What will GBR's line on penalty fares and first class be?

[Bletchleyite]

There's no such thing as a Penalty Fares licence under the current iteration of the legislation. Provided the statutory rules are followed a TOC in England can charge Penalty Fares. As every TOC transferring into DfTO will eventually become part of a single GBR operation, it seems inevitable that a corporate Penalty Fares policy will need to apply at some point. This won't be on day one but at some point 'Avanti' won't be a separate legal entity.

I suspect GBR will probably just adopt Penalty Fares nationally. The only non-OAO TOCs that now don't do them in England are, if I've got this right, XC, Avanti and LNER, and there's not really any reason it'd be an issue if they did have them, it's probably just that their swingeing Anytime fares are deterrent enough without adding fifty quid on top.

It is entirely possible, however, for a national railway operator to have some services with penalty fares or equivalent and some not. Switzerland did for many years, but they are now applied to all services, though there's a slight difference between DOO regional services and guarded long distance ones in that in the latter case there is a small amount of discretion but in the former case it's strict liability even if e.g. there was no means of paying - in that case you're expected to use your phone. Germany similarly did and may still do, I'm not sure. Austria has a bit of a hybrid system on long distances in that a smaller supplement (I think EUR10?) is charged to pay on board but it is legitimate to accept that and do so, a bit like Edinburgh trams.

I would imaging First Class would also at the very least become a line of route policy for the same reason (although of course on the WCML south there is no longer any LNW First Class accomodation)

In BR days there was a mix of services with 1st and services not. Generally London commuter services and InterCity had first, but regional services didn't. WCML IC having 1st and the ex-LNR services not doesn't seem at all incongruous with that, other than that I suppose there's a chance that if the Trent Valley services are more integrated with the IC ones it might be reinstated there, the units after all have something that could be it.

The one that probably does need to be standardised across IC operations, however, is whether Standard Premium remains a thing or not. I can kind of see the argument both ways on that.

 

[Sorcerer]

InterCity trains should certainly retain first class, but anything below probably shouldn't. Maybe some regional express services if you consider TPE to be of that category, though I would argue Liverpool to Newcastle and the Manchester to Scotland services lean intercity and would probably be classed as such. Standard Premium I am not sure about because while I'd lean towards fewer classes in the interest of balancing capacity with revenue, standard premium might genuinely have value. I wouldn't be surprised if something between that and first class becomes the sole premium option in the long-term future.

 

[Mainline421]

InterCity trains should certainly retain first class, but anything below probably shouldn't.

It's free revenue and encourages more people onto public transport, I don't see a downside to offering it

 

[Sorcerer]

It's free revenue and encourages more people onto public transport, I don't see a downside to offering it

At the moment the UK network does not need to encourage people to travel on it because the demand is already outstripping the supply, hence partly why fares are so expensive. I also don't see how offering first class on a regional service will make it anymore attractive compared to a long-distance intercity service with journey times into the hours and the chance to actually enjoy a proper premium experience beyond a slightly larger seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also don't see how offering first class on a regional service will make it anymore attractive compared to a long-distance intercity service with journey times into the hours and the chance to actually enjoy a proper premium experience beyond a slightly larger seat.

The larger seat is desirable in itself, particularly the 1 side. That's Standard Premium, and 1st in most European countries.

It only pays if you can charge roughly 60% more for it, though, as it takes up roughly that extra space.

 

[RGM654]

At the moment the UK network does not need to encourage people to travel on it because the demand is already outstripping the supply, hence partly why fares are so expensive. I also don't see how offering first class on a regional service will make it anymore attractive compared to a long-distance intercity service with journey times into the hours and the chance to actually enjoy a proper premium experience beyond a slightly larger seat.

Some shorter-distance services have exactly the same seats but it can still be worth paying the extra for a much better chance of actually getting a seat.

 

[Dr Day]

At the moment the UK network does not need to encourage people to travel on it because the demand is already outstripping the supply, hence partly why fares are so expensive

Maybe on a few routes at certain times of day, but there are still plenty of spare seats around the network even around London. Part of the reason fares are ‘expensive’ is that costs are high, and the market can bear pricing them at those levels.

The challenge is the spare capacity (seats or track) tends to be where and when not many people/goods want to travel, and where extra capacity is needed it isn’t economically worthwhile to provide it.

 

[Adam Williams]

The one that probably does need to be standardised across IC operations, however, is whether Standard Premium remains a thing or not. I can kind of see the argument both ways on that.

You know, I think we should actually add yet another travel class which isn't first class in the fares data to sit alongside (below?) Standard Premium above Standard Class and below First Class. I think this will really greatly help simplify ticketing, as it's far too complex for passengers and retailers alike when things are well-defined, specified and consistent between operators.

 

[Djgr]

The one that probably does need to be standardised across IC operations, however, is whether Standard Premium remains a thing or not. I can kind of see the argument both ways on that.

Current rail operations are far too complex. Running three class trains adds to this complexity for both operators and passengers. Removing Standard Premiun would reduce complexity.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You know, I think we should actually add yet another travel class which isn't first class in the fares data to sit alongside (below?) Standard Premium above Standard Class and below First Class. I think this will really greatly help simplify ticketing, as it's far too complex for passengers and retailers alike when things are well-defined, specified and consistent between operators.

Presumably it's also a good idea to have 70 Minute Flex fares on which it's cheaper to buy a ticket for a different train than the one you want to use?

Current rail operations are far too complex. Running three class trains adds to this complexity for both operators and passengers. Removing Standard Premiun would reduce complexity.

I'm not sure it does in that sense. Indian Railways' very large number of classes sounds complex, but in reality it isn't in the sense that the offering within a given class is pretty much totally consistent, whereas what constitutes "first class" can be either a 2+2 ironing board with an antimacassar or a genuinely nice 2+1 leather seat with full meal service included. The idea of calling it First Class if you get a meal and Standard Premium if you don't is pretty solid - you know what you're buying then. And there is I think demand for the first class hard product European style without the freebies and massive price inflation.

So it's not *that* simple I'd say. Indeed, SP is just a recreation of what nasty old BR did with Weekend First - a dedicated coach with reduced service - it's just available 7 days a week instead of 2.

 

[py_megapixel]

The idea of calling it First Class if you get a meal and Standard Premium if you don't is pretty solid - you know what you're buying then.

I guess the problem with that is the TOCs would argue that you aren't paying for first class to get a meal, you're paying for the first class accommodation and if a meal happens to be served then lucky you, but it's "complimentary" and thus they don't have to provide it.

How does this work on Avanti? If first class catering isn't available will they readily refund you the difference between first class and standard premium?

 

[Sun Chariot]

Indeed, SP is just a recreation of what nasty old BR did with Weekend First - a dedicated coach with reduced service - it's just available 7 days a week instead of 2.

Mind you, Weekend First got me from Paddington to Penzance, in summer of 1991, for only a tenner more than the price of my existing SuperSaver second class ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Mind you, Weekend First got me from Paddington to Penzance, in summer of 1991, for only a tenner more than the price of my existing SuperSaver second class ticket.

That's roughly £28 now. Paddington to Penzance is roughly the same as Euston to Penrith (similar name ) distance wise. Standard Premium upgrade for that is £40 which is certainly higher but has the benefit of being valid all week, not just on weekends. However the £10 wasn't reduced for shorter journeys but the £40 is, so I think we can say it's a vaguely comparable offering. There's also the complexity added by the various Advance options now.

 

[Sonic1234]

Presumably it's also a good idea to have 70 Minute Flex fares on which it's cheaper to buy a ticket for a different train than the one you want to use?

For the thinkers in this world, yes. Just like supermarket offers where buying smaller packs is cheaper per kg than larger packs, against all logic. Most people aren't thinkers, or don't care enough about rail fares or tinned soup or whatever, and pay up or don't buy it at all.

Not that I agree with LNER's fare trial in any way.

 

[Sorcerer]

In regards to the idea of multiple classes, I feel like this is something that can only be afforded when there is sufficient capacity to do so. On long-distance trains having a premium product can be quite worth it for those willing to pay the extra for a first class or even standard premium. But on local or short-distance services I question if the passenger journeys will be long enough to justify taking up carriage space on an already short train to include more premium seating. If the experience isn't any different it almost seems like wasted space, but if we had plenty of capacity this wouldn't be as much of an issue.