Railcard expire and Northern Rail prosecute

[zhouxuyong]

On 11 September 2024, I travelled from Huddersfield to Manchester Victoria. Since I had returned to China for the summer holidays, I was unaware that my railcard had expired by the time I came back. It was only when I was asked to show my railcard at Victoria that I realised it had expired — probably by no more than half a month. The ticket inspector was extremely angry and hostile, and even verbally abused me. I tried to explain the situation, but they still issued me a penalty notice. I noticed that the notice did not specify a fine amount, but I didn't understand what that meant at the time. Afterwards, I tried to contact the railway DRPU department by phone and email, but they told me nothing and just said to wait. Then in late December I moved house. In the first half of this year, I received a phone call saying I needed to pay, and only then did I find out I had been convicted. I subsequently paid the fine and applied for a statutory declaration. The statutory declaration hearing is scheduled for February next year. I had absolutely no intention of evading the fare, and I have been actively dealing with this matter throughout. However, the ticket inspector's extremely harsh attitude at the time is what caused things to escalate to this point. As an international student, a criminal record would be a devastating blow to my future immigration status. What should I do?

 

[Swedenorer]

What was the date of conviction?

 

[zhouxuyong]

The original hearing was April 2025 now I have a statutory declaration hearing which is Feb 2027

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 22:56 ==

What was the date of conviction?

The original hearing was April 2025 now I have a statutory declaration hearing which is Feb 2027

 

[MotCO]

Can you clarify what 'penalty notice' you were given? Usually you are either given a Penalty Fare (where you are fined £100 on the spot for an innocent mistake plus the cost of the fare, reduced to £50 plus fare if you paid within 21 days), or your details are taken and the rail company writes to you to ask for your side of the story.

Can you recall which it was?

 

[WesternLancer]

The original hearing was April 2025 now I have a statutory declaration hearing which is Feb 2027

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 22:56 ==


The original hearing was April 2025 now I have a statutory declaration hearing which is Feb 2027

I think we need to get you some advice on how best to make use of the Statutory Declaration process.

You don’t want to wait for a hearing in 2027 where you will just be found guilty again of the same offence (because you almost certainly were guilty of it I assume.

Advice here is usually to get the stat Dec witnessed by a solicitor for a modest sum (£10?) then submit it to the court, meanwhile you approach the train company in writing seeking to resolve the matter out of court before the case is heard again and the legal action is withdrawn.

Need to find a thread that explains all this for you to read and act on if it’s possible.

Or other experts might be able to set it out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 23:30 ==

You should also seek advice from your university student union advice service. They may be able to assist with the process or may have an arrangement with a local
Legal firm who could assist you at a reduced fee.
But if they don’t really know how to deal with rail fare legal work you may get more expert advice here.
Any legal firm ought to know how to deal with stat Declarations though I would think.

 

[zhouxuyong]

Can you clarify what 'penalty notice' you were given? Usually you are either given a Penalty Fare (where you are fined £100 on the spot for an innocent mistake plus the cost of the fare, reduced to £50 plus fare if you paid within 21 days), or your details are taken and the rail company writes to you to ask for your side of the story.

Can you recall which it was?

This is exactly the situation I want to explain. The ticket inspector that day had a very bad attitude, which was very unusual. They directly issued a prosecution notice with a reference number, rather than a penalty fare. So afterwards I had no idea what to do. I tried to contact the rail company, but they just told me to wait.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 23:50 ==

I think we need to get you some advice on how best to make use of the Statutory Declaration process.

You don’t want to wait for a hearing in 2027 where you will just be found guilty again of the same offence (because you almost certainly were guilty of it I assume.

Advice here is usually to get the stat Dec witnessed by a solicitor for a modest sum (£10?) then submit it to the court, meanwhile you approach the train company in writing seeking to resolve the matter out of court before the case is heard again and the legal action is withdrawn.

Need to find a thread that explains all this for you to read and act on if it’s possible.

Or other experts might be able to set it out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 23:30 ==

You should also seek advice from your university student union advice service. They may be able to assist with the process or may have an arrangement with a local
Legal firm who could assist you at a reduced fee.
But if they don’t really know how to deal with rail fare legal work you may get more expert advice here.
Any legal firm ought to know how to deal with stat Declarations though I would think.

The Statutory Declaration is already in process. The hearing in February next year is about the Statutory Declaration. After the Statutory Declaration, my conviction will be set aside, but the rail company will very likely prosecute me again, so I'm here seeking advice
I think university department is good way to ask for advice i will ask next week, thank you

 

[WesternLancer]

This is exactly the situation I want to explain. The ticket inspector that day had a very bad attitude, which was very unusual. They directly issued a prosecution notice with a reference number, rather than a penalty fare. So afterwards I had no idea what to do. I tried to contact the rail company, but they just told me to wait.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Saturday at 23:50 ==


The Statutory Declaration is already in process. The hearing in February next year is about the Statutory Declaration. After the Statutory Declaration, my conviction will be set aside, but the rail company will very likely prosecute me again, so I'm here seeking advice
I think university department is good way to ask for advice i will ask next week, thank you

It sounds to me like you were issued with a Travel Irregularity Report in September 2024 (not a penalty fare) for travel without a valid railcard.

This is often standard procedure for cases involving tickets discounted with a railcard when no valid railcard was held, so they can investigate if passengers have done this regularly and then work out what they owe which might be a larger sum than a £50 penalty fare.
They do not have to issue Penalty Fares if they think it should be investigated.

It doesn’t make much difference if the inspector’s attitude was unhelpful sadly. I suspect that didn’t help though as perhaps they didn’t explain the reason for what they were doing or what would happen next.

You later on rang / sent e mail to the railway company (Northern) but they told you to wait until you were contacted. They would have meant contacted by letter.
Do you have copies if any e mails you sent them and copies of any replies you received?

They then wrote to you in December 2024 about this but by that date you had moved address so you never got the letter.

You thus never replied to their letter so eventually they sent the matter to court and all the papers from the court went to the old address too.

Presumably you made no arrangements to have post sent to your new address after you moved, didn’t go back to your old address to look for post and you did not tell the railway company of your change of address?

Do you think the above is correct?

Let us know what the university advice service suggest you do or if they can help you directly.

Who was it who advised you to do the Statutory Declaration?
Was it someone at the court where your case was heard, or whoever phoned you trying to collect the money? Do you know who they were that telephoned you?

You could also get help with this from a solicitor (lawyer) who specialises in railway fares type work to help try to resolve this if you are unsure how best to do it yourself but you would have to pay them for that assistance. We can provide a list of firms who do this work if that is something you want to consider.

Sorry to ask you lots of questions but it helps to know what happened and how it might be best for you to now best deal with it.

 

[Swedenorer]

What date in April 2025 please. Anyway by my calculation they had from September 11th until March 11th to take you to court so they might have been out of time in the first place. Try to establish what date they commenced proceedings if you can.

 

[Haywain]

What date in April 2025 please. Anyway by my calculation they had from September 11th until March 11th to take you to court so they might have been out of time in the first place. Try to establish what date they commenced proceedings if you can.

I am not an expert in court processes but I think it's too late for worrying about that. The OP has been convicted and, whether through the statutory declaration process or something else, will need the courts to reset the process. In any event, it is quite likely that the papers were laid before the court ahead of the 6-month deadline with the hearing taking place not long after.

 

[zhouxuyong]

It sounds to me like you were issued with a Travel Irregularity Report in September 2024 (not a penalty fare) for travel without a valid railcard.

This is often standard procedure for cases involving tickets discounted with a railcard when no valid railcard was held, so they can investigate if passengers have done this regularly and then work out what they owe which might be a larger sum than a £50 penalty fare.
They do not have to issue Penalty Fares if they think it should be investigated.

It doesn’t make much difference if the inspector’s attitude was unhelpful sadly. I suspect that didn’t help though as perhaps they didn’t explain the reason for what they were doing or what would happen next.

You later on rang / sent e mail to the railway company (Northern) but they told you to wait until you were contacted. They would have meant contacted by letter.
Do you have copies if any e mails you sent them and copies of any replies you received?

They then wrote to you in December 2024 about this but by that date you had moved address so you never got the letter.

You thus never replied to their letter so eventually they sent the matter to court and all the papers from the court went to the old address too.

Presumably you made no arrangements to have post sent to your new address after you moved, didn’t go back to your old address to look for post and you did not tell the railway company of your change of address?

Do you think the above is correct?

Let us know what the university advice service suggest you do or if they can help you directly.

Who was it who advised you to do the Statutory Declaration?
Was it someone at the court where your case was heard, or whoever phoned you trying to collect the money? Do you know who they were that telephoned you?

You could also get help with this from a solicitor (lawyer) who specialises in railway fares type work to help try to resolve this if you are unsure how best to do it yourself but you would have to pay them for that assistance. We can provide a list of firms who do this work if that is something you want to consider.

Sorry to ask you lots of questions but it helps to know what happened and how it might be best for you to now best deal with it.

I have copies of the emails I sent them and copies of their replies. I am not at all sure whether they wrote to me. I never received any letters. I had never encountered this kind of situation before, so I had no idea what to do at all. The university service cannot deal with matters outside the university. I researched the statutory declaration myself and then did it, because I had no idea at all about any of the subsequent timeline. The person who called me trying to collect money was CDER Group. At the time I had no idea what was going on. They told me I could ask the court. I then asked the court because I wanted to appeal, and they recommended that I make a statutory declaration. Please provide the list of law firms. Thank you.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for your reply and additional information - hope below may be of help to you

I have copies of the emails I sent them and copies of their replies. I am not at all sure whether they wrote to me. I never received any letters.

Thanks - I assume the letters (and paperwork from the court) would have gone to the address you had moved away from and you never got it. A court at least would only send hard copy paperwork as I understand it.

The e-mails may be helpful, depending on what assistance or advice you need - keep them all safe

I had never encountered this kind of situation before, so I had no idea what to do at all.

This is understandable. Many people who are permanent UK citizens would also have no idea I suspect

The university service cannot deal with matters outside the university.

This is bad luck

I researched the statutory declaration myself and then did it, because I had no idea at all about any of the subsequent timeline.

I will put some links to previous cases that have been on this forum involving Statutory Declarations which you can read through carefully which may help you understand more about the process and using it in the context of dealing with this sort of rail fare problem

The person who called me trying to collect money was CDER Group. At the time I had no idea what was going on. They told me I could ask the court. I then asked the court because I wanted to appeal, and they recommended that I make a statutory declaration.

I suspect CDER are perhaps the organisation who have the contact from the court to collect the court fine from you. These organisations are good at finding people eventually even when they have moved, so they have eventually tracked you down I suspect and that was when you first heard about. What date did CDER contact you and your first learn about this can you recall.

Statutory Declaration (SD) Cases from the forum

These may be of help to you to read through. Of course the issues that gave rise to the situation in each case will be different, but the advice on the SD process is what you want to follow to learn more about that.
For context it is worth noting ref any cases that involve Transport for London (TfL) they take a different approach than the railway companies in the TfL regularly prosecute most cases but the UK railway companies are more usually open to resolving matters out of court instead of court action.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ed-me-for-travelling-beyond-my-ticket.281294/
from posts #14 esp post 23, 27, 31

including post 24 here
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-for-an-expired-railcard.279332/#post-7098887

Post 22 here: (and subsequent discussion points that get clarified helpfully)
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/it-wasn’t-me-penalty-fine.279914/#post-7113419

TfL Prosecution - Misuse of Friend's Student Oyster - Rejection Email Received

Although this has been through the court system without your knowledge, and you could use a Statutory Declaration to have it reset and have the case dealt with again, the fees you might pay to a specialist solicitor would likely be more than the amount which you now owe, you will almost...

www.railforums.co.uk

You will see in several of these cases forum member @Puffing Devil has given specific advice about SD processes and how to make best use of them that may be of help to you.

Please provide the list of law firms. Thank you.

Reading the above linked threads might give you an idea of if you want to try to deal with this matter yourself. Otherwise here is a list of law firms

These are firms who have been mentioned on the forum with a track record of dealing with rail fares issues - I have never used any of them myself. Engaging one to help resolve all this will incur a charge for their work so you might wish to get them to give you a quote for what it would cost before committing to their services. This might cost £700 or more for that work
(This is not the same as the nominal fee for having an SD witnessed at a local solicitors firm mentioned in the thread) - it would be to deal with the whole situation on your behalf.
I don't think any of these are based in Manchester but I doubt that matters, they will be used to dealing with rail firms about things like this and I don't imagine it makes much difference where in England that is done from.

Manak Solicitors

https://manaksolicitors.co.uk/

Makwanas

www.makwanas.co.uk

http://www.grayhooperholt.co.uk/default.asp?id=30

https://penmansedgwick.com/fare-evasion/


Finally I am sure people here would try to help by giving you more information on any questions about all this that you may have.

 

[MotCO]

Manak Solicitors

https://manaksolicitors.co.uk/

Makwanas

www.makwanas.co.uk

http://www.grayhooperholt.co.uk/default.asp?id=30

https://penmansedgwick.com/fare-evasion/


Finally I am sure people here would try to help by giving you more information on any questions about all this that you may have.

The Statutory Declaration is already in process. The hearing in February next year is about the Statutory Declaration. After the Statutory Declaration, my conviction will be set aside, but the rail company will very likely prosecute me again, so I'm here seeking advice

Firstly, a question. Did you apply for the Statutory Declaration within 21 days of hearing about your conviction? If not, the SD may not be valid.

Once you have had the conviction set aside from the SD, there are two possible outcomes:

1. The rail company will again bring your case to Court, and you will be found guilty. The advantage of doing this is that the Court can set the fine based on your earnings income which you will be asked to supply. I note that you have already paid the fine, so I'm not sure what would happen then; or

2. The rail company will seek an Out of Court settlement with you which will be the full fare plus an admin fee. Given that you have inadvertently caused the rail company a lot of extra work, the settlement may be higher than the usual £150 or so + fare.

I note that, understandably, you are trying to avoid a criminal record. However, until the SD is heard we do not know what the next steps will be. If they insist on bringing it back to Court, that may be the time to use the services of a solicitor, hence it may be useful to speak to them in advance to line them up. Also, in advance of the SD hearing, it may be worthwhile speaking to the rail company to see if, hypothetically, they would be willing to consider an Out of Court settlement once the SD has been heard. In that instance, the advice from this forum should be sufficient to avoid the need for a solicitor.

 

[whirlybird]

You should also seek advice from your university student union advice service. They may be able to assist with the process or may have an arrangement with a local Legal firm who could assist you at a reduced fee.

I think university department is good way to ask for advice i will ask next week, thank you

The university service cannot deal with matters outside the university.

It sounds like you've spoken to your university's advice service, and not to your Students Union. Your university and your SU are two completely separate organisations, and it's much more likely that your SU will have an arrangement with a local law firm of the type that WesternLancer describes than that your university will.

Related to your student status -- you need to check your university's regulations regarding criminal convictions. You may be required to declare this to your university; you certainly would need to declare this at my local university, and yours may have the same rule.

 

[WesternLancer]

Firstly, a question. Did you apply for the Statutory Declaration within 21 days of hearing about your conviction? If not, the SD may not be valid.

Once you have had the conviction set aside from the SD, there are two possible outcomes:

1. The rail company will again bring your case to Court, and you will be found guilty. The advantage of doing this is that the Court can set the fine based on your earnings income which you will be asked to supply. I note that you have already paid the fine, so I'm not sure what would happen then; or

Helpful post here.

Presumably there is a process by which if an SD is accepted and the case re-set any fine paid is refunded as things 'start again'. Someone here familiar with court fines collection etc will probably know.

2. The rail company will seek an Out of Court settlement with you which will be the full fare plus an admin fee. Given that you have inadvertently caused the rail company a lot of extra work, the settlement may be higher than the usual £150 or so + fare.

Yes, though it may be more likely that the passenger needs to actively seek the Out of Court settlement rather than wait and hope Northern might just offer it it

I note that, understandably, you are trying to avoid a criminal record. However, until the SD is heard we do not know what the next steps will be. If they insist on bringing it back to Court, that may be the time to use the services of a solicitor,

hence it may be useful to speak to them in advance to line them up. Also, in advance of the SD hearing, it may be worthwhile speaking to the rail company to see if, hypothetically, they would be willing to consider an Out of Court settlement once the SD has been heard. In that instance, the advice from this forum should be sufficient to avoid the need for a solicitor.

This would seem to me to probably be worth doing as there can't be much to lose by doing this - although personally I would write or e-mail to do this so there is a written record of what is asked and what they say in reply
I would suggest any such written request is shared here as a draft before being sent, so that the OP can be helped to get the wording as good as it can be.

 

[zhouxuyong]

Helpful post here.

Presumably there is a process by which if an SD is accepted and the case re-set any fine paid is refunded as things 'start again'. Someone here familiar with court fines collection etc will probably know.



Yes, though it may be more likely that the passenger needs to actively seek the Out of Court settlement rather than wait and hope Northern might just offer it it




This would seem to me to probably be worth doing as there can't be much to lose by doing this - although personally I would write or e-mail to do this so there is a written record of what is asked and what they say in reply
I would suggest any such written request is shared here as a draft before being sent, so that the OP can be helped to get the wording as good as it can be.

Hello, I have read all of your comments. Thank you for your help. So what you mean is that before the Statutory Declaration takes effect, because the case has already been closed, the rail company will not accept any action, right? But after the Statutory Declaration takes effect, if the court hearing continues immediately, then the chances of the rail company withdrawing the case are also very small

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 21:58 ==

It sounds like you've spoken to your university's advice service, and not to your Students Union. Your university and your SU are two completely separate organisations, and it's much more likely that your SU will have an arrangement with a local law firm of the type that WesternLancer describes than that your university will.

Related to your student status -- you need to check your university's regulations regarding criminal convictions. You may be required to declare this to your university; you certainly would need to declare this at my local university, and yours may have the same rule.

No i have spoken to student union, they said they cant help but can help me contact some lawyers

 

[furlong]

Hello, I have read all of your comments. Thank you for your help. So what you mean is that before the Statutory Declaration takes effect, because the case has already been closed, the rail company will not accept any action, right? But after the Statutory Declaration takes effect, if the court hearing continues immediately, then the chances of the rail company withdrawing the case are also very small

That is why you must contact the train company ahead of time now to inform them what happened and that you will be doing a Stat Dec and to try to get them to agree in advance that they'll offer an out-of-court settlement when you do this. (Occasionally the train company will facilitate this by using a different procedure and applying to the court themselves - this tends to be when they feel the problem is largely their fault - for example if you told them your new address but they still used your old one or if you can argue that, given your earlier correspondence demonstrating your engagement with them, they should have emailed you when they didn't get a reply to an important letter to check you received it.)

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello, I have read all of your comments. Thank you for your help. So what you mean is that before the Statutory Declaration takes effect, because the case has already been closed, the rail company will not accept any action, right?

Yes, this is the risk. From other SD cases the rail company say along these lines 'there is nothing we can do now the court has sentenced you and levied a fine until the SD is accepted by the court' (but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to tell the railway company what you are doing now as @furlong suggests).

As you will see from the other threads I linked to, what needs to happen is for the SD to be made in such a way that it creates a decent window of time (at least a few weeks) before the case is heard again by the court, for you to then seek to persuade Northern to allow you to pay an out of court settlement (which Northern will be very likely to agree to) and then Northern will withdraw the court action before the new court date.
The matter is then effectively resolved out of court so no criminal record, no court fine etc

But after the Statutory Declaration takes effect, if the court hearing continues immediately, then the chances of the rail company withdrawing the case are also very small

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 21:58 ==

Yes, that is the problem as I understand it. There would be no time for you to ask for an out of court settlement and for the rail company (Northern) to withdraw the case. If the court hearing continues immediately you would be found guilty again (because you travelled with a ticket that was not valid on the occasion concerned) and that is a 'strict liability' offence (ie if you did it, you are guilty)

No i have spoken to student union, they said they cant help but can help me contact some lawyers

Ref this - I am sure any lawyer the Student Union recommend would be able to do things like the SD process.
However, forum members would usually recommend that if you want a lawyer to handle all of this issue for you then it is better to use one familiar with rail fare offences work.
You can search the forum for what people who have used the firms listed say about them and have used them for. I suspect the firm mentioned the most here is Manak Solicitors, probably followed by Makwanas.

Be mindful of the time limit mentioned above because the clock is ticking from the 21 days you first found out about all this (probably when you were phoned by CEDR) and have to make the SD, although perhaps the paperwork about the SD that you have sent off covers that aspect, but I don't know if it does or not.

 

[zhouxuyong]

Yes, this is the risk. From other SD cases the rail company say along these lines 'there is nothing we can do now the court has sentenced you and levied a fine until the SD is accepted by the court' (but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to tell the railway company what you are doing now as @furlong suggests).

As you will see from the other threads I linked to, what needs to happen is for the SD to be made in such a way that it creates a decent window of time (at least a few weeks) before the case is heard again by the court, for you to then seek to persuade Northern to allow you to pay an out of court settlement (which Northern will be very likely to agree to) and then Northern will withdraw the court action before the new court date.
The matter is then effectively resolved out of court so no criminal record, no court fine etc


Yes, that is the problem as I understand it. There would be no time for you to ask for an out of court settlement and for the rail company (Northern) to withdraw the case. If the court hearing continues immediately you would be found guilty again (because you travelled with a ticket that was not valid on the occasion concerned) and that is a 'strict liability' offence (ie if you did it, you are guilty)


Ref this - I am sure any lawyer the Student Union recommend would be able to do things like the SD process.
However, forum members would usually recommend that if you want a lawyer to handle all of this issue for you then it is better to use one familiar with rail fare offences work.
You can search the forum for what people who have used the firms listed say about them and have used them for. I suspect the firm mentioned the most here is Manak Solicitors, probably followed by Makwanas.

Be mindful of the time limit mentioned above because the clock is ticking from the 21 days you first found out about all this (probably when you were phoned by CEDR) and have to make the SD, although perhaps the paperwork about the SD that you have sent off covers that aspect, but I don't know if it does or not.

Thank you. I submitted the Statutory Declaration on the very first day I found out about all this. I consulted some law firms and the cost is around 1,000, but I don't have enough money at the moment. I may contact a lawyer again before the Statutory Declaration hearing next year to handle it. I have already emailed and posted letters to the railway company informing them that I have submitted the Statutory Declaration and that I hope to reach a settlement.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you. I submitted the Statutory Declaration on the very first day I found out about all this. I consulted some law firms and the cost is around 1,000, but I don't have enough money at the moment. I may contact a lawyer again before the Statutory Declaration hearing next year to handle it. I have already emailed and posted letters to the railway company informing them that I have submitted the Statutory Declaration and that I hope to reach a settlement.

Thanks. Let us know what the railway company say in reply to your letter / email to them.