/6 for that matter)?

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

My assumption was that the new XLBs would be used on these routes so that there is the added capacity without the need to have more buses out on the road at any given time.


Could there be demand for Lothian Country to run a service out to Bo’ness? Considering it’s size it’s got quite a sparse bus network (1 bus every 35min to Falkirk, 1 bus every 2 hours to Stirling/Edinburgh, one bus every 2 hours to Linlithgow) so maybe a service in tandem with the 43 every hour (Bo’ness - Newton - Queensferry - A90 - Edinburgh) every hour Mon-Sat could work?


Was there ever a proper terminus (or just a timing point where buses were to wait for ~5 minutes or so) on the 32/52 (or the old 1/6 for that matter)?

Bo'Ness is in Falkirk Council area so Lothian Country probably wouldn't run to there

 

[VioletEclipse]

I believe they are 2 year tenders so due for renewal in the next few months. They originally started operating them in April 2025.

Do we have a clearer idea on when the retendering will actually take place?

 

[Volvodart]

Do we have a clearer idea on when the retendering will actually take place?

The tender notice said it was 48 months so there is a lot of time left, but the contract award did not show a duration so it could have changed.

 

[Baileygirl]

Was there ever a proper terminus (or just a timing point where buses were to wait for ~5 minutes or so) on the 32/52 (or the old 1/6 for that matter

I know that they stopped at Hay Drive. The inner circle would go into the turning circle and outer circle used to stop opposite. The other end would be Westerhailes. The 1/6 used to be bottom of Easter Road and Clermiston.

 

[DunsBus]

I know that they stopped at Hay Drive. The inner circle would go into the turning circle and outer circle used to stop opposite. The other end would be Westerhailes. The 1/6 used to be bottom of Easter Road and Clermiston.

It was the same with the 1/6. The 1 went into the Clermiston terminus to take its layover whilst the 6 waited opposite. Both services also laid over at the foot of Easter Road.

The 32/52 had three layover points, Muirhouse (two minutes), Clovenstone (also two minutes) and Hay Drive (five minutes).

 

[NotInService]

Do we have a clearer idea on when the retendering will actually take place?

Going by some readily available information in the public domain, they've already been awarded just last week actually!

Service 120, 121, 123, and apparently the return of the 130 (although no link to confirm), are all going back to Eve Coaches Ltd from April 2027.

I'll be intrigued to see how it all unfolds.

 

[Porty]

Going by some readily available information in the public domain, they've already been awarded just last week actually!

Service 120, 121, 123, and apparently the return of the 130 (although no link to confirm), are all going back to Eve Coaches Ltd from April 2027.

I'll be intrigued to see how it all unfolds.

But aren't Eve wholly owned by Lothian?

 

[Lothian285]

Going by some readily available information in the public domain, they've already been awarded just last week actually!

Service 120, 121, 123, and apparently the return of the 130 (although no link to confirm), are all going back to Eve Coaches Ltd from April 2027.

I'll be intrigued to see how it all unfolds.

I would question the legitimacy of this website.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Those are dated 25 Feb 2020. Anything new would be under East Coast Buses LTD.