Northern fake "Compulsory Reservations" Trial

[skyhigh]

From 10/10/26, Northern are 'trialling' compulsory reservations on the Leeds-Nottingham/Lincoln services.

From the 10th October Northern will be conducting a trial on our Leeds – Nottingham/Lincoln services to improve our forward-looking demand insights and provide further commercial levers to influence demand and mitigate crowding.
Today, we only receive detailed booking information for customers purchasing Advance tickets.
While walk-up tickets can be bought right up until departure, we have limited visibility of which services customers intend to travel on before they arrive at the station.
As part of this trial, walk-up ticket availability will be linked to train capacity. When a train reaches its available capacity, it will be shown as sold out across retail channels. This will provide better insight into anticipated demand, helping us make more informed decisions around capacity planning, revenue management and customer information.

This will result in trains with no reservations remaining showing as sold out in journey planners.

The change is showing in Real-time trains:

(Image shows RealTimeTrains screenshot with the "reservation compulsory" tag)

 

[Bletchleyite]

What an utterly ridiculous idea!

What next, seat reservations on the Bakerloo Line?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

we have limited visibility of which services customers intend to travel on before they arrive at the station.

Do Northern not get told by the retailers which itineraries are sold?
Putting compulsory reservations feels like a bad solution when anyone wanting to use a walkup ticket could buy one on BRFares, at a ticket office, or using quick buy on one of their TVMs without getting an itinerary.

Not like Northern could really do much about capacity anyway until Leeds 17 is lengthened.

And don't Northern 195s have on board passenger counting? That feels like a far easier solution

 

[ainsworth74]

Well, this is certainly on the more barmy end of the scale of ideas...

I'm looking forward to the first Penalty Fare that comes through with someone on an Anytime but doesn't have a reservation for the right service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, this is certainly on the more barmy end of the scale of ideas...

I'm looking forward to the first Penalty Fare that comes through with someone on an Anytime but doesn't have a reservation for the right service.

In all seriousness this really needs some sorting out in terms of the flag that is used to do this. Among the many negative consequences will be InterRail passengers who don't know better being charged for reservations on these services.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 11:02 ==

And don't Northern 195s have on board passenger counting? That feels like a far easier solution

I suspect what they're really going for is putting people off using known overcrowded 2 car services by claiming it's sold out. Isn't Leeds-Nottingham one of those services that really needs to be much longer but can't be due to the bay platform it uses at Leeds limiting it to 2 car?

 

[ainsworth74]

In all seriousness this really needs some sorting out in terms of the flag that is used to do this. Among the many negative consequences will be InterRail passengers who don't know better being charged for reservations on these services.

Yeah the widespread abuse of the reservation system to implement things that various TOCs want to do but don't have the gumption to do properly really does need stamping down on.

 

[Peterthegreat]

A couple of things.
1) I can't find anything on Northern's website about this.
2) if it's exactly like it says in the OP then it is a sure fire way of losing revenue.
Anyone turning up at intermediate stations (many are unstaffed) and trying to buy a ticket for a service shown as "sold out" will either give up or join the train anyway and probably get away without paying.
Totally idiotic.
A third point.
If someone reserves Meadowhall to Sheffield that will prevent anyone else reserving Leeds to Nottingham for example.

 

[MrJeeves]

This is hilarious.

Nothing else can describe it.

 

[318266]

When a train reaches its available capacity, it will be shown as sold out across retail channels.

I'm curious how the capacity is calculated here - just seats, or some standing room too?

 

[TUC]

That’s OK Northern. We’ll just buy a ticket for a different journey, but which is valid for the ‘full’ train, and enjoy disregarding your plan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm curious how the capacity is calculated here - just seats, or some standing room too?

Judging by the fact Northern sell Advances on trains where there aren't enough seats I suspect it's quite high.

Another problem it will cause is with bicycles - marking a train reservations compulsory means if you try to get an itinerary with bicycle reservations it will insist on getting them on the compulsory reservation train too or it won't book the through itinerary with a bicycle. I bet they haven't thought of that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 11:39 ==

That’s OK Northern. We’ll just buy a ticket for a different journey, but which is valid for the ‘full’ train, and enjoy disregarding your plan.

Or use brfares.com.

 

[Mike395]

Even France, the king of unnecessary compulsory reservations, doesn't quota control on their local services. Just utterly daft.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Looks like Leeds-Nottingham services are showing as compulsory reservations the whole way, but Lincoln-Leeds is only 'compulsory' between Sheffield and Lincoln.

 

[Snow1964]

This will provide better insight into anticipated demand, helping us make more informed decisions around capacity planning, revenue management and customer information.

Insight into Anticipated demand - ok, collect information

decisions around capacity planning - if they spot busy (perhaps because event on somewhere) will they actually react and lengthen trains

revenue management - if a train is shown out, and no one can buy a ticket, then data on remaining potential ticket sales doesn't exist, so this won't work

customer information - what info can they give out, train is busy, and so is next one, and one after..... and we have F-all to add capacity.

Beyond a joke, comical idea that will just make things worse for intending passengers. And of course if reservations are compulsory, then not operating the service is borderline breach of passenger contract

 

[Dewedin]

This is complete nonsense but we've come to expect plenty of that from the nationalised railway. Ticket scan data should be all they need to achieve what they're aiming for, if that is really all they're aiming for.

 

[tomoufc]

Just had to check this thread didn’t start on 1st of April

 

[MrJeeves]

That’s OK Northern. We’ll just buy a ticket for a different journey, but which is valid for the ‘full’ train, and enjoy disregarding your plan.

Even better -- it scuppers their data collection entirely!

 

[signed]

Even France, the king of unnecessary compulsory reservations, doesn't quota control on their local services. Just utterly daft.

Depends

You definitely have quota control on most TERs out/in Paris as most are mandatory reservation with dynamic pricing

And even those that aren't mandatory rezos can have quota control on the retailer side during peak travel days (first hand experience on the Paris-Tours TERs that aren't mandatory rezo yet show as full on bank holiday weekends). The only way to travel is to find an dumb (with the satisfying green button click-wheel) ticket machine that will sell you a ticket without intineary.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is complete nonsense but we've come to expect plenty of that from the nationalised railway. Ticket scan data should be all they need to achieve what they're aiming for, if that is really all they're aiming for.

I suspect what they're *really* aiming for is managing loading on those 2 car services that really need to be 4 but can't be due to operational constraints i.e. platform lengths.

 

[Adam Williams]

Didn't bother informing retailers. Perhaps they knew how something else that increases costs by requiring additional RARS queries would be received?

provide further commercial levers to influence demand and mitigate crowding

Read: surge pricing.

It is very clear from the justification that none of this has any passenger benefit and is entirely for revenue management convenience. Presumably they can't be bothered to count how many people are on trains or scan tickets.

Today, we only receive detailed booking information for customers purchasing Advance tickets.

Not remotely true.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Read: surge pricing.

But that can be done by going for a LNER style fare structure, it doesn't require compulsory reservations, you simply price walk up fares so high that basically nobody buys them. Not that that's good either, but this scheme doesn't do that.

Unless you mean using quotas to wilfully have off peak fares not come up on off peak trains where they are actually valid, but that's outright fraud.

 

[signed]

Unless you mean using quotas to wilfully have off peak fares not come up on off peak trains where they are actually valid, but that's outright fraud.

The cynical is that this is what is going to happen

 

[Bletchleyite]

The cynical is that this is what is going to happen

I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised if that was the way the non-urban regional railway did go, and the upcoming TPE trial points further that way. But it doesn't require the compulsory reservation flag to be set to do it. You just have to remove all walk up fares bar the Anytime Day Single and crank that up a bit.

 

[signed]

I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised if that was the way the non-urban regional railway did go, and the upcoming TPE trial points further that way. But it doesn't require the compulsory reservation flag to be set to do it. You just have to remove all walk up fares bar the Anytime Day Single and crank that up a bit.

That’s way too obvious

The railway motto is to sneak things in hoping people don’t realize

 

[Ben Rhydding]

How is this compulsory reseservation going to be enforced? What are they going to do if a passenger has a valid ticket but no reservation?

 

[signed]

How is this compulsory reseservation going to be enforced? What are they going to do if a passenger has a valid ticket but no reservation?

Probably just not like on LNER or Avanti

 

[MrJeeves]

Unless you mean using quotas to wilfully have off peak fares not come up on off peak trains where they are actually valid, but that's outright fraud.

Not yet, but Northern haven't set up first class ticket types for their trains, so anyone wanting to buy a First Class flexible ticket with Northern as a connecting TOC now can't buy the ticket.



They have also forgotten about the existence of their own Duo tickets, which are not set up in the reservations system for their trains either so now cannot be bought.

 

[Sorcerer]

I can be quite confident in saying that the results of this trial will not produce results in favour of compulsory reservations. To an extent I can understand them on long-distance intercity trains which only serve major stations that always have ticket offices and might be more catered towards the business and leisure traveller than commuters, but even then I don't really agree. Compulsory reservations on a local stopping service will probably be about as useless as they are daft.

 

[Adam Williams]

Not yet, but Northern haven't set up first class ticket types for their trains, so anyone wanting to buy a First Class flexible ticket with Northern as a connecting TOC now can't buy the ticket.


They have also forgotten about the existence of their own Duo tickets, which are not set up in the reservations system for their trains either so now cannot be bought.

Are they completely stupid?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can be quite confident in saying that the results of this trial will not produce results in favour of compulsory reservations. To an extent I can understand them on long-distance intercity trains which only serve major stations that always have ticket offices and might be more catered towards the business and leisure traveller than commuters, but even then I don't really agree. Compulsory reservations on a local stopping service will probably be about as useless as they are daft.

For clarity, this isn't compulsory reservations but rather fake compulsory reservations a la LNER/Avanti. It is probably better described as quota control on ticket sales.

The only UK domestic train to have enforced compulsory reservations is the Caledonian Sleeper.