Eurostar orders new double-deck train fleet

[AdamWW]

It’s quite enlightening that in one of the points quoted in post #238 they reckon going to double deck stock gives only a 20% capacity increase,

Do we know that they will be using exactly the same seating pitch as before as opposed to using their double decker nature partly to improve legroom as well as increase capacity?

 

[Snow1964]

Do we know that they will be using exactly the same seating pitch as before as opposed to using their double decker nature partly to improve legroom as well as increase capacity?

The Avelia Horizon is designed to carry upto 740 per 202m length unit in high density (1480 in double unit)

If they are only going for about 20% extra capacity, then they would be looking at about 550 seats per unit (or 1100 in 400m train). Even if you work on basis of about 30% of space being First / Premium configuration then suggests will be more space.

of course in double deck configuration need to have between seat small luggage areas as no spare ceiling height for overhead racks.

 

[Sorcerer]

Yes. And there's insufficient capacity to close off P1 from domestic traffic for any length of time, plus is on the wrong side of the station. It would be nigh-on impossible finding paths to and from the lines towards Aachen / Belgium when the station can't even cope with the existing level of services.

In that case I think Frankfurt is probably a more sensible choice for Germany services given it's a major economic centre much like London, Paris and Brussels. Geneva, Basel and Zurich are the Swiss contenders for this very same reason. If Eurostar's business strategy is primary geared towards business over leisure travellers then these cities make the most sense.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't believe so. A very significant proportion of people living in Zurich will hop on a train to go to Zurich Airport too.

Sorry you misunderstand me.

I meant the good folk of Zurich are much more likely to use Zurich airport than catch a train to Basle to use Basle airport.

 

[py_megapixel]

Of course, it wouldn't work if 'sterile' Eurostar just replaced existing Brussels - Cologne - Frankfurt paths (xx25 from Brussels Midi) as that would deprive intra-Schengen passengers the ability to travel. I suspect you'd need a flighted path leaving Brussels at xx19 (the xx22 is already occupied by the Amsterdam services) - doubt the timetabling would work.

aiui the double deck sets are to operate in pairs. Could one set be sterile and the other not, with the platforms divided to make passengers board the right one depending on their destination? At Brussels the non-sterile part would empty out and could then become sterile, with international passengers from Brussels travelling in that section.

 

[Trainbike46]

aiui the double deck sets are to operate in pairs. Could one set be sterile and the other not, with the platforms divided to make passengers board the right one depending on their destination? At Brussels the non-sterile part would empty out and could then become sterile, with international passengers from Brussels travelling in that section.

A similar approach was used on Amsterdam services, with half the train sterile for London passengers, and half non-sterile for Brussels-bound passengers. This was discontinued for, as I understand it, reliability and financial reasons, so I'm not sure they'd be that interested in trying it again for Frankfurt.

 

[BahrainLad]

Of course, it wouldn't work if 'sterile' Eurostar just replaced existing Brussels - Cologne - Frankfurt paths (xx25 from Brussels Midi) as that would deprive intra-Schengen passengers the ability to travel. I suspect you'd need a flighted path leaving Brussels at xx19 (the xx22 is already occupied by the Amsterdam services) - doubt the timetabling would work.

I can't see anything other than a Brussels shuffle being practical.

There would be no problem carrying intra-Schengen passengers from Brussels to Frankfurt on an ex-London Eurostar, the issue is in the other direction.

 

[TheWierdOne]

A similar approach was used on Amsterdam services, with half the train sterile for London passengers, and half non-sterile for Brussels-bound passengers. This was discontinued for, as I understand it, reliability and financial reasons, so I'm not sure they'd be that interested in trying it again for Frankfurt.

Would it work better if the two halves were separate units coupled together with no physical access between them?

 

[AdamWW]

Would it work better if the two halves were separate units coupled together with no physical access between them?

I don't think the problem is access - presumably easy enough to lock and guard a door.

But it means that unless you leave the non-sterile part empty for the rest of the journey you have to wait at, say, Brussels while the carriages are checked rather than it being done in the depot before departure as usual.

In principle I suppose you could swap out one portion for another but I don't supposed that would be terribly practical.

 

[TheWierdOne]

I don't think the problem is access - presumably easy enough to lock and guard a door.

But it means that unless you leave the non-sterile part empty for the rest of the journey you have to wait at, say, Brussels while the carriages are checked rather than it being done in the depot before departure as usual.

In principle I suppose you could swap out one portion for another but I don't supposed that would be terribly practical.

Yes swapping a unit would save a lot of time searching, but I imagine finding the space to do that in Brussels would be tricky, and I’m not sure you’d save that much time when you take into account the time taken to uncouple, clear the Schengen unit off the platform, bring in the UK unit, couple up, load passengers. If you had a 600m platform you could have the new unit waiting on the platform and simply have the through-UK unit on the front of the train, decouple, pull forward, couple and go. Good luck finding a 600m platform though.

 

[Trainbike46]

Yes swapping a unit would save a lot of time searching, but I imagine finding the space to do that in Brussels would be tricky, and I’m not sure you’d save that much time when you take into account the time taken to uncouple, clear the Schengen unit off the platform, bring in the UK unit, couple up, load passengers. If you had a 600m platform you could have the new unit waiting on the platform and simply have the through-UK unit on the front of the train, decouple, pull forward, couple and go. Good luck finding a 600m platform though.

Another option would be to drop the intra-schengen portion before getting to Brussels (maybe at Zaventem?), and run that portion to Antwerp instead. That way, you'd have a London train that could couple to a portion already sterile and in the platform at Brussel Zuid/Midi, and an Antwerp train without needing a separate path for it in Germany.

However, even that is likely too much of an operational nightmare, and would probably also involve unbalanced paths.

 

[Austriantrain]

Sorry you misunderstand me.

I meant the good folk of Zurich are much more likely to use Zurich airport than catch a train to Basle to use Basle airport.

Indeed, I misunderstood. I agree with you on this of course!

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London - (near)Paris - Strasbourg - Frankfurt would be faster than London - Brussels - Cologne - Frankfurt, and given that Eurostar has a strong relationship with and will operate the same underlying train as SNCF probably a lot easier for them to follow existing TGV routes. Just make a stop at Charles de Gaulle to swap to an SNCF crew that and they wouldn't even have train their own staff.
(to be fair DB has also pledged cooperation with Eurostar)

Now that is an interesting thought, run via Strasbourg. The second set then goes on to Basel. (Provided that a "sterile" train split-and-join can be agreed, of course).

 

[Santa Claus]

'n Ahmdchen,

strikes me as one of the least attractive destinations in Germany, and the attractive places that way are quite a bit away from it.

that would be?

Dresden, which can be reached from Frankfurt directly every two hours?

Berlin, which can be reached from Frankfurt directly every hour?

Munich, which can be reached from Frankfurt directly every hour?

$anylargecity, which can be reached from Frankfurt directly every hour, or at most every two hours?

Frankfurt Hbf. (Hbf!, not Süd or Airport) is one of Germany's best-connected intercity stations. Going there gives you a two-seat ride to almost all of Germany.

Cologne isn't connected as well (it's much further west, after all), and you have to pass through Cologne (obviously), one of Germany's better delay-creators. From Frankfurt, you can avoid this (as already mentioned upthread).

 

[Austriantrain]

'n Ahmdchen,

that would be?

Dresden, which can be reached from Frankfurt directly every two hours?

Berlin, which can be reached from Frankfurt directly every hour?

Munich, which can be reached from Frankfurt directly every hour?

$anylargecity, which can be reached from Frankfurt directly every hour, or at most every two hours?

Frankfurt Hbf. (Hbf!, not Süd or Airport) is one of Germany's best-connected intercity stations. Going there gives you a two-seat ride to almost all of Germany

I don’t disagree, of course you are right. It is just that from London, journey time to most of the destinations you mention will be extremely long.

I never argued against Frankfurt as the train destination. I just think it needs to stop in Cologne too to fill it.

 

[Krokodil]

Cologne is a useful hub if heading north. Through trains remove the connection penalty in Brussels

 

[Stossgebet]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned up thread somewhere.

Would the new Eurostar fleet be able to use the high speed line between Koln and Frankfurt?
I seem to recall that due to the gradients, only EMUs were allowed on it. That doesn't prevent Eurostar ising their E320 to Frankfurt. But that's a big 16 car commitment to every journey.

 

[Frothy]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned up thread somewhere.

Would the new Eurostar fleet be able to use the high speed line between Koln and Frankfurt?
I seem to recall that due to the gradients, only EMUs were allowed on it. That doesn't prevent Eurostar ising their E320 to Frankfurt. But that's a big 16 car commitment to every journey.

It's almost certain the new fleet are being designed with that line in mind. Eurostar have said that (a) the new fleet will serve Frankfurt and (b) offer a journey time between London and Frankfurt of 5 hours, and the Köln-Frankfurt HSL is the only way to achieve it.