Should EMR cancel the Class 810 order and/or return the trains?

[AndrewJM70]

A mix of 5 and 7 car trains would have worked perfectly. With 33 sets, 4 or 5 out of service on any day and 24 required to run the schedule that only leaves 4 or 5 spare to double up. All of this nonsense for 4 or 5 flexible diagrams.

 

[NCT]

A mix of 5 and 7 car trains would have worked perfectly. With 33 sets, 4 or 5 out of service on any day and 24 required to run the schedule that only leaves 4 or 5 spare to double up. All of this nonsense for 4 or 5 flexible diagrams.

7 was too small for the peaks and too big for the offpeak.

 

[WesternLancer]

7 was too small for the peaks and too big for the offpeak.

but was that based on estimates with a certain proportion of passengers moving on to HS services via the proposed East Mids leg of the high speed line? As mentioned up thread recently.
I usually travel off peak and the services off peak are the ones that are busiest (often full and standing) in my experience! It's the peak demand that has reduced.
And that's without scope for passenger growth.

 

[BuhSnarf]

A mix of 5 and 7 car trains would have worked perfectly. With 33 sets, 4 or 5 out of service on any day and 24 required to run the schedule that only leaves 4 or 5 spare to double up. All of this nonsense for 4 or 5 flexible diagrams.

When the Meridians were initially launched they had 9 car and 4 car sets - in the end I believe all were eventually balanced out to make 5 car sets as this allowed greater flexibility of running as either a 5 car or doubling up to 10.

I don't think 7 car sets would solve any as they wouldn't be sufficient for when a 10 car is needed and couldn't be doubled and then in the off peaks you're essentially dragging round extra cars you can't decouple.

 

[Trainbike46]

This has been covered multiple times in this thread and others.

Remember the EMR fleet decision was made in an environment of competitive tender where DfT's main interest was maximising premium payments. A bidder that proposed running full-length trains all-day would have lost the bid. EMR is the shortest of all intercity routes, serving only medium-sized cities with no particular tourism merits, and just doesn't have the all-day off-peak demand like its East Coast or West Coast neighbours.

It's also easy to forget that EMR demand and capacity forecasts were made in an era when HS2 was expected to whisk away the majority of East Midlands demand by 2033. The Leicester demand remaining with EMR would never have justified running full-length trains all day.

These are all fair points.

However, sticking with the 222s for longer, and then ordering electric only units to be used after electrification (and HS2) came online; or alternatively, ordering 9-car "standard 80x bimode" (or standard 80x bimode with extra diesel gensets to increase off-wire power) for EMR that in a GBR world could have been used for GWR or LNER (as needed) or put towards XC services as part of a move to integrate XC more into other IC services.

Both options would have some merit, but I do understand why they were not selected.

What I really don't understand is why new non-standard, high power bimodes were ordered for a line that, at the time, was planned for full electrification, while there wasn't anything inherently wrong with the existing trains, other than that there weren't enough of them.

 

[Nottingham59]

A mix of 5 and 7 car trains would have worked perfectly. With 33 sets, 4 or 5 out of service on any day and 24 required to run the schedule that only leaves 4 or 5 spare to double up. All of this nonsense for 4 or 5 flexible diagrams.

I agree with the principle, but I reckon it should have been an equal number of 5 and 9-car sets

• A 9-car 80x with 26m carriages is shorter than 2x810 (234m vs. 240m) and carries more seats (647 vs 2 x 301),
• The MML timetable means that sets being used on morning peak flows into London get used also for evening peaks out, so the 9-cars are used very efficiently, and don't need to split/join
• More efficient use of onboard staff
• Far better cascade flexibility if the MML is ever electrified to Sheffield. A 9/5 car fleet could be reconfigured to a uniform 7-car fleet (7x26=182m), perfect for services out of places like Manchester Victoria with 200m platforms.

And yes, there are downsides:

• EMR may have needed a new depot on somewhere like Chaddesden sidings to accommodate the longer units.
• Slightly slower acceleration off the wires may have required a timetable recast north of Kettering
• No scope to split and join in service, but splitting/joining is not really needed on the MML

 

[Trainbike46]

A mix of 5 and 7 car trains would have worked perfectly. With 33 sets, 4 or 5 out of service on any day and 24 required to run the schedule that only leaves 4 or 5 spare to double up. All of this nonsense for 4 or 5 flexible diagrams.

The plan was to be able to double up around half the diagrams, as the plan was (and presumably still is) to improve diagram efficiency. 5 out of 33 out of service does seem like a lot as well.

 

[NCT]

but was that based on estimates with a certain proportion of passengers moving on to HS services via the proposed East Mids leg of the high speed line? As mentioned up thread recently.
I usually travel off peak and the services off peak are the ones that are busiest (often full and standing) in my experience! It's the peak demand that has reduced.
And that's without scope for passenger growth.

They needed trains big enough to soak up peak loads pre 2033 and small enough for post 2033 demand.

 

[WesternLancer]

They needed trains big enough to soak up peak loads pre 2033 and small enough for post 2033 demand.

I guess so - though you could reconfigure lengths after 2033 and cascade some I would have thought (had HS eastern leg been delivered)

 

[Trainman40083]

There was once talk of another depot at Brighton, near Sheffield. So, had they gone for 9 car standards would they have fitted in all the stations, they usually call at?

 

[D365]

There was once talk of another depot at Brighton, near Sheffield. So, had they gone for 9 car standards would they have fitted in all the stations, they usually call at?

Brighton, or Beighton?

Off the top of my head, Chesterfield and Long Eaton are pinch points.

 

[Trainman40083]

Brighton, or Beighton?

Off the top of my head, Chesterfield and Long Eaton are pinch points.

Whoops. Predictive text kicked in. BEIGHTON. Would it affect use of platform 5 at Sheffield?

 

[Nottingham59]

There was once talk of another depot at Brighton, near Sheffield. So, had they gone for 9 car standards would they have fitted in all the stations, they usually call at?

Beeston. Not sure of platform lengths, but I do know that if you're in the rear portion of a doubled-up 222, then you can't get off and will get over-carried to Nottingham. At least in a 9-car set, you can walk forwards

 

[liamf656]

Beeston. Not sure of platform lengths, but I do know that if you're in the rear portion of a doubled-up 222, then you can't get off and will get over-carried to Nottingham. At least in a 9-car set, you can walk forwards

Not the case for Beeston (6 coaches), but it is the case at Long Eaton (4 coaches) and East Midlands Parkway Platforms 3 and 4 (5 coaches)

 

[baz962]

Whoops. Predictive text kicked in. BEIGHTON. Would it affect use of platform 5 at Sheffield?

P5 at Sheffield is officially a 9 car platform , but can take a 10 car 222

 

[Nottingham59]

Not the case for Beeston (6 coaches), but it is the case at Long Eaton (4 coaches) and East Midlands Parkway Platforms 3 and 4 (5 coaches)

Maybe Beeston is 6 coaches long, but I was on a doubled-up 222 late one night and some blokes who just caught the train at Leicester weren't allowed to get off from the rear portion and ended up in Nottingham.

 

[Trainman40083]

P5 at Sheffield is officially a 9 car platform , but can take a 10 car 222

And would a 9 car 810 be longer than a 10 car 222? I've forgotten the relevant lengths

 

[Nottingham59]

And would a 9 car 810 be longer than a 10 car 222? I've forgotten the relevant lengths

810 cars are 24m
80x cars are 26m
222 are 22.8m (23.8 at the ends)