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Liverpool to Llandudno TfW 2 car trains on bank holiday

frodshamfella

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How many units are required for the Liverpool - Llandudno diagrams? I'm guessing 5?
It would have been better to have kept the 2 units on Liverpool-Chester and use the other 3 units to make 3 more Manchester diagrams 5 cars and split them at Llandudno Junction for town and Holyhead. Then introduce the Liverpool to Llandudno service when more units become available through south cascades.
I think passengers from Liverpool have waited far long enough for a direct service. TFW promised it years ago, its only just come to fruition. As far as I know the LCR contributed for the Halton Curve to be fully functional . So it should definitely be running. Liverpool is the largest big city to North Wales, its a logical and historic link that needed to be restored.
 
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Djgr

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I think passengers from Liverpool have waited far long enough for a direct service. TFW promised it years ago, its only just come to fruition. As far as I know the LCR contributed for the Halton Curve to be fully functional . So it should definitely be running. Liverpool is the largest big city to North Wales, its a logical and historic link that needed to be restored.
Absolutely.
 

dk1

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One would expect when purchasing a brand new train that the toilet would be reliable. Sadly thats something train manufacturers find impossible to achieve, as well as CAF finding it difficult to achieve with their trains in general.
Toilets are rarely out of action on Stadler 755 fleet here in the wonderful world of GA. The UAT on these units are the most reliable I have ever known.
 

Harpo

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Toilets are rarely out of action on Stadler 755 fleet here in the wonderful world of GA. The UAT on these units are the most reliable I have ever known.
The wisdom of GA in avoiding CAF eh? If only the answer was ‘Stadler’ everywhere.
 

Krokodil

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Toilets are rarely out of action on Stadler 755 fleet here in the wonderful world of GA. The UAT on these units are the most reliable I have ever known.
Likewise I rarely come across a broken bog when travelling on 80x. 197 toilets however are dreadfully tempermental.
 

frodshamfella

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Travelled from Frodsham to Liverpool on Saturday just gone. Two car train, heaving, standing throughout . I caught the 12.56 , which arrived about 6 mins late. After Runcorn the train travelled quite slowly, using platform 4 at South Parkway, which seems quite commonplace for the TFW these days which seems to make progress slower generally. After LSP the train just crawled all the way to Lime Street, no idea why, and no explanation from train staff, resulting with an arrival around 13.53. Mad rush for me as needed to be somewhere for 14.00, thanks to great taxi driver I made it, but not a great travel experience on Saturday afternoon.

The return early evening was also very busy, and slightly late departing from Lime Street, but the journey itself was much better.
 

Sheridan

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Travelled from Frodsham to Liverpool on Saturday just gone. Two car train, heaving, standing throughout . I caught the 12.56 , which arrived about 6 mins late. After Runcorn the train travelled quite slowly, using platform 4 at South Parkway, which seems quite commonplace for the TFW these days which seems to make progress slower generally. After LSP the train just crawled all the way to Lime Street, no idea why, and no explanation from train staff, resulting with an arrival around 13.53. Mad rush for me as needed to be somewhere for 14.00, thanks to great taxi driver I made it, but not a great travel experience on Saturday afternoon.

The return early evening was also very busy, and slightly late departing from Lime Street, but the journey itself was much better.

The timing from Runcorn to South Parkway is generous and if things are on time it’ll still have a 2-3 minute dwell at South Parkway. Once on the slow from there then crawling is pretty much the norm, it’s 30 almost all the way from there. If there’s a late Northern stopper then this will usually be put ahead too because if the TfW arrives first the platforming doesn’t work. The EMR is scheduled to leave on the fast line 2 minutes before the TfW and if that’s late (which it very often is) then the TfW will follow it all the way in.

Basically there’s loads that can delay the TfW from South Parkway onwards and almost none of it is in the control of TfW. Having said that it’s rare to be as much as 21 minutes late.
 

frodshamfella

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The timing from Runcorn to South Parkway is generous and if things are on time it’ll still have a 2-3 minute dwell at South Parkway. Once on the slow from there then crawling is pretty much the norm, it’s 30 almost all the way from there. If there’s a late Northern stopper then this will usually be put ahead too because if the TfW arrives first the platforming doesn’t work. The EMR is scheduled to leave on the fast line 2 minutes before the TfW and if that’s late (which it very often is) then the TfW will follow it all the way in.

Basically there’s loads that can delay the TfW from South Parkway onwards and almost none of it is in the control of TfW. Having said that it’s rare to be as much as 21 minutes late.

Interesting I have used the service for a long time, and it has certainly deteriorated since being moved to stop at platform 4 at LSP. Many passengers were moaning about the extremely slow progress . Incidentally isn't 30 mph , super slow ?
 
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Sheridan

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Interesting I have used the service for a long time, and it has certainly deteriorated since being moved to stop at platform 4 at LSP. Many passengers were moaning about the extremely slow progress . Incidentally isn't 30 mph , super slow ?

It is slow, yes! It’s 75 to begin with but comes down to 30 at West Allerton and remains 30 til after Mossley Hill. Then it’s back up to 75 but that’s not far from the next 30 at Wavertree Junction, and then it’s 30 all the way to Lime Street. If you’re behind a stopper or having to wait on the slow line for something to go in front at Wavertree then it’ll feel even slower.

One of the issues is that trains coming from Hunts Cross can only access platform 2 at Parkway. Thus the TfW is the prime candidate to be moved over to 4. The only way to avoid this would be a timetable recast.
 

frodshamfella

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It is slow, yes! It’s 75 to begin with but comes down to 30 at West Allerton and remains 30 til after Mossley Hill. Then it’s back up to 75 but that’s not far from the next 30 at Wavertree Junction, and then it’s 30 all the way to Lime Street. If you’re behind a stopper or having to wait on the slow line for something to go in front at Wavertree then it’ll feel even slower.

One of the issues is that trains coming from Hunts Cross can only access platform 2 at Parkway. Thus the TfW is the prime candidate to be moved over to 4. The only way to avoid this would be a timetable recast.
Do you know why it is so slow ? Signalling or track ? I think the overcrowding issue on TFW is because they just seem short of rolling stock. Although sometimes the Llandudno - Liverpool is 3 cars.
 

Djgr

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Do you know why it is so slow ? Signalling or track ? I think the overcrowding issue on TFW is because they just seem short of rolling stock. Although sometimes the Llandudno - Liverpool is 3 cars.
Wait until you get on a 2 car from Chester to Cardiff!!
 

ayubdaud

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Travelled from Frodsham to Liverpool on Saturday just gone. Two car train, heaving, standing throughout . I caught the 12.56 , which arrived about 6 mins late. After Runcorn the train travelled quite slowly, using platform 4 at South Parkway, which seems quite commonplace for the TFW these days which seems to make progress slower generally. After LSP the train just crawled all the way to Lime Street, no idea why, and no explanation from train staff, resulting with an arrival around 13.53. Mad rush for me as needed to be somewhere for 14.00, thanks to great taxi driver I made it, but not a great travel experience on Saturday afternoon.

The return early evening was also very busy, and slightly late departing from Lime Street, but the journey itself was much better.
They are platform 4 at South Parkway to avoid interacting with the EMR arriving from Hunts Cross. Usually that's late so just gives a little bit of flexibility to avoid them blocking each other. On this occasion looks like 2F97 (Northern stopper) was 13 mins late to South Parkway and you were stuck behind it. Both that stopper and your train got stopped at Edge Hill because of some class 5 movement around there. Because of the line up of trains I don't think TfW can gain much without a full retime as they basically just follow a load of other paths.
 

Krokodil

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I don't remember being on a 195 or 196 with faulty toilets. There is clearly a maintenance issue.
I don't think so. It's a poor design, and a lot of the issues seem to be down to software.

Interesting I have used the service for a long time, and it has certainly deteriorated since being moved to stop at platform 4 at LSP. Many passengers were moaning about the extremely slow progress . Incidentally isn't 30 mph , super slow ?
The Castlefield Taskforce really shafted the TfW service. It's a dreadfully slow path compared with the original, and Lime Street is badly congested.

I think the overcrowding issue on TFW is because they just seem short of rolling stock.
2 coaches was always the plan for Llandudno-Liverpool. Inevitably dropping Llandudno down from the three coaches it used to get, to two coaches now (at a time when the station has seen traffic growing) means that trains remain rammed all the way in during the summer.
 

XFeed

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Are the doors any less temperamental yet?

I`m sorry I cant answer that question as I am not involved with 197s now but they were a pain from the very beginning. I can't remember how many hours I have spent on toilet and toilet door issues and I do have a video of one of the many problems but I can't find it right now.
You could re set up the door again and then carry out a door cycle test which involved a continuous automated 100 door cycle test of opening and closing and it pass with no issues but as soon as it was in service it spat its dummy out.
 

Krokodil

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I`m sorry I cant answer that question as I am not involved with 197s now but they were a pain from the very beginning. I can't remember how many hours I have spent on toilet and toilet door issues and I do have a video of one of the many problems but I can't find it right now.
You could re set up the door again and then carry out a door cycle test which involved a continuous automated 100 door cycle test of opening and closing and it pass with no issues but as soon as it was in service it spat its dummy out.
I remember one which would start to slide open (hopefully only if unlocked) if there was some cant, and go "thump, thump, thump" as it repeatedly closed and slid back open before the breaker tripped.
 

childwallblues

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The extension of the service from Chester to Llandudno in May has I think exceeded TfWs wildest dreams passenger wise. Towns on the coast were always popular destinations for Liverpool people so a through train for a day trip was always going to be a winner.
 

frodshamfella

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The extension of the service from Chester to Llandudno in May has I think exceeded TfWs wildest dreams passenger wise. Towns on the coast were always popular destinations for Liverpool people so a through train for a day trip was always going to be a winner.
They just need to provide the required capacity !!
 

Rail Quest

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The extension of the service from Chester to Llandudno in May has I think exceeded TfWs wildest dreams passenger wise. Towns on the coast were always popular destinations for Liverpool people so a through train for a day trip was always going to be a winner.
They just need to provide the required capacity !!
Now that we're out of summer and into the colder months, could this possibly provide some respite from the capacity issues if a lot of the passengers were off to the coast for day trips? Obviously not a solution to the problem, but could make travelling on the North Wales route more bearable, if so, for the next few months.
 

Djgr

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Now that we're out of summer and into the colder months, could this possibly provide some respite from the capacity issues if a lot of the passengers were off to the coast for day trips? Obviously not a solution to the problem, but could make travelling on the North Wales route more bearable, if so, for the next few months.
We will have to wait and see. I don't think all the traffic is going Liverpool to North Wales.
 

mmh

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We will have to wait and see. I don't think all the traffic is going Liverpool to North Wales.
It isn't. It's a bit of a common myth on here that the only people going to/from Llandudno are from Liverpool. Llandudno's the main town in North Wales, the trains will be busy regardless of whether they go to Manchester or Liverpool.

We were assured years ago that the reduced capacity of 197s compared to previous trains wouldn't be an issue, as they'd all be running around in multiple. That didn't happen, and that's the problem.
 

Bletchleyite

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It isn't. It's a bit of a common myth on here that the only people going to/from Llandudno are from Liverpool. Llandudno's the main town in North Wales, the trains will be busy regardless of whether they go to Manchester or Liverpool.

However there was always suppressed demand from Liverpool because of the double change* (unless you were on the Wirral Line towards Chester, people there will no doubt continue to go that way). That demand will now be coming back onto the TfW service.

* Northern Line to Lime St isn't a double change in practice, it's about 7 minutes' brisk walk from platform to platform, using the Loop line to do it is only for enthusiasts and those of very limited mobility, or when it's absolutely throwing it down. It makes about as much sense as would taking the Tube from Kings Cross to St Pancras if that was even possible.

We were assured years ago that the reduced capacity of 197s compared to previous trains wouldn't be an issue, as they'd all be running around in multiple. That didn't happen, and that's the problem.

Reliability (of both the 197s and 230s, the latter meaning 2 car 197s have to deputise) is the issue there. I believe 2 cars were indeed only meant to run singly on the quieter bits i.e. Conwy Valley (though in summer that's getting closer to needing 3 now), west of Machynlleth and west of Swansea.
 

frodshamfella

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Now that we're out of summer and into the colder months, could this possibly provide some respite from the capacity issues if a lot of the passengers were off to the coast for day trips? Obviously not a solution to the problem, but could make travelling on the North Wales route more bearable, if so, for the next few months.
I was heading to Liverpool city centre so the demand is to the coast and to the city for shopping, entertainment etc. Also airport passengers alighting at LSP.
 

Krokodil

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The extension of the service from Chester to Llandudno in May has I think exceeded TfWs wildest dreams passenger wise. Towns on the coast were always popular destinations for Liverpool people so a through train for a day trip was always going to be a winner.
Everyone familiar with the line could see what was coming. Trains were already rammed, adding capacity by improving frequency rather than lengthening trains just resulted in three rammed trains per hour rather than two.

Now that we're out of summer and into the colder months, could this possibly provide some respite from the capacity issues
Weekends will still be bad, especially in the run-up to Christmas. Sundays are still running with little more than the service inherited from FNW. I can't spot any improvements in the Dec 26 Sunday timetable either.

However there was always suppressed demand from Liverpool because of the double change
I'm not sure how many were put off by that. I know however that for years the fares policy deliberately suppressed demand by removing the Off Peak Day Return, the Anytime Day Return, and the Small Group Day tickets between anywhere west of Abergele and Chester. This produced a few artefacts: you can buy a SGD from Llandudno Junction to Wrexham (which will probably involve passing through Chester) but not one to Chester any more. For a few years a Llandudno to Liverpool Off Peak Day Return remained in the system even though no form of Day Return remained to Chester.

For passengers travelling between Rhyl and Chester (among other flows), the introduction of PAYG does significantly remove the demand suppression caused by the previously high prices so this will undoubtedly make the capacity crunch worse.

On top of which, even before the timetable changes demand was growing anyway. Many stations on the coast were at least 30% above their pre-pandemic peaks in the 24/25 financial year.

I believe 2 cars were indeed only meant to run singly on the quieter bits i.e. Conwy Valley (though in summer that's getting closer to needing 3 now), west of Machynlleth and west of Swansea.
Llandudno to Liverpool was always intended to be two coaches between Llandudno and Chester. It would have combined there with the Cardiff-Liverpool service that was subsequently abandoned.

The Holyhead-Shrewsbury leg of Holyhead-Birmingham was also to be two coaches. This proposal was described as "madness" by a Controller in an internal discussion and eventually a compromise was reached where the service was truncated at Llandudno Junction, formed of four coaches, and the Manchester services were extended from Bangor to Holyhead to compensate (which did at least result in a slightly better service for Holyhead and Llanfair PG than would otherwise have happened).
 

childwallblues

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Prestatyn to Llandudno Junction is caravan land and lots of people from the North West own on these sites. Not all have access to a car so rely on public transport alighting from the train at places at Rhyl to get the frequent number 12 along the coast towards Llandudno. Travel to their caravan will continue until the site closes/reopens during the winter period,
 

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