Northern discussions on conductor restructuring .

[snookertam]

Love how traincrew say they want Sunday in the working week, then do their best to input obstacles to ensure it doesn’t happen.

Drivers at ScotRail also say they’re up for Sunday as part of the working week, the rocks will melt in the sun before they accept any proposal that made it happen. And why would they? Why should they even? You get most of your Sundays off, a good chance of ensuring any specific Sunday off, and also hold a load of power should the company piss you off about something by refusing overtime.

It all a big game.

 

[Killingworth]

However, back on Northern we have timetabling difficulties when various stock types can operate the same services. 195s have better acceleration and braking than the 150/156/158 combinations that may be drafted in at short notice to cover for them. A pair of lightly loaded 150s will perform better than a packed 2 car 195 that has to let passengers off and back on again at each stop.

This DOO issue is a matter of principle rod for Northern and the RMT's backs. As long as 195 and 331s seem to be the only units that could operate that way, and they're interchanged with other units that can't, surely it's largely academic? Put that issue away to be resolved before 2032 when new stock makes it more relevant?

As a passenger I want a full Sunday service now. The truncated services lead to highly variable loadings, especially when combined with short forming and cancellations.

I'd like doors to open a little quicker at some stations. I see payment avoidance and would like to see more fellow passengers being pulled up and made to pay - but in the shorter term let's get those Sunday services reinstated.

Have Northern enough conductors trained and willing to do that from the December timetable change? Seems not. A fortnight or so ago tickets could be booked for the full Hope Valley Sunday timetable. Not any more! Maybe by May? I'll not hold my breathe.

DOOOOO!

 

[InkyScrolls]

This DOO issue is a matter of principle rod for Northern and the RMT's backs. As long as 195 and 331s seem to be the only units that could operate that way, and they're interchanged with other units that can't, surely it's largely academic? Put that issue away to be resolved before 2032 when new stock makes it more relevant?

Not quite - the 333s are set up for DOCC as well. The primary beneficiary of the proposal would be the Triangle, as all local services (bar one or two at the extreme ends of the day) are operated, even with short notice unit changes, with either 333s or 331s.

 

[Sleepy]

Given that Dft/Heidi appear to show little interest in resolving East - West dispute and Northern management are playing games is it any wonder the guards aren't too bothered about restructuring.

 

[Iskra]

Given that Dft/Heidi appear to show little interest in resolving East - West dispute and Northern management are playing games is it any wonder the guards aren't too bothered about restructuring.

Everyone is back around the table, so that comment seems inaccurate.

As does the one about guards not being bothered: it’s more nuanced than that. I strongly suspect there is a big divergence of opinion between West and East on the matter.

 

[Sleepy]

Everyone is back around the table, so that comment seems inaccurate.

As does the one about guards not being bothered: it’s more nuanced than that. I strongly suspect there is a big divergence of opinion between West and East on the matter.

I'm sure there is a huge range of opinions on Sunday's at Northern, but an agreement would appear to be a very long way off after the latest discussions were concluded.

 

[Killingworth]

I'm sure many readers will recall days not so long gone when central door locking was still not universally fitted. I recall the old Tyneside electrics with sliding doors that many users found difficult to open or close resulting in them often running with partially open doors, sometimes fully open! I can't recall any accidents although there probably were some.

Have we swung too far the other way now? It's sometime most dangerous alighting from trains when a throng of impatient intending boarders with bikes and luggage swarm around the doors preventing the alighting crowd with bikes and luggage from getting off. Manchester Piccadilly 13 and 14 is just one example to cite, but it's much the same as trying to board a 12 coach Thameslink train in peak hours at Kings Cross/St Pancras. I struggle to see how DOO makes that significantly better or worse.

I recently travelled on a Northern 150 service. It picked up at least 6 bikes at it's first call to add to add to the 3 already in the front coach alone. Fortunately it wasn't an otherwise crowded service and was all very amicable but the conductor never appeared. 6 all got out at the next stop, a narrow platform that they started to cycle down past the conductor. Polite lads they dismounted when the danger was pointed out to them by fellow rail users. It must be a thankless task being a conductor when the public can't think through the dangers they put themselves in.

Policing the 2 bikes to a train policy on short hop services is a subject for another thread!

 

[Bikeman78]

I recently travelled on a Northern 150 service. It picked up at least 6 bikes at it's first call to add to add to the 3 already in the front coach alone. Fortunately it wasn't an otherwise crowded service and was all very amicable but the conductor never appeared. 6 all got out at the next stop, a narrow platform that they started to cycle down past the conductor. Polite lads they dismounted when the danger was pointed out to them by fellow rail users. It must be a thankless task being a conductor when the public can't think through the dangers they put themselves in.

On the face of it, riding along a platform is no worse for the cyclist than sharing a road with HGVs, which I do most days. The greatest risk is to other passengers who wouldn't really expect people to be riding along the platform.

 

[Killingworth]

On the face of it, riding along a platform is no worse for the cyclist than sharing a road with HGVs, which I do most days. The greatest risk is to other passengers who wouldn't really expect people to be riding along the platform.

The railway bye-laws used to be very lengthy and prohibited riding cycles in railway stations and on platforms. The latest editions seem to be much shorter.

The appearance of mountain bikes, bikes with very chunky tyres, electric bikes and electric scooters riding on some platforms certainly does add hazards. In recent months I've seen such chunky devices being ridden down stairs at several stations and wheelies being performed along narrow platforms. One of those in my illustration was about to do a wheelie and they'd indicated an intention to cycle down the stairs from the platform. We're in danger of cycling into a new thread.

 

[mandub]

Love how traincrew say they want Sunday in the working week, then do their best to input obstacles to ensure it doesn’t happen.

Drivers at ScotRail also say they’re up for Sunday as part of the working week, the rocks will melt in the sun before they accept any proposal that made it happen. And why would they? Why should they even? You get most of your Sundays off, a good chance of ensuring any specific Sunday off, and also hold a load of power should the company piss you off about something by refusing overtime.

It all a big game.

At Northern on the west we don't actively want Sundays but nearly everyone thinks it's coming & accept this.
It would've gone through for the guards if it was just a vote on Sundays in the week only.
The same would be true for the drivers if they put forward a vote for Sundays in the week alone.
They did not for the guards and will not for the drivers.
They will tie it in with wider restructuring changes that are more controversial & unwanted and often unclear what impact they will have on work/life balance.
We find it baffling

 

[mangad]

A guard has to physically go to the side of the train they are releasing, release the local door and step out onto the platform before releasing. This means there's a physical check that it's not wrong side.

I was stood at the door the other day waiting to alight. Had to move slightly as the guard needed to open the doors. Being nosey I watched exactly what he did. And I can tell you he definitely didn't step out on the platform!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 10:45 ==

Every time I travel with Northern (west side) whilst the conductor/guard selling tickets then finds a set of doors that they can get to and open the doors...

This, a thousand times, this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was stood at the door the other day waiting to alight. Had to move slightly as the guard needed to open the doors. Being nosey I watched exactly what he did. And I can tell you he definitely didn't step out on the platform!

Which TOC was this? Northern definitely do. He probably released the local door then let you off before going back to release the rest.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I was stood at the door the other day waiting to alight. Had to move slightly as the guard needed to open the doors. Being nosey I watched exactly what he did. And I can tell you he definitely didn't step out on the platform!

A recent Method of Work change at Northern has meant that conductors are no longer required to step out before opening, IF the platform is clearly visible from the door.

 

[mangad]

Which TOC was this? Northern definitely do. He probably released the local door then let you off before going back to release the rest.

Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern.

Then either you missed some of the process (most likely) or it wasn't carried out correctly (unlikely).

 

[mangad]

Then either you missed some of the process (most likely) or it wasn't carried out correctly (unlikely).

All I can tell you is I wasn't the first one off and he hadn't got off the train before I did.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 12:31 ==

A recent Method of Work change at Northern has meant that conductors are no longer required to step out before opening, IF the platform is clearly visible from the door.

It very much was visible. I could see it myself

 

[ModernRailways]

Love how traincrew say they want Sunday in the working week, then do their best to input obstacles to ensure it doesn’t happen.

Northern has East & West (plus ex TPE). East side is largely in favour of Sundays because as it stands you typically work them anyway as forced overtime. As it’s overtime you cannot guarantee the day off, you cannot book it off and you rely on someone being able to cover it. If it was part of the working week then this wouldn’t be the case and would be subject to usual annual leave.

I was stood at the door the other day waiting to alight. Had to move slightly as the guard needed to open the doors. Being nosey I watched exactly what he did. And I can tell you he definitely didn't step out on the platform!

Guards never have had to step out as long as they have checked the train is accommodated amongst other checks.
There has been a recent clarification, and minor update to help push this as trainers have always said to step out at every stop before release. This was purely the preferred option but was not required. The latest clarification is for slam door units, units with droplights and bay platforms. Guards no longer needed to step off, or open a door if they can see the full train is accommodated. A quick glance forwards (and back, if required) is all that is needed. They still do need to step off for dispatch but for a station arrival that is no longer required. This is aimed at speeding things up and stopping the (sometimes large) delay between the train stopping and the doors being released.

There has also been a tightening of the doors closing t-30 before departure as some guards had different interpretations. I’m unsure how they had a different understanding as I believe it quite clear…

 

[Starmill]

Then either you missed some of the process (most likely) or it wasn't carried out correctly (unlikely).

It's not a requirement to step off any more.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 minutes ago ==

Guards never have had to step out as long as they have checked the train is accommodated amongst other checks.

Technically, it wasn't a hard requirement. Most conductor managers however instructed that the only correct way to comply with the accommodation checking procedure was to put your feet on the platform before giving full door release. So it was a de facto part of the process.

The new wording has left many conductors less confident of releasing the doors than prior to the change as a result of the mixed messaging. I would be quite surprised if it achieved the desired outcome. Also it seems some conductor managers don't agree with it.