ScotRail to introduce £10 minimum fare for those not buying before boarding

[JamieL]

To be very clear, it is the people who literally do not have access to a bank card who are particularly disadvantaged, and it is those people you will be penalising under your idea.

There are much bigger issues for debanked people than getting on a train. That is a social issue and for social services and charities to support, not one for the railway. And using such a tiny proportion of people to allow grifters and non-payers to exploit to the detriment of the community does more harm than good.

 

[AlterEgo]

There are much bigger issues for debanked people than getting on a train.

The fact that this cohort has bigger issues does not justify or minimise the effect of proposed policies which are by your own admission designed to cause harm to them even if it is a by product of something else.

. And using such a tiny proportion of people to allow grifters and non-payers to exploit to the detriment of the community does more harm than good.

Why not just suggest the railway goes card only then instead of inviting people to get massively overcharged based on vibes? Or, better still, post a thread in Speculative Discussion?

 

[JamieL]

I would have no issue with card only payment - I think it is inevitable eventually. In the meantime though, the minimum fare, whilst nowhere near as high as it needs to be, is at least a step in the right direction.

 

[Inverasdale]

I don't think this has yet been posted, but some interesting info in a FOI request. ScotRail may instantly have leapt to the top of the charts of "Most open Scottish public bodies", given that nearly all others are on the Scottish Information Commissioner's hit list.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/26628894.scotrail-makes-268-560-10-minimum-fares-3-months/

"In response to a Freedom of Information (FOI) request submitted by The Herald, ScotRail said it issued 26,856 Minimum Fare tickets between July 1 and September 29, 2026, generating £268,560.

In the same FOI, ScotRail confirmed conductors receive a 5% commission on ticket sales made through their onboard devices, while ticket examiners and gateline staff receive 3%.

Staff also earn 2p for every QR-coded ticket or smartcard scanned, a payment introduced as part of a 2022 pay deal.

The vast majority of £10 minimum fares have been issued by gateline staff, ticket examiners, and revenue protection officers who receive 3% commission, resulting in thousands of pounds."

 

[furlong]

ScotRail said it issued 26,856 Minimum Fare tickets between July 1 and September 29, 2026,

Maybe the paper would like to follow that up by asking how many were issued prior to 30th July 2026 when the NRCOT was updated (9.2.4) and under what lawful authority it issued any prior to that date and if there was no such authority how it will handle refunds (which the paper can tell its readers)?

 

[teaspoon]

personally I'd be curious to know if the number issued dropped off after the introduction of the new app...

 

[318266]

Maybe the paper would like to follow that up by asking how many were issued prior to 30th July 2026 when the NRCOT was updated (9.2.4) and under what lawful authority it issued any prior to that date and if there was no such authority how it will handle refunds (which the paper can tell its readers)?

I actually requested this under FOISA (the Scottish freedom of information act) at the time. It appears that SRT's position is that the minimum fares were issued lawfully in the intervening period (presumably interpreted as the undiscounted single fare under 9.2.1, but the exact reason was predictably withheld under legal advice privilege). To quote their response:

ScotRail have introduced the Minimum fare policy, retaining dialogue with all relevant rail and passenger bodies throughout. The Minimum Fare is signposted online and in stations before passenger’s board a train and is clear in our own terms and conditions. To avoid any doubt, and to afford full clarity for passengers, there has been an update to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, published on the 30th of July, with the following inclusion:

9.2.4 For services operating wholly in Scotland, to charge you a minimum fare which will be the higher of
(a) the full undiscounted single fare to your destination; or
(b) a sum not to exceed £20.

 

[sannox]

personally I'd be curious to know if the number issued dropped off after the introduction of the new app...

My experience of Glasgow services is that it's variable. I've seem most Ticket Examiners just selling regular tickets where people have blamed the app.

 

[cf111]

Just one example of how I have experienced the new system now it has been in place for a while. I wanted to buy a rail and sail ticket to Bute from Camelon, unmanned and the ticket machine won't sell you that ticket (at least not when I tried!), so to stay on the safe side I obtained a "promise to pay" to Wemyss Bay. When the guard came round I was cheerfully sold the rail and sail ticket to Rothesay and was able to pay by card.

 

[JamieL]

I don't think this has yet been posted, but some interesting info in a FOI request. ScotRail may instantly have leapt to the top of the charts of "Most open Scottish public bodies", given that nearly all others are on the Scottish Information Commissioner's hit list.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/26628894.scotrail-makes-268-560-10-minimum-fares-3-months/

"In response to a Freedom of Information (FOI) request submitted by The Herald, ScotRail said it issued 26,856 Minimum Fare tickets between July 1 and September 29, 2026, generating £268,560.

In the same FOI, ScotRail confirmed conductors receive a 5% commission on ticket sales made through their onboard devices, while ticket examiners and gateline staff receive 3%.

Staff also earn 2p for every QR-coded ticket or smartcard scanned, a payment introduced as part of a 2022 pay deal.

The vast majority of £10 minimum fares have been issued by gateline staff, ticket examiners, and revenue protection officers who receive 3% commission, resulting in thousands of pounds."

The wording implies that the commission should be seen is bad? I disagree. We absolutely should be incentivising staff to go out there and find grifters and freeloaders. I would be quite happy for the minimum fare to be increased significantly to ensure the commission earnt helped drive action.

 

[sannox]

The wording implies that the commission should be seen is bad? I disagree. We absolutely should be incentivising staff to go out there and find grifters and freeloaders. I would be quite happy for the minimum fare to be increased significantly to ensure the commission earnt helped drive action.

I would think staff get less money since the £10 fare. It wasn't uncommon on Glasgow services to see regular ticket sales.

 

[redreni]

Just one example of how I have experienced the new system now it has been in place for a while. I wanted to buy a rail and sail ticket to Bute from Camelon, unmanned and the ticket machine won't sell you that ticket (at least not when I tried!), so to stay on the safe side I obtained a "promise to pay" to Wemyss Bay. When the guard came round I was cheerfully sold the rail and sail ticket to Rothesay and was able to pay by card.

Which is as it should be; 6.1.1 of the NRCoT was engaged in the circumstances you describe:

6.1 You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel for the journey you intend to make before you board a train unless at the time, one of the following circumstances applies at the station you depart from: 6.1.1 There were no facilities for the issue of the Ticket you require or other authority to travel either because there was no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine was not in working order, or would not accept your only available method of payment (card or cash); or [There are several other circumstances set out, but they're irrelevant here].

In this case, there were no facilities at Camelon for the issue of the ticket you required because there was no ticket office open. As the TVMs don't sell the ticket you required, the non-existence of an open ticket office was sufficient to mean there were no facilities for the issue of the ticket you required. So you had every right to buy on board. And anyway, your fare was (presumably) more than £10.

This initiative is aimed more at those making local(ish) journeys who won't buy a ticket at all unless the ticket examiner gets to them, in which case they will just ask for an inexpensive single from wherever the train stopped last to their destination, when they could have bought the correct ticket from a TVM before boarding.

 

[Haywain]

I would think staff get less money since the £10 fare. It wasn't uncommon on Glasgow services to see regular ticket sales.

That is as it should be, and is part of the reason for them getting paid for scanning barcoded tickets.

 

[sannox]

This initiative is aimed more at those making local(ish) journeys who won't buy a ticket at all unless the ticket examiner gets to them, in which case they will just ask for an inexpensive single from wherever the train stopped last to their destination, when they could have bought the correct ticket from a TVM before boarding.

It will be interesting to see if the number of tickets sold from places like Crossmyloof etc drops.

Used to be a classic on the barriers at Central to see a load of folk leave the EK train and ask for a 'return from Crossmyloof'!

 

[leymoo]

Wanted to share my experience of this from August.

The giant sign at Bellgrove telling you about the penalty fare scheme *hides the view to the ticket machine* from the station entrance (as you enter it via a set of stairs from the bridge).

It also doesn't state that the station does have ticket machines behind the sign.

So if you're first arriving at the station, and see the train... it's extremely easy to board and then not realise you needed to have bought the fare, especially as the app georestricts buying from that station on the various apps unless you are physically there. And because the guard merrily sold a fare to us on day 1 after we tried the Scotrail app and it wouldn't permit purchasing a ticket for some reason we never narrowed down (both of us on foreign cards as I'm not a uk resident anymore and my companion was american), we boarded on day 2 expecting a guard.

I was informed that I should have been charged the £10 fare at GQS but they waived it - I suspect offering to pay and repeatedly asking if there was "a way to pay for the ticket" and us being two middle aged women might have been part of it. But the experience did make me feel like a teenager again... and not in the good way!

 

[mmh]

the app georestricts buying from that station on the various apps unless you are physically there

Not sure I entirely understand what you mean there, but I'm sure there won't be any ticket selling app that checks where you are.

 

[leymoo]

Not sure I entirely understand what you mean there, but I'm sure there won't be any ticket selling app that checks where you are.

It’s the ScotRail Tap and Go app that uses the location details in the app. (Not to be confused with the normal ScotRail app).

 

[davp]

It’s the ScotRail Tap and Go app that uses the location details in the app. (Not to be confused with the normal ScotRail app).

It does check where you are, but that app doesn't sell you a ticket, it should generate a barcode for you to use.

The regular ScotRail app doesn't georestrict Bellgrove tickets, and I doubt any other app selling tickets does either. If it's from Bellgrove into Glasgow then it requires a collection from a ticket machine, but to elsewhere you can get a ticket to show in the app. The Trainsplit app seems to show eTickets for Glasgow. I haven't checked any others.

ScotRail staff are generally pragmatic in these sorts of situations and advising you about how you should have bought a ticket isn't unreasonable; I'm not sure being on the receiving end of that conversation is ever going to feel super comfortable.

I agree with your implied point about being sold a ticket on the train without any comment. The new app has been that problematic that I suspect many staff have long given up considering charging a minimum fare on the train, especially where they have little backup if someone becomes upset about that. That doesn't help the passenger who now thinks that buying on the train is the norm.

Just in case you are visiting other parts of the UK, be mindful that almost everywhere requires a ticket before you travel. Outside of Scotland penalty fares are much higher, and the train company might decide to prosecute you instead - something that effectively doesn't happen in Scotland.

 

[leymoo]

It does check where you are, but that app doesn't sell you a ticket, it should generate a barcode for you to use.

The regular ScotRail app doesn't georestrict Bellgrove tickets, and I doubt any other app selling tickets does either. If it's from Bellgrove into Glasgow then it requires a collection from a ticket machine, but to elsewhere you can get a ticket to show in the app. The Trainsplit app seems to show eTickets for Glasgow. I haven't checked any others.

ScotRail staff are generally pragmatic in these sorts of situations and advising you about how you should have bought a ticket isn't unreasonable; I'm not sure being on the receiving end of that conversation is ever going to feel super comfortable.

I agree with your implied point about being sold a ticket on the train without any comment. The new app has been that problematic that I suspect many staff have long given up considering charging a minimum fare on the train, especially where they have little backup if someone becomes upset about that. That doesn't help the passenger who now thinks that buying on the train is the norm.

Just in case you are visiting other parts of the UK, be mindful that almost everywhere requires a ticket before you travel. Outside of Scotland penalty fares are much higher, and the train company might decide to prosecute you instead - something that effectively doesn't happen in Scotland.

Ok, there are other threads in this forum covering this update already, but here is some local reporting instead:

ScotRail met with anger after scrapping digital tickets at East End station

ScotRail has been met with anger after scrapping digital tickets at an East End station.

www.glasgowtimes.co.uk

The key thing is that you can’t hop on the train and then after the fact tell the ScotRail app that you started your journey there and collect an e-ticket, you always have to collect the physical tickets from the machine at the station, which you mention. The restriction is not labelled or documented in the app itself, it just blocks you from completing the purchase in a way that looks like a glitch, in a summer where all you could find were people complaining about this new app.

However, Tap and Go does still permit you to use the phone to buy something valid for travel without needing to collect from the physical machine, and it does use the phones gps to verify your location to automatically work out your starting station (which is not allowed to be overridden), which might be why it’s not been blocked.

The experience here was that I was not aware the tap and go app existed until day 3.
Day 1, tried the ScotRail app, Bellgrove was blocked, initially thought it was my card, then bought from guard, day 2 was this experience, then I met someone who said to try the tap and go app (who knew someone who had worked on it). Downloaded app, was allowed to purchase using using that app for Bellgrove and GQS for day 3 without needing to collect from the machine but that app uses the phone gps (and you can find information from the app maker describing this technology here: https://www.investegate.co.uk/index...l-expands-tap-pay-smart-ticketing-app/8710486 )

Re the rest of the network: a unstaffed station having a penalty fare was pretty rare in england and Wales even 20 years ago, and it’s gradually crept in over time. My main objection was the placement and size of the penalty fare sign at the station - the sign was so large and at an angle that obstructed the view of the station platform so determining if there was a ticket machine as a non local traveller was not helpful. A simple “ticket machine” sign visible from the same point would have worked. The human factors design work that goes into safety on a platform is not applied for revenue protection (and frankly it’s best being used on safety).

So I appreciate that “georestricted purchase” is conflating the above set of stuff together, but from a passenger point of view that is the overall outcome - that you can’t buy a “phone based” fare from Bellgrove to GQS unless you either collect the fare from the machine or instead download the separate tap and go app and grant the app access to your location via your phone gps.