I had to crawl on my hands and knees to get off train, says disabled woman

[AlterEgo]

“They took several months to investigate”.

That’s an assumption!

No, it took from December until May as per the news report. This occurred in December 2025.

Are you privy to the details of the case, yes or no?

 

[Snow1964]

What seems to be missing in the responses by the staff, and in some of the comments here, is a lack of recognition of a need for someone to take the initiative, that regardless of who should have contacted who, there is now a passenger in a wheelchair unable to disembark at her planned destination, and someone needs to take the lead in putting the parts together and get the situation rectified. Situations like this are as much about initiative and soft skills as they are about formal responsibilities,

I think this is where problem seems to have been not taken seriously (just sort of happens, and little care was shown), in reality multiple people missed the looming problem before train got the Bath. Did they actually do their job properly (or just part of their job).

If staff at Paddington chose to put a passenger and logged a message that passenger in wheelchair will be in a specific coach, which for 9 years has't fitted Bath platform, why did no one think something isn't right here.

What happened afterwards, and the apology and compensation approach sounds like a shambols, charge customer for overcarry, how quick was that returned, did they unreservedly double or triple the fare for inconvenience with a prompt apology, or did they let it fester with a poor half apology with no explanation of what they could do better, and a pathetic offer of a refund only (no compensation) until pressed much later.

 

[AlterEgo]

What happened afterwards, and the apology and compensation approach sounds like a shambols, charge customer for overcarry, how quick was that returned, did they unreservedly double or triple the fare for inconvenience with a prompt apology, or did they let it fester with a poor half apology with no explanation of what they could do better, and a pathetic offer of a refund only (no compensation) until pressed much later.

How have people still not grasped the essential facts of this case? They did not get overcarried. They chose to alight by crawling off the train, having refused the idea of going to Bristol and back again. They didn't pay for another ticket.

 

[bramling]

What seems to be missing in the responses by the staff, and in some of the comments here, is a lack of recognition of a need for someone to take the initiative, that regardless of who should have contacted who, there is now a passenger in a wheelchair unable to disembark at her planned destination, and someone needs to take the lead in putting the parts together and get the situation rectified. Situations like this are as much about initiative and soft skills as they are about formal responsibilities,

The problem is that once it gets as far as the train is at the platform where the person wants to get off, it becomes difficult to resolve, and most of the solutions are likely to involve several different people. The moment delay starts occurring you will also have other passengers involved, wanting to know what’s going on.

Either the railway needs to design things so that things can work within the level of assistance that they are realistically able to provide, or they should be honest and find another way of providing for these journeys (eg provide a taxi). It isn’t fair to the person involved, and it isn’t fair for other passengers either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 12:41 ==

How have people still not grasped the essential facts of this case? They did not get overcarried. They chose to alight by crawling off the train, having refused the idea of going to Bristol and back again. They didn't pay for another ticket.

Neither scenario is satisfactory. If the passenger had travelled to Bristol and back then it would have added up to an hour, with of course some element of risk that there might be another mess-up of some kind (what if for example there were no wheelchair spaces available on the next return service?).

These two options might have been the only ones viable, but it shouldn’t have got to that situation.

What I’m not understanding is why the problem was unable to be resolved prior to departure from the previous station.

 

[robbeech]

It's not victim blaming. This is merely suggesting that there is ALWAYS two sides to a story. Everyone is quick to assume the train company is guilty.

Playing them at their own game really, passengers are guilty by default in all disputes.

One would think you were the disabled passnger herself by how much you claim to know about each interaction.

More likely the guard. But then, the railway family is a tight community isn’t it many of which will fight to the death.

If staff at Paddington chose to put a passenger and logged a message that passenger in wheelchair will be in a specific coach, which for 9 years has't fitted Bath platform, why did no one think something isn't right here.

Because the top and bottom of it is, they don’t really know what they’re doing. They’re just winging it (not you Paul) with a fraction of the knowledge they ought to have to do the job they’re doing as a collective. We shouldn’t immediately put the blame onto individuals of course, a lack of training is usually from above as a cost saving exercise. “Pick it up on the job” is fine when it comes to working out which size socket goes on this bolt on this common piece of equipment but it’s not fine when you humiliate a lady in a wheelchair.

There’s entertainment venues around the world with “quirks” that we just learn on the job. If you’re doing this venue on a tour you’ll need this extra piece of hardware to do this job or it’ll be really difficult and take an extra hour is something you learn after it’s really difficult and takes an extra hour the first time. In this venue if you don’t do this it’ll collapse and 400 people will be immediately crushed to death is something that is assessed, planned for and training given where applicable.

If the passenger had travelled to Bristol and back then it would have added up to an hour, with of course some element of risk that there might be another mess-up of some kind (what if for example there were no wheelchair spaces available on the next return service?).

Quite a high chance someone would mess it up again I’d say. Train would be running late by this point, could well be re platformed at Bristol, could miss a connection, could be no space on the next one, could simply be no staff around that know anything about the situation leaving the passenger on the train again or leaving them on the platform.

 

[Snow1964]

Neither scenario is satisfactory. If the passenger had travelled to Bristol and back then it would have added up to an hour, with of course some element of risk that there might be another mess-up of some kind (what if for example there were no wheelchair spaces available on the next return service?).

Just because the trains next scheduled stop was Bristol, doesn't mean a stop order couldn't have been made at a station between Bath and Bristol, once railway realised they had screwed up.

Keynsham platform is 14m longer than Bath (209m vs 195m per sectional appendix) and is accessible by long ramp. It would have been lot quicker to get a taxi there, than offer a return trip to Bristol.

Probably also quicker to pause at Keynsham than wait the reported 10 minutes at Bath

 

[WelshBluebird]

Again all I will say is the attitude displayed by some people here is exactly why things like this continue to happen. Disabled people are seen as a nuisance rather than paying travelling passengers.

It would have been lot quicker to get a taxi there, than offer a return trip to Bristol.

To be fair I suspect getting a taxi itself would have been much easier and quicker at Temple meads compared to Keynsham. Keynsham is a fairly small town really, and whilst it has become absorbed into the Bristol / Bath commuter belt and has good rail connectivity, it still has the issue lots of small towns have - and that includes poor availability of taxis. I suspect they would have got to Bristol, got a taxi and be on their way back already by the time a taxi got to the station at Keynsham.

 

[Snow1964]

Again all I will say is the attitude displayed by some people here is exactly why things like this continue to happen. Disabled people are seen as a nuisance rather than paying travelling passengers.

To be fair I suspect getting a taxi itself would have been much easier and quicker at Temple meads compared to Keynsham. Keynsham is a fairly small town really, and whilst it has become absorbed into the Bristol / Bath commuter belt and has good rail connectivity, it still has the issue lots of small towns have - and that includes poor availability of taxis. I suspect they would have got to Bristol, got a taxi and be on their way back already by the time a taxi got to the station at Keynsham.

The traffic along A4 corridor into Bristol is usually very slow, if destination is Bath, wasting about half an hour getting from Bristol to Keynsham area.

I don't think Oldfield Park station which is just 5 mins by road from Bath is accessible

 

[Chiltern 165]

More likely the guard. But then, the railway family is a tight community isn’t it many of which will fight to the death.

Which contributes to a lack of accountability, and the general "railway attitude" of nobody doing anything.

Because the top and bottom of it is, they don’t really know what they’re doing. They’re just winging it (not you Paul) with a fraction of the knowledge they ought to have to do the job they’re doing as a collective. We shouldn’t immediately put the blame onto individuals of course, a lack of training is usually from above as a cost saving exercise. “Pick it up on the job” is fine when it comes to working out which size socket goes on this bolt on this common piece of equipment but it’s not fine when you humiliate a lady in a wheelchair.

I am sorry, but I also blame the employees. It doesn't matter the level of training you have, anybody reasonable should use problem solving skills to resolve this amicably.

Any of the staff involved could've: aranged with the driver/guard to stop early then draw forwards, arange for the passenger to leave at Chippingham or Bristol (with an accompanying taxi), put the passenger on the following service and give a refund/compensation.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The traffic along A4 corridor into Bristol is usually very slow, if destination is Bath, wasting about half an hour getting from Bristol to Keynsham area.

I don't think Oldfield Park station which is just 5 mins by road from Bath is accessible

Oldfield Park has ramps but I think they may be deemed to be too steep, and there isn't really a good place next to the station for an accessible taxi to park that doesn't block traffic (which is a consideration when loading wheelchairs etc into a taxi). At least Keynsham has a car park.

But even with the traffic, just knowing how hard it has been to get a taxi in and around Keynsham previously, and especially considering accessible taxis are even harder to get, I just think that in the world of accepting the whole taxi situation - getting to Bristol and then heading back would have been the easiest option with less to go wrong. Also remember that taxis usually can use bus lanes, and whilst there are not enough of them on the Bristol to bath corridor (and WECA has just watered down a plan to add more), some do exist.

Just to add - I live in Bristol, have friends I regularly visit in Bath, used to live near Oldfield Park station and my workplace is technically just outside Keynsham even though I WFH most of the time these days - so this is all local to me and I have experience in trying (and failing) to get a taxi in some of these places!

 

[Chiltern 165]

Again all I will say is the attitude displayed by some people here is exactly why things like this continue to happen. Disabled people are seen as a nuisance rather than paying travelling passengers.

I very often see this attitude when talking to railway staff (both on and off the forum). Many seemingly have no regard for anyone but the railway and their fellow employees.

 

[AlterEgo]

The problem is that once it gets as far as the train is at the platform where the person wants to get off, it becomes difficult to resolve, and most of the solutions are likely to involve several different people. The moment delay starts occurring you will also have other passengers involved, wanting to know what’s going on.

Either the railway needs to design things so that things can work within the level of assistance that they are realistically able to provide, or they should be honest and find another way of providing for these journeys (eg provide a taxi). It isn’t fair to the person involved, and it isn’t fair for other passengers either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 12:41 ==



Neither scenario is satisfactory. If the passenger had travelled to Bristol and back then it would have added up to an hour, with of course some element of risk that there might be another mess-up of some kind (what if for example there were no wheelchair spaces available on the next return service?).

These two options might have been the only ones viable, but it shouldn’t have got to that situation.

What I’m not understanding is why the problem was unable to be resolved prior to departure from the previous station.

Of course neither scenario is satisfactory. One results in an hour delay and changing trains, which is inconvenient, annoying, but within the normal bounds of what might go wrong on any railway journey; nobody would really bat an eyelid had, say, there been an operational incident or a track defect and the train failed to call at Bath, or been diverted to miss it out. The other outcome is reducing a disabled person to crawling on the floor because they cannot walk and crying from the upset, which should never ever happen. Quite why they felt compelled to do this we will never know, but it seems probable they lost confidence in the ability of the railway and wanted out, instead of trusting an already failed service to navigate another station and another train. That's why better soft skills might have resulted in the former outcome rather than the latter. The best place for them to go was Bristol and then sort it out. There are 5 or 6 trains an hour back to Bath, or you can taxi them all the way home.

Someone at some point ought to have spotted the problem. Ideally, at Paddington. My guess is the Lead Host did not understand the limitations of Bath Spa and therefore did not spot the problem. I don't think the reverse formation of the train was picked up by anyone as a risk, and I think the guard was probably unaware of the issue - or even the passenger's presence, for some reason. I have some limited sympathy with the staff. I used to man the phone lines for Passenger Assistance (before the app!) and some of these calls would take 20 minutes. There is a lot of attention to detail required and I felt glad I was on the phone rather than dealing with it on the ground, where you don't have 20 minutes to spot a problem. And very occasionally you would get things wrong, but someone would spot it and rectify the issue on the ground. What has happened here is several big holes in the Swiss cheese have all lined up at once. Once the passenger is at Bath, they're screwed. Any station call before that and you can at least consider drawing forward options, or, most preferable, routeing into P2 which can fully accommodate the train. That is the neatest solution with the lowest risk and would have cost fewer delay minutes than what happened here and most importantly the passenger could alight at Bath normally.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 13:22 ==

Coming to think of it, the passenger ought never to have had to submit a complaint. If I am the guard or station staff at Bath and I see a wheelchair-bound passenger using only their hands to exit the train while crying, I am on the phone to Control or a duty manager and capturing the passenger's details for follow up.

 

[Watershed]

One has been on a number of complaints by passengers that have been proven to be fictitious in my career! Luckily the company I work for simply doesn't take the word of the customer as gospel and will investigate each claim.

All I'm doing is stating other possible scenarios which most seem to be immediately dismissive of.

If GWR truly believed the complaint to be fictitious then I'm sure we would have had an according response in their "right to reply" in the original article. The fact that instead, they apologised unreservedly suggests that the account is accurate.

I find it very strange why some people insist on being corporate apologists who will defend whatever a company has done on the basis we should give them the benefit of the doubt, whilst at the same time questioning the complainant's truthfulness.

 

[AlterEgo]

I find it very strange why some people insist on being corporate apologists who will defend whatever a company has done on the basis we should give them the benefit of the doubt, whilst at the same time questioning the complainant's truthfulness.

At least one poster in this thread works for GWR. Can you spot them?

 

[Djgr]

“They took several months to investigate”.

That’s an assumption! To dispute it simply isn’t a good look. Accept, chuck some compensation and the matter is considered resolved.

Been involved and known people to be involved in “investigations” and they’ve never been consulted or even “spoken to”

Perhaps stop digging the hole you're in?

 

[mmh]

At least one poster in this thread works for GWR. Can you spot them?

I wonder if the railway is like this as a whole, or if the staff who post on forums are unrepresentative. Because I've never (in the civil service, local government and the private sector) felt the need to defend my employer or industry. All companies and organisations mess up.

 

[RGM654]

It is not clear why Phoebe ended up crawling through the train. Who suggested that as even a possible solution? Who decided that it was the least worst? _If_ it was the parents surely the (wrongly demanded) excess fare would not have been a total deal breaker for going through to Bristol, but the delay (whether returning to Bath on another train or getting a taxi either there or to the final destination) might have been. Perhaps the grandparents were in a time-limited parking bay at Bath.

On another aspect there have been one or two mentions up thread of the delay to all the other passengers if this or that solution had been chosen, but did crawling several coach lengths really cause less delay?

 

[AlterEgo]

On another aspect there have been one or two mentions up thread of the delay to all the other passengers if this or that solution had been chosen, but did crawling several coach lengths really cause less delay?

The solution with most delay and no guarantee is setting back by performing a wrong direction move. That is a bad solution. That could be half an hour or more and affect multiple trains. That is also the only solution to the issue *once the train has stopped in the correct position forward of the platform and stranded the wheelchair user*.

 

[Crithylum]

Then you would be incorrect. There'a an important distinction.

"I don't believe you" = I'm not convinced that what you're saying is true. It leaves open the possibility that the person is mistaken, confused, misinformed, or has misunderstood something.

"You're lying" = I believe you know the truth but are deliberately saying something false.

“I don’t believe a word you’re saying” is quite a bit different (more assertive) than “I don’t believe you”.
As someone else said, I suggest you quit digging.

(Annoyingly it wouldn’t quote a quote in the message)

 

[TUC]

Because the top and bottom of it is, they don’t really know what they’re doing. They’re just winging it (not you Paul) with a fraction of the knowledge they ought to have to do the job they’re doing as a collective. We shouldn’t immediately put the blame onto individuals of course, a lack of training is usually from above as a cost saving exercise. “Pick it up on the job” is fine when it comes to working out which size socket goes on this bolt on this common piece of equipment but it’s not fine when you humiliate a lady in a wheelchair.

I'm not sure that should be the case in reality. With or without training, passengers in wheelchairs will be people that both station and train staff encounter every day. There will be a lot that any reasonably alert member of staff should pick up from those day to day interactions. Similarly, the stations in question are not remote rural ones. They are ones uses by large numbers of trains, passengers and staff each day.

 

[robbeech]

I wonder if the railway is like this as a whole, or if the staff who post on forums are unrepresentative. Because I've never (in the civil service, local government and the private sector) felt the need to defend my employer or industry. All companies and organisations mess up.

It’s the way it has always been, which is filled with irony itself as much of what runs and happens on the railway does so because it’s the way it has always been.

I’m certainly not comfortable grouping the whole railway together with this sort of behaviour and absolute display of incompetence of course, quite far from it but you will always see rail staff default to sticking up for eachother until it is proven they should not be doing so, and then it’s just a case of how strongly someone is prepared to fight that determines when they’ll quit.

I’d like to think most rail staff we have here will have seen quite quickly that the railway has messed up here and will be happy to accept and acknowledge that. Sadly we do have some that will simply do anything they can to stick up for their friends and/or colleagues regardless of what has happened because of the family.

 

[TUC]

What is particularly hard to understand is the staff member who said the passenger would have to pay an additional fare for the added journey. One does not need to know an ounce about the fares system, only common sense, to know that in no way would it be reasonable to charge a disabled passenger an additional fare in these circumstances.

 

[robbeech]

I'm not sure that should be the case in reality. With or without training, passengers in wheelchairs will be people that both station and train staff encounter every day. There will be a lot that any reasonably alert member of staff should pick up from those day to day interactions. Similarly, the stations in question are not remote rural ones. They are ones uses by large numbers of trains, passengers and staff each day.

Indeed. Lots of “should” there, and I agree. They should. But they haven’t on this occasion and many more besides.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 14:34 ==

What is particularly hard to understand is the staff member who said the passenger would have to pay an additional fare for the added journey. One does not need to know an ounce about the fares system, only common sense, to know that in no way would it be reasonable to charge a disabled passenger an additional fare in these circumstances.

I’ve deliberately avoided discussion on that part, it’s very easy for this to have been misunderstood in the heat of the moment. From something as simple as being told they’d have to “get” a ticket back, which doesn’t necessarily imply buy but more obtain some form of permit to travel. Yes it’s possible someone did say it, but it’s also possible they didn’t quite say or mean that.

 

[Starmill]

Again, it’s very unlikely that all of them have not realised the error. Bath is a very busy and popular station.

It's not. These errors happen frequently across the network.

It's almost never the fault of one individual, but that doesn't mean it's unlikely.

Then you would be incorrect. There'a an important distinction.

"I don't believe you" = I'm not convinced that what you're saying is true. It leaves open the possibility that the person is mistaken, confused, misinformed, or has misunderstood something.

"You're lying" = I believe you know the truth but are deliberately saying something false.

Errors and failures of customer assistance are routine. They're almost never lies or malicious but they are very common.

It's vastly more likely that GWR is the mistaken party, not the customer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 14:47 ==

Rules, procedures, risk assessments. I doubt many TOC would authorise such a method working.

The rules provide for such shunts, in exceptional circumstances (such as this).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 14:50 ==

If GWR truly believed the complaint to be fictitious then I'm sure we would have had an according response in their "right to reply" in the original article. The fact that instead, they apologised unreservedly suggests that the account is accurate.

I find it very strange why some people insist on being corporate apologists who will defend whatever a company has done on the basis we should give them the benefit of the doubt, whilst at the same time questioning the complainant's truthfulness.

It's bizarre isn't it. I know many people who happen to work for TOCs and are perfectly comfortable accepting that some very severe failures of customer care happen on their employer's watch.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The fulsome apology is just standard stuff. It avoids a public dispute. Simple as that.

Dictionary definitions of "fulsome"
- complimentary or flattering to an excessive degree (Shorter Oxford English Dictionary).
- excessive or insincere, esp in an offensive or distasteful way (Collins Dictionary)

 

[Kumquat]

It is not clear why Phoebe ended up crawling through the train. Who suggested that as even a possible solution? Who decided that it was the least worst? _If_ it was the parents surely the (wrongly demanded) excess fare would not have been a total deal breaker for going through to Bristol, but the delay (whether returning to Bath on another train or getting a taxi either there or to the final destination) might have been. Perhaps the grandparents were in a time-limited parking bay at Bath.

On another aspect there have been one or two mentions up thread of the delay to all the other passengers if this or that solution had been chosen, but did crawling several coach lengths really cause less delay?

If you're a young adult with your parents, planning to meet your grandparents, it's totally plausible that you know the elderly grandparents can't cope with changes to plans, may not be comfortable driving to Bristol, you don't want to create family drama, maybe they planned to have lunch together...

If it's a 10-car train with only one carriage stopped beyond the platform, it would be max one carriage length she'd have had to crawl, possibly assisted by her parents. I could easily see her deciding it was the least worst option for her day.

For reference, I've been a wheelchair user (I could walk a few steps, which helped a lot). Did a few journeys from my local station to Victoria and Clapham Junction which worked OK with the ramp, but one from Waterloo to Twickenham was a problem - they got me off the train but then the stairlift broke, despite it working 15 minutes earlier for a previous passenger. The platform guy said the only alternative was to get on the next train, go one stop, cross over, and return to Twickenham platform 1, which would take at least an hour.

My friend and I decided there was an alternative, so when the next train arrived, we got volunteers to carry me upstairs, sliding me up the bannisters. Friend carried the wheelchair. Yes, undignified and not a solution BR could suggest, but it meant I still got my planned afternoon outside a nearby pub with friends. After the gig, police and rail staff were great at getting me back onto the train, but no ramp appeared at Waterloo, so I got another pair of Iron Maiden fans to lift me off the train, followed by others helping me onto a bus home.

Being disabled is all about figuring out priorities. It shouldn't require detailed route knowledge of every train station working (yes I can now walk reasonably, no, changing at Selhurst with two flights of stairs is not an adequate alternative for me...)

It shouldn't need to be said, but it was implied upthread that disabled passengers will always complain when something goes wrong, which is laughably inaccurate - life is too short to complain about 99% of access failures!

I would like to know if the Passenger Assistance app or railways in general record failures to provide timely ramps, or other access fails. Anyone know? Statistics showing the system improving year on year would be reassuring...

 

[WelshBluebird]

but it was implied upthread that disabled passengers will always complain when something goes wrong, which is laughably inaccurate - life is too short to complain about 99% of access failures!

Indeed. If that was the case then those passengers would be spending so much time making a complaint they wouldn't be going anywhere anyway! The idea that such failures are rare or "unlikely" is hilarious to someone who has seen them happen time and time again (but thankfully isn't one of the people affected by it - I would be finding it infuriating rather than funny if I was impacted).

 

[VP185]

At least one poster in this thread works for GWR. Can you spot them?

At least one person in this thread is intelligent enough to understand you need to be in possession of both sides of a story before making judgement. Can you spot them?

I’ve had a passenger report me for physical assaulting them, allegedly pushing them to the ground in an unprovoked attack causing significant injuries, for which photos were provided.
Now in this thread it would seem
everyone would agree I was guilty of that based on their complaint.

Fortunately the station had CCTV. What the guy failed to mention in his complaint is that he initially shoved me against the train, raised his fists, spat at me and then gave me another shove before walking to a station bench in a clearly intoxicated state. Shortly after we departed he stood up, stumbled around and then fell over.

Being in possession of all the facts is a very simple concept but it seems to be extremely difficult for a lot of people to understand.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 16:05 ==

The rules provide for such shunts, in exceptional circumstances (such as this).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Thursday at 14:50 ==

No they do not.

 

[sprunt]

At least one poster in this thread works for GWR. Can you spot them?

I hope for their sake that nobody from GWR is reading the thread and able to link the username to a real name,

At least one person in this thread is intelligent enough to understand you need to be in possession of both sides of a story before making judgement. Can you spot them?

I don't think it's the one who blundered into the thread with a made up story about what happened that they then drew conclusions from.

 

[35B]

Being in possession of all the facts is a very simple concept but it seems to be extremely difficult for a lot of people to understand.

But we do have what GWR have stated publicly and on the record. It is reasonable to take that as the factual starting point, rather than building "customer guilty" castles in the air based on no evidence whatsoever.