Manchester Metrolink second city crossing

[shinkansen1966]

I like the picture of the First single decker bus on page 7 of the report
http://www.tfgm.com/Metrolink2cc/pdfs/2CC-Consultation-Brochure-020611.pdf

To what extent does TfGM run buses like TfL does in London ?

 

[radamfi]

Deregulation applies in Greater Manchester just like everywhere else outside London. TfGM pays for tendered services to fill in the gaps in the commercial network, administers concessionary fares, coordinates information and manages bus stations.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Deregulation applies in Greater Manchester just like everywhere else outside London. TfGM pays for tendered services to fill in the gaps in the commercial network, administers concessionary fares, coordinates information and manages bus stations.

What a mess. I want to see TfGM lobby the government hard to have the same powers, duties and responsibilities as TfL.

WestYorkshire transport authority is already embarking on this process. Think we've discussed this before. :roll:

 

[radamfi]

TfGM has slightly more powers than the other PTE areas in they have now acquired some highway powers and conurbation wide transport planning responsibilities. Arguably they, along with the other PTE areas, enjoy more control over local National Rail services than TfL. But of course they have very limited control over buses. However, they seem to have less appetite for Quality Contracts compared to all the other PTEs except West Midlands where the PTE seems to have a very cosy relationship with National Express West Midlands. TfGM seem to have their hands full with the Metrolink expansion so I can't see them getting interested in QCs for at least 3-4 years. By then hopefully there will be a better economic situation and maybe a new government making QCs a more realistic prospect.

 

[WatcherZero]

They do own a fair number green and yellow buses and lease them to the bus companies to run the routes.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Whilst we're on the subject of Manchester Metrolink, just been on their website.
http://www.metrolink.co.uk/tramtimes/
Can't seem to find actual timetable. For instance, I may need to travel Bury to Manchester Piccadilly one Sunday evening. All it says is 'every 15 mins', but there's no actual timetable. I am missing something ?

Nor can I find actual fares. Again, I am missing something ?

Confused of North London

 

[Nym]

They don't publish either, you can find exact times on transportdirect.info though. Fares, all rip off expensive...

 

[radamfi]

Whilst we're on the subject of Manchester Metrolink, just been on their website.
http://www.metrolink.co.uk/tramtimes/
Can't seem to find actual timetable. For instance, I may need to travel Bury to Manchester Piccadilly one Sunday evening. All it says is 'every 15 mins', but there's no actual timetable. I am missing something ?

Nor can I find actual fares. Again, I am missing something ?

Confused of North London

The lack of a Metrolink timetable has been a sore point since opening in 1992. All you have is first and last trains. Metrolink consider their service 'turn up and ride' so they don't think you need a timetable and they think 15 minutes is an acceptable time to wait. However, you can get actual times from Traveline.

Fares are available from

http://www.metrolink.co.uk/tickets/ticketselector/index.asp

 

[shinkansen1966]

Metrolink consider their service 'turn up and ride'

With those frequencies, more like 'turn and up and wait'. Thanks for the links. There's a point to point fares calculator but no fares chart.

They may be complicated, but at least you can see London's fares at a glance.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx

A self contained urban transit system which is unable to provide either a timetable or fares chart. Great stuff.

 

[WatcherZero]

They did publish a pocket timetable until the middle of the last decade. Fares are there on the fare finder, enter journey and it tells you the fare. They no longer produce a public timetable as with services close together offering combined high frequency even at night and the possibility of traffic causing delays it just opens them up to accusations of being late when their trying to operate a clockwork timetable not a specified one anyway. If you really want to know the timetables they are in the Traveline Journey planner.

Tfl Publishing a table of 700 seperate fares (not including another 300 in season tickets) is faster to lookup?

 

[snail]

They don't publish either, you can find exact times on transportdirect.info though. Fares, all rip off expensive...

If you want timetables, they are on Traveline. Ignore the reference to 'bus number' and put in these codes-

MET1 = Altrincham-Bury
MET2 = Eccles line
MET3 = South Manchester Line (Chorlton/St Werburgh's)

It's £4 to travel on the system all day. Return fares vary by line.

 

[shinkansen1966]

If you want timetables, they are on Traveline. Ignore the reference to 'bus number' and put in these codes-

MET1 = Altrincham-Bury
MET2 = Eccles line
MET3 = South Manchester Line (Chorlton/St Werburgh's)

It's £4 to travel on the system all day. Return fares vary by line.

Thanks for that. Sunday evening departures from Bury appear to go at 12,27, 42, 57. You'd never know that from Metrolink's own web site.

 

[futureA]

Fares, all rip off expensive...

Of course the reason why Metrolink fares seem expensive compared to trains is because it receives no operating subsidy and has to make a profit.

Should it receive a subsidy? Well the tube does, so I think there is a good case for subsidising Metrolink as well.

 

[ivanhoe]

Of course the reason why Metrolink fares seem expensive compared to trains is because it receives no operating subsidy and has to make a profit.

Should it receive a subsidy? Well the tube does, so I think there is a good case for subsidising Metrolink as well.

Whilst I sympathize with your point, you would also have to throw the Buses in as well. There are many parts of GTR Manchester where the tram does not serve.

 

[radamfi]

Metrolink appears to be crowded on the Bury/Altrincham lines a lot of the time and passes through relatively affluent areas so I can see why fares are rather high and poorly integrated, even though I don't agree with it. It will be interesting to see what fares they charge on the Oldham/Rochdale line given the lower income areas it goes through.

Social commentators often say that it is perverse that rail gets a lot of subsidy whereas commercial bus services get nothing apart from BSOG and concessionary fares reimbursement because poorer people use buses and rail travel is relatively middle class.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Metrolink appears to be crowded on the Bury/Altrincham lines a lot of the time and passes through relatively affluent areas so I can see why fares are rather high and poorly integrated, even though I don't agree with it.

I will cite you an example concerning a friend who lived in West Timperley and commuted from Timperley station to Manchester Oxford Road station. At the time the station closed for conversion to Metrolink, a weekly rail ticket cost just over £12.00. When Metrolink commenced, the weekly fare had increased to over £17.00.

At that time, Arriva had a weekly ticket on the 263 bus for £5.00. My friend decided that leaving earlier to catch the bus was worth the saving of over £12.00 per week. He was not the only one, by any means, who did this.

 

[shinkansen1966]

I will cite you an example concerning a friend who lived in West Timperley and commuted from Timperley station to Manchester Oxford Road station. At the time the station closed for conversion to Metrolink, a weekly rail ticket cost just over £12.00. When Metrolink commenced, the weekly fare had increased to over £17.00.

At that time, Arriva had a weekly ticket on the 263 bus for £5.00. My friend decided that leaving earlier to catch the bus was worth the saving of over £12.00 per week. He was not the only one, by any means, who did this.

With a price differential like that, I can understand why people would switch from tram to bus.

Shame Manchester could not some of London's fares structure

• zonal fares for trains/Tubes
• one zone for buses and trams with one flat fare, one travelcard price

Or at least adopt a zonal fare structure with buses and trams treated as one.

 

[table38]

You can't even buy through tickets at the moment, eg. Stalybridge to Bury

And you can bet there's a Bury tram sat in the undercroft ready to leave just before I can buy a Metrolink ticket!

Maybe we need an Integrated Transport Policy

 

[shinkansen1966]

Maybe we need an Integrated Transport Policy

The current government thinks not.

The Commission for Integrated Transport was scrapped in October 2010.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110304132839/http:/cfit.independent.gov.uk/

But at least motorists had a freeze in fuel duty, which was nice.

 

[radamfi]

With a price differential like that, I can understand why people would switch from tram to bus.

Shame Manchester could not some of London's fares structure

• zonal fares for trains/Tubes
• one zone for buses and trams with one flat fare, one travelcard price

Or at least adopt a zonal fare structure with buses and trams treated as one.

Even London's fare system has some quirks. Depending on whether a direct bus exists can affect patronage quite dramatically. For example, bus 25 carries huge loads, partly because it is possible to travel for a mere £1.30 single between Ilford, Stratford, Mile End to Liverpool Street and Oxford Circus. Some passengers are making trips not possible by train/tube but many could be using the parallel train/tube lines. This corridor is relatively impoverished so the lower cost bus service is popular. If a typical European fare system was introduced, it would be no more expensive to use the train/tube meaning fewer long distance passengers on route 25.

On the other hand, a single off-peak tube journey can be a lot cheaper than taking the bus if the comparative bus journey involves changes.

 

[WatcherZero]

You can't even buy through tickets at the moment, eg. Stalybridge to Bury

And you can bet there's a Bury tram sat in the undercroft ready to leave just before I can buy a Metrolink ticket!

Maybe we need an Integrated Transport Policy

Yes you can, morning peak £6.40 falling to £6.10 offpeak on ticket websites or from ticket office, National Rail Enquiries doesnt show it which is why you may not be aware. Metrolink ticket machines outside the City Centre zone allow you to buy through tickets to any rail station in GM too.

 

[table38]

Yes you can, morning peak £6.40 falling to £6.10 offpeak on ticket websites or from ticket office, National Rail Enquiries doesnt show it which is why you may not be aware. Metrolink ticket machines outside the City Centre zone allow you to buy through tickets to any rail station in GM too.

Thanks, that's where I've gone wrong - I tried a Metrolink TVM probably at St Peters Square (and the TVM at Stalybridge), so had assumed the ticket didn't exist.

I'll certainly get one of these from the Ticket Office next time I'm heading in an ELRwardly direction.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Some passengers are making trips not possible by train/tube but many could be using the parallel train/tube lines. This corridor is relatively impoverished so the lower cost bus service is popular..

On the other hand, a single off-peak tube journey can be a lot cheaper than taking the bus if the comparative bus journey involves changes.

This is how I work things out before travelling across London. Either one through bus or one long tube trip, regardless of changes. With the off peak Oyster tube fares typically around £1.90, it can be more economic than multiple bus trips.

It would be asking too much if we had a flat bus fare of £1.30 and valid for an hour, regardless of the number of changes en route.

 

[radamfi]

For some reason it has become British/Irish tradition that you always pay when you get on another bus, unless you have a return, day ticket or season ticket. Even America does free transfers!

 

[185]

the time the station closed for conversion to Metrolink..... ....At that time, Arriva had a weekly ticket on the 263 bus for £5.00. My friend decided that leaving earlier to catch the bus was worth the saving of over £12.00 per week. He was not the only one, by any means, who did this.

Twas GM Buses South, at the time who were at war with my former employer MTL who were dessimating the 263. Little bit of payback for invading Birkenhead

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Twas GM Buses South, at the time who were at war with my former employer MTL who were decimating the 263. Little bit of payback for invading Birkenhead

I think that in those days, a certain "Manchester" based bus company tried to run a service from Liverpool to Netherley with buses that were over-painted pale blue and white, but this ceased when a "truce and amnesty" was sensibly declared.

Does anyone remember the only legitimate Manchester to Liverpool service, the number 34 that ran from the Arndale Bus Station, via Leigh.
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TfGM have written to affected parties to inform them that due to the construction works, a weight limit of 7.5 tonnes will be continue to be enforced on Richmond Street railway bridge and signage will be in place throughout.

 

[radamfi]

Twas GM Buses South, at the time who were at war with my former employer MTL who were dessimating the 263. Little bit of payback for invading Birkenhead

Who started that war? MTL or GMN/GMS? You will probably find that the blue buses in Birkenhead were in retaliation to earlier aggression from MTL.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does anyone remember the only legitimate Manchester to Liverpool service, the number 34 that ran from the Arndale Bus Station, via Leigh.

GM Buses operated it with Express liveried Olympians like:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/46341292@N05/5188347560/

Before deregulation there was a 39 which was a similar route but stopped at all stops.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

GM Buses operated it with Express liveried Olympians like:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/46341292@N05/5188347560/

Before deregulation there was a 39 which was a similar route but stopped at all stops.

You certainly are bringing back memories to me with the mention of the 39 service to Liverpool. If my memory serves me right, it left from a road under the bridge section under the platform 11 Manchester Victoria to Manchester Exchange, that came out near the Salford Corporation "Victoria Bridge" bus station on the other side of the River Irwell, opposite Manchester Cathedral.

The site of this former bus station and much of the redundant Manchester Exchange station site is scheduled for the site for the Greengate Embankment project, which is a joint development between Ask Developments and Network Rail.

 

[radamfi]

I was curious about the 39 as a kid as I used to get the 17 from Rochdale which terminated at the Arndale before deregulation and noticed that there was a GMT bus going all the way to Liverpool. So I picked up the Bus Guide from the information office and saw its very long journey time. It was also noteworthy as most cross-boundary services tended to be operated by other operators instead of GMT.

 

[krisk]

Ha I remember raiding that office for timetables and hording them as a teenager

If I could buy a Metrolink/bus ticket i'd be happy but I don't just need a monthly ticket which is from where I live into Manchester, what about when I want to go out anywhere, should I buy a bus pass and a Metrolink season ticket too?

Will Metrolink on the Oldham line run to Market Street, how many will run to Picc Stn? And if there is a second crossing, how is that any good to me.

The best thing I can see Metrolink doing is making the roads and the buses quieter, when that is the case will we need upto 18 buses p/h on the Oldham Rd corridor?