Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Auld reekie]

A good way to kill time - get on, spend the next two hours and twenty minutes taking in the sights (both good and bad) of the city, then get off where you started from. On Sundays, it took two hours to do the full circle.

Shame they stopped it.

 

[DunsBus]

Shame they stopped it.

The public explanation given for the stopping of the circles was that you couldn't turn a circle bus short if it was running late. The real reason was that the then LB management didn't believe in circle routes and by splitting them, revenue could be increased as a journey that took one bus before now needed a change of bus en-route. It was a way of increasing day ticket sales.

 

[Auld reekie]

The public explanation given for the stopping of the circles was that you couldn't turn a circle bus short if it was running late. The real reason was that the then LB management didn't believe in circle routes and by splitting them, revenue could be increased as a journey that took one bus before now needed a change of bus en-route. It was a way of increasing day ticket sales.

The usual money talks.

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

The usual money talks.

It's always money first passengers second with bus companies it seems

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The public explanation given for the stopping of the circles was that you couldn't turn a circle bus short if it was running late.

Though I do feel even if that wasn’t a valid reason then, it probably would be now. The traffic is awful most of the time now and these circles would constantly have to turn into the bus behind.

 

[DunsBus]

It's always money first passengers second with bus companies it seems

Always been the case, even more so since 1986 - if services don't make money then they get stopped.

 

[stevenedin]

927 appears to have been moved to Marine

 

[VioletEclipse]

927 appears to have been moved to Marine

It's on a tour of all the city depots before it departs ahah

 

[NorthEastern]

The public explanation given for the stopping of the circles was that you couldn't turn a circle bus short if it was running late. The real reason was that the then LB management didn't believe in circle routes and by splitting them, revenue could be increased as a journey that took one bus before now needed a change of bus en-route. It was a way of increasing day ticket sales.

I can understand the pressure to increase day ticket sales but I think it would be better for passengers (maybe not the sales part of the balance sheet) if their standard ticket was valid for 90 mins and allowed one transfer to another service. That would mean that the operator wouldn’t have to try and establish routes that reached many parts of the city, but carried minimal passengers, when two services would cover it. Some UK operators (apart from LB) already do this. What do others think?

 

[zjsptgzxyspks]

This would similar to the Singapore or Australia models where all modes of transport and all operators and train/tram/buses under the same umbrella with same tickets regardless of the operators. The Singapore model charges each journey by total distance with a saturating curve (connections within 2 hours regarded as the same journey) whereas in Australia a single ticket is valid for 2 hours inclusive of connections made within the time window and doing 2 separate journeys it's charging effectively a day ticket. These options are way better than the £2 cap they're going to introduce.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I can understand the pressure to increase day ticket sales but I think it would be better for passengers (maybe not the sales part of the balance sheet) if their standard ticket was valid for 90 mins and allowed one transfer to another service. That would mean that the operator wouldn’t have to try and establish routes that reached many parts of the city, but carried minimal passengers, when two services would cover it. Some UK operators (apart from LB) already do this. What do others think?

I can't really see the attraction of single tickets being valid for a brief time period when day tickets and Ridacards on Lothian are already pretty cheap. Virtually everyone travels both there and back on the same day (so would need two singles as a minimum, £4.80 at today's prices). And a day ticket offers more flexibility because it can be handy for any extra trips throughout the day/night.

There might be complaints when journeys are delayed and you're into minute 91 and get stung for another single journey in addition to being late at your destination.

Also, transferring onto another bus service is generally a bit rubbish for passengers as it wastes time with boarding/alighting and connections don't always work smoothly, making the longer routes advantageous.

 

[R Scandle]

It's on a tour of all the city depots before it departs ahah

Appeared to be broken down on the westbound side of the A1 between Dolphingstone and Wallyford (and not in the emergency lay-by) at teatime last Friday, en-route back to Marine ex-X26.

 

[Butts]

Do no Lothian services actually go into Ingliston Park and Ride now and onto the Airport like they used to.

Looking to dodge the "Tram Premium" by getting off there and getting a free ride to the Airport.

Seems you have to walk to Eastfield Road now ?

 

[paravostok]

Do no Lothian services actually go into Ingliston Park and Ride now and onto the Airport like they used to.

Looking to dodge the "Tram Premium" by getting off there and getting a free ride to the Airport.

Seems you have to walk to Eastfield Road now ?

Same with some Ember services, seem to be a theme with the various park and rides around Edinburgh, the only one I believe is still directly served is Hermiston

 

[danielhogg2005]

Same with some Ember services, seem to be a theme with the various park and rides around Edinburgh, the only one I believe is still directly served is Hermiston

Sheriffhall & Wallyford are also directly served by Lothian too.

 

[paravostok]

Sheriffhall & Wallyford are also directly served by Lothian too.

Not to be pedantic but technically both aren't Edinburgh, one is Midlothian and the other East Lothian

 

[Scotrail314209]

Is somebody able to break down what exactly the new buses are for? Are they just for East Coast and City, or are Country expected to get a fair chunk too?

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Do no Lothian services actually go into Ingliston Park and Ride now and onto the Airport like they used to.

Looking to dodge the "Tram Premium" by getting off there and getting a free ride to the Airport.

Seems you have to walk to Eastfield Road now ?

Unless you count the X12/X22 when Rugby is on, unless they cut back back to the Gyle..

The only solution to avoid the Tram Premium otherwise is just getting a ridacard, the weekly Tap Tap Cap works on the Airlink with no extra charge but I'm unsure if the Tram have the same rules given they have different Airport Fares, honestly it's complicated enough as it is, becuase this makes the Airlink more value for your money.

Same with some Ember services, seem to be a theme with the various park and rides around Edinburgh, the only one I believe is still directly served is Hermiston

Imagine if Hermiston closes down and all the services omit through it

 

[route101]

Do no Lothian services actually go into Ingliston Park and Ride now and onto the Airport like they used to.

Looking to dodge the "Tram Premium" by getting off there and getting a free ride to the Airport.

Seems you have to walk to Eastfield Road now ?

I thought the 17 and 18 called into the Park and Ride. Has that changed recently?

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I thought the 17 and 18 called into the Park and Ride. Has that changed recently?

Last service change they literally took them out so they would remain on Eastfield Road.

 

[scosutsut]

Is somebody able to break down what exactly the new buses are for? Are they just for East Coast and City, or are Country expected to get a fair chunk too?

Diesel orders:

• 60x Volvo B8L / Alexander Dennis Enviro 400XLB (12.8m variant, single door)
• 20x Volvo B8RLE / MCV Evora (unconfirmed lengths)
• Both of the above were confirmed in a RouteOne article
• That the "majority" of above orders for Lothian Country & East Coast Buses with some B8Ls for Airlink (same source as above)

ScotZEB3 funding was awarded for:

• 40x Volvo BZL / Alexander Dennis 400EV
• 20x Wright Electroliner
• Transport Scotland Announcement

What I believe is unconfirmed but rumoured / theorised:

• The BZL / Electroliner order is not placed yet, due to McGills legal challenge against ScotGov on ScotZEB3 criteria
• The current B8Ls on Airlink will cascade to City after refurb
• All or the majority of the B8RLE Evora order is for ECB
• That some of the B8RLEs might be for City if not
• Some of the B8RLE Evora's maybe shorter lengths to suit ECB council contract routes 120/1/3
• That the B8RLE Evora's for ECB will replace all existing singles - E200 MMC, B7RLE/Eclipse 2, B8RLE/Eclipse 3.
• The Eclipse 3s are going to City (51 first in refurb right now)

What I'd add from my own thinking:

• I'd expect B9TLs to be fully retired by end of this at both LCB & ECB
• ECB fleet being B5TL, B8L, B8RLE only
• LCB fleet being B5TL, B5LH, B8L only

A lot of this is from memory, so if anyone wants to correct me please do!

 

[Bus9120UK]

The most up to date on the B8RLEs are that they are a 15/5 split all at 12.9m. 15 for Musselburgh and 5 for Longstone.

B8Ls are 17 East Coast buses, then approx 18 Airlink, 25 Lothian Country?

 

[Lx008]

The most up to date on the B8RLEs are that they are a 15/5 split all at 12.9m. 15 for Musselburgh and 5 for Longstone.

B8Ls are 17 East Coast buses, then approx 18 Airlink, 25 Lothian Country?

This would make sense.

LCB has to replace:
4 10-plate B9TL
18 ex London short B9TL

ECB has open to replacement:

15 B8RLE Eclipse 3
2 B7RLE Eclipse 2
3 E200MMc
5 B9TLs


So I would assume a at least 1 for 1 replacement of B9TLs at LCB plus maybe some growth.

ECB is more difficult, personally I would have assumed 16 12.9m and 4 9.8m Evoras, however if they are indeed 15 12.9m, I would assume the eclipse 2 and e200mmc stay.

As for the ECB deckers, this would be big growth so I’d assume some of 1051-1062 (if not all) of ours be cascaded back to city buses (they didn’t get the interior changes like 497-510

 

[LothianBusesPh]

All of the Evoras are the same length

 

[Bus9120UK]

This would make sense.

LCB has to replace:
4 10-plate B9TL
18 ex London short B9TL

ECB has open to replacement:

15 B8RLE Eclipse 3
2 B7RLE Eclipse 2
3 E200MMc
5 B9TLs


So I would assume a at least 1 for 1 replacement of B9TLs at LCB plus maybe some growth.

ECB is more difficult, personally I would have assumed 16 12.9m and 4 9.8m Evoras, however if they are indeed 15 12.9m, I would assume the eclipse 2 and e200mmc stay.

As for the ECB deckers, this would be big growth so I’d assume some of 1051-1062 (if not all) of ours be cascaded back to city buses (they didn’t get the interior changes like 497-510

The repaint plan (visible at Seafield during the tour) indicated 461-463 and 1051-1062 will all be going through for madder paint indeed.
It means, at least for now, no growth can be expected on either side. I am disappointed by that but hope it changes later on.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

195 won’t be replaced as well. Either 195 stays as a spare, another vehicle replaces it, or it’s removed without replacement.

There’s 5 B9TL’s, 12 B5TL’s, 14 Eclipse3’s and 2 Eclipse2’s that could be replaced. Deckers is balanced but the single decks are not quite.

 

[alexf380]

There’s 5 B9TL’s, 12 B5TL’s, 14 Eclipse3’s and 2 Eclipse2’s that could be replaced. Deckers is balanced but the single decks are not quite.

Unless they're expecting the higher availability of brand new buses to replace the 16 current singles with 15 new singles?

 

[Bus9120UK]

I think 195/6 will both stay as they are. To remove 196 feels like a short term aim based on present peak vehicle requirements without much thought for the future. Even if 195 or 196 is surplus for some time, that extra vehicle would well be suitable relief for the lesser reliable 191-193.
I can't see them trimming the single deck fleet size further though as I say. I think the absence of both from the repaint plan is the best evidence for that.

 

[Lothianbus703]

I think 195/6 will both stay as they are. To remove 196 feels like a short term aim based on present PVR without proper thought for the future. Even if they are surplus for a some time, that extra vehicle would well be suitable relief for the lesser reliable 191-193.
I can't see them trimming the single deck fleet size further though as I say. I think the absence of both from the repaint plan says it a lot.

191-193 are more likely to stay given their special purpose at East Coast that the Evoras will not be suitable for.

 

[Bus9120UK]

191-193 are more likely to stay given their special purpose at East Coast that the Evoras will not be suitable for.

Yes 191-193 would stay, but there is always at least one that is on long absence. For a while that was 193, now it's 192 which has been gone nearly two months. That's what I mean by relief.