Given PF on WMR last night, do I have a chance at appeal?

[lintz]

Last night I was travelling home from Euston to Rugby after an exhausting day and got on an earlier train during peak hours instead of off peak like my ticket was for. I had an super off peak anytime return ticket purchased for use that day.

The ticket inspector who issued the PF advised that I could appeal to pay the difference but the appealservice website is not sending me a confirmation email and a cursory investigation suggests that most appeals are denied.

In addition, I have seen that traveling without a valid ticket is a no ifs, ands or buts situation in terms of legality. I still have 20 days left to appeal, but considering what I've read, I am ill inclined to think that offering to pay the difference in fare would actually be successful, especially with going through the rigamarole of sending in my appeal via snail mail.

Should I bother trying to appeal by offering to pay the fare difference or is this a situation where I am going to get smacked in the face with the penalty?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@lintz. Welcome to the forum. Could you upload a photo of the Penalty Fare Notice? Please be sure to obscure or cover up any name and address and reference number that may be showing.

 

[lintz]

Here.

 

[WesternLancer]

Last night I was travelling home from Euston to Rugby after an exhausting day and got on an earlier train during peak hours instead of off peak like my ticket was for. I had an super off peak anytime return ticket purchased for use that day.

The ticket inspector who issued the PF advised that I could appeal to pay the difference but the appealservice website is not sending me a confirmation email and a cursory investigation suggests that most appeals are denied.

In addition, I have seen that traveling without a valid ticket is a no ifs, ands or buts situation in terms of legality. I still have 20 days left to appeal, but considering what I've read, I am ill inclined to think that offering to pay the difference in fare would actually be successful, especially with going through the rigamarole of sending in my appeal via snail mail.

Should I bother trying to appeal by offering to pay the fare difference or is this a situation where I am going to get smacked in the face with the penalty?

It may be that the ability to appeal on line is not yet 'in the system' if you were given this last night - but might be there in a day or two

That said, don't submit any appeal yet until PF experts on here have had a chance to look at this and give you advice.

I doubt that 'offering to pay the difference' is a valid basis on which to appeal, but there may be other valid reasons. It's possible that you might have been entitled to pay an excess fare to change your ticket from Off Peak to Peak (ie pay the difference) but it may be that this should have been done at the ticket office before boarding the train. However, it might be that this should have been offered on the train and the fact that it wasn't would be the basis for an Appeal. Ticket experts here will know if this is the case (and if this is the case I would think the Inspector on the train should have known too....).

Before submitting an appeal I would strongly suggest you get any draft wording checked here before sending it as people will be able to ensure it cites the relevant regulations that the appeal staff need to apply - from what I've seen on here you can't rely on those staff who handle appeals actually being properly trained in e finer points of rail ticket regulations, sadly.

 

[AlterEgo]

You can't be penalty fared in these circumstances. You should have been asked to pay the difference. As per the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

Where you:

9.5.1 are using a Ticket that is correctly dated but restricted for use at a range of times other than the service on which you are travelling (this does not include Tickets which are valid only on a specific timed train service or train services); or

9.5.2 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;

you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

That is the only remedy they can apply. Inspectors should know this.

 

[lintz]

You can't be penalty fared in these circumstances. You should have been asked to pay the difference. As per the National Rail Conditions of Travel:



That is the only remedy they can apply. Inspectors should know this.

So when writing my appeal, I should quote 9.5.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and advise that I was not given an opportunity to pay the difference at the time?

 

[WesternLancer]

Also - the prompt payment deadline is paused one appeal is submitted as it 'stops the clock' during the process - obv easier to monitor with on line appeals as time in the post is not in the equation.
Or you can pay the PF to ensure you don't lose that £50 discount as it would be refunded if the Appeal was successful

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@lintz. Which train did you travel on yesterday? Presumably the 1846 from Euston to Crewe or the 1856 to Birmingham New St?

 

[lintz]

The 18:56 to Birmingham New St.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Noted that the 1856 departure train was likely approaching Bletchley at the time the PF was issued (=1931?) Rugby not the next stop thereafter either. Perhaps one of the PF experts on here can advise whether this might be a valid grounds for appeal?

 

[lintz]

The inspector said that my ticket was only valid from 19:27 onwards, which doesn't make sense as there is a train from 19:16 that also goes to Rugby. The ticket restrictions on Trainline say that super off peak tickets are valid from trains departing the origin station (which is unclear whether that is specific to Euston or for every station) from 19:01 onwards.

 

[speedy1]

Noted that the 1856 departure train was likely approaching Bletchley at the time the PF was issued (=1931?) Rugby not the next stop thereafter either. Perhaps one of the PF experts on here can advise whether this might be a valid grounds for appeal?

AlterEgo already pointed out solid grounds for appeal in post #5 no?

 

[lintz]

My preliminary appeal details is as follows:

The ticket I had on this journey was a Super Off-Peak Return ticket purchased from Trainline.

According to clause 9.5.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (Where you are using a Ticket that is correctly dated but restricted for use at a range of times other than the service on which you are travelling (this does not include Tickets which are valid only on a specified timed train service or train services); you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

I was not offered the opportunity to pay the difference of my fare by the ticket inspector and instead charged this PF. I am happy to pay the difference instead of this PF.

 

[gray1404]

You have 2 grounds for appeal. You should have been entitled to pay the excess fare on board and it is not grounds for issuing a penalty fare.

Your penalty fare has been issued to Rugby. You should have been given the opportunity for it to only be issued to the next station the train was due to call at.

 

[ainsworth74]

I agree with everything that has been advised so far but I would suggest that Regulation 5(b)(2) requires that in writing a person be given: "an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare".

The use of the reason "Other" with no other written commentary would not appear to be compliant with that Regulation therefore the Penalty Fare is invalid for that reason also. You would think that the lack of an "Off-Peak Fare used during Peak Time Restriction" reason for them to tick on their ticket machine would have clued inspectors into that what they're doing isn't valid however you're not the first person to have been issued a PF for this spurious reason.

 

[lintz]

I agree with everything that has been advised so far but I would suggest that Regulation 5(b)(2) requires that in writing a person be given: "an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare".

The use of the reason "Other" with no other written commentary would not appear to be compliant with that Regulation therefore the Penalty Fare is invalid for that reason also. You would think that the lack of an "Off-Peak Fare used during Peak Time Restriction" reason for them to tick on their ticket machine would have clued inspectors into that what they're doing isn't valid however you're not the first person to have been issued a PF for this spurious reason.

Thank you for pointing that out, that's a good observation.

You have 2 grounds for appeal. You should have been entitled to pay the excess fare on board and it is not grounds for issuing a penalty fare.

Your penalty fare has been issued to Rugby. You should have been given the opportunity for it to only be issued to the next station the train was due to call at.

I see the fare amount is £31.40 and I cannot see any fare between London Euston and Rugby for this amount. So the inspector has made up a non-existent fare.

Could you explain what you mean by having the PF issued to the next station due? What does this incorrect fare ultimately mean for me as well?

 

[gray1404]

I would also encourage the OP to expect to have to appeal three times, having to repeat the same arguments, before they get any sense of the appeals bodies. It is only at the 3rd and final stage is the appeal considered by a body that is independent to the train companies.

I would encourage them not to give up just because they're appeal is rejected the first two times as it is so commonplace for this to happen and then have success on the third appeal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2026 ==

When a penalty fare is issued on board a train the customer has to have the opportunity to have it issued to the next calling point on that service. The idea being that this will result in the lowest possible penalty fare being charged. That does not mean it cannot be issued to a station that the train is due to call that later on, such as in your case here. However you have to be given the opportunity. Unless you are given that opportunity then it is not been issued in accordance with the regulations and is therefore invalid.

Your second question, you'll see that your penalty fare consists of two amounts. The fare for the journey (£31.40) and the penalty amount (£100).

 

[lintz]

Should I pay the PF first to avoid the cost of it increasing?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2026 ==

According to Penalty Fares 2018 Regulation 5(5A):

(5A) In respect of England, the penalty fare charged under paragraph (1) to a person travelling by or present on a train authorises a person to travel to—

(a)a station in England at which the train is due to make a scheduled call that they may specify, if the collector considers that this is reasonable in all the circumstances; or

(b)otherwise, the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call.

I presume the former has applied in this instance. I am unsure how the penalty fare would have been reduced had it been issued to Bletchley.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Should I pay the PF first to avoid the cost of it increasing?

At this stage, there's no need to do so: the 'clock' on the discount stops while you have an appeal in (although I think it restarts once you get a reply so for example the clock will run between you getting a reply to your first appeal, and you sending off your second appeal). As long as you keep an eye on it, you don't need to let go of the money yet.

 

[WesternLancer]

The inspector said that my ticket was only valid from 19:27 onwards, which doesn't make sense as there is a train from 19:16 that also goes to Rugby. The ticket restrictions on Trainline say that super off peak tickets are valid from trains departing the origin station (which is unclear whether that is specific to Euston or for every station) from 19:01 onwards.

It may depend on such things as whether it was an off peak single or an off peak return and I note there are off peak tickets valid on both Avanti and LNR/WM Trains and ones valid on just LNR/WM trains as well as the Super Off Peak fare
The whole range of fares listed here (almost certainly confusing....) but it's the restrictions listed against each ticket that should clearly state the rules

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

If you say what exact ticket you had (or upload a picture of it if you can) it might be easier for someone here to check for you.

That said, you already have sound grounds now to start drafting an Appeal based on @AlterEgo 's point about how this should have been handled - so if you start drafting that up people can check your wording. You have plenty of time yet to get it right given the 21 day deadline
Edit - draft now noticed in post above

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2026 ==

I see the fare amount is £31.40 and I cannot see any fare between London Euston and Rugby for this amount. So the inspector has made up a non-existent fare.

This fare?:

Purchase flexible walk-up fares for any British train journey

Purchase flexible single/return tickets & Travelcards – in 3 clicks, at face value with no fees. Every British rail fare shown, railcard discounts included.

www.brfares.com

Off Peak Single London Euston to Rugby LNR and WMR trains only

 

[lintz]

I have adjusted my appeal as follows:

The ticket I had on this journey was a Super Off-Peak Return ticket for LNR/WMR purchased from Trainline.

According to clause 9.5.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (Where you are using a Ticket that is correctly dated but restricted for use at a range of times other than the service on which you are travelling (this does not include Tickets which are valid only on a specified timed train service or train services); you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

I was not offered the opportunity to pay the difference of my fare by the ticket inspector and instead charged this PF.

In addition, according to Regulation 5(b)(2) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 stipulates (Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged - an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare);

The reason provided on my PF is listed only as 'Other' with no additional written commentary, which appears to contravene this regulation.

I am happy to pay the difference instead of this PF.

Here is a screenshot of the ticket:

The ticket restrictions are linked to https://www.thetrainline.com/ticket-restrictions/LG

 

[WesternLancer]

Your second question, you'll see that your penalty fare consists of two amounts. The fare for the journey (£31.40) and the penalty amount (£100). I have looked in the fares database all the fares possible between London Euston and Rugby and I cannot find a single fare for £31.40

See my post above ref this fare - unless I have got it wrong

 

[gray1404]

See my post above ref this fare - unless I have got it wrong

Well spotted, my apologies. I have amended my previous posts accordingly.

I have adjusted my appeal as follows:


Here is a screenshot of the ticket:View attachment 212855

The ticket restrictions are linked to https://www.thetrainline.com/ticket-restrictions/LG

So you paid £33.50 for a Super Off Peak Return Route: LNR & WMR ONLY between Rugby and London Euston. This was not valid on the train you took as it was not yet 1900 hours.

The cheapest ticket between Rugby and London Euston valid on the train you ended up travelling on was an Off Peak Return Route: LNR & WMR ONLY at £43.90 This was valid on the train you took as it was after 0845 hours.

You therefore should have been able to pay an excess fare to the inspector on board for the difference in fare of £10.40 An excess fare in the circumstances has the effect of converting your ticket from one ticket type to another.

 

[SuspectUsual]

@lintz I think you're making the right points in your draft response but perhaps it could be a little clearer in structure and reasoning. It also needs to end with a clear statement of what you expect to happen next

The ticket I had on this journey was a Super Off-Peak Return ticket for LNR/WMR purchased from Trainline.

According to clause 9.5.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (Where you are using a Ticket that is correctly dated but restricted for use at a range of times other than the service on which you are travelling (this does not include Tickets which are valid only on a specified timed train service or train services); you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

I was not offered the opportunity to pay the difference of my fare by the ticket inspector and instead charged this PF.

In addition, according to Regulation 5(b)(2) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 stipulates (Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged - an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare);

The reason provided on my PF is listed only as 'Other' with no additional written commentary, which appears to contravene this regulation.

I am happy to pay the difference instead of this PF.

For the two points (9.5.1 and written reasons) I'd say something like this, and then add a third reason if the consensus is that the fare charged was wrong.



(Normal preamble to a formal letter, reference number, wish to appeal the penalty fare etc)

Appeal reason 1 - no valid grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare

I accept I was travelling with a time-restricted ticket at a time when it was not valid. However, section 9.5.1 of the current Conditions of Travel states that the correct remedy in situations like this is for the difference in fares to be charged. It is not grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare. I have copied the relevant section below for your convenience and bolded the key phrases

9.5.1 are using a Ticket that is correctly dated but restricted for use at a range of times other than the service on which you are travelling (this does not include Tickets which are valid only on a specific timed train service or train services); or

9.5.2 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;

you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using

Appeal reason 2 - Penalty Fare missing legally required information

Regulation 5(b)(2) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 stipulates the following:

Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged - an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare

The reason provided on my Penalty Fare is listed only as 'Other' with no additional written commentary, which clearly contravenes this regulation and therefore the Penalty Fare is invalid

Please can you therefore confirm the Penalty Fare reference xxxxxxx has been cancelled, and advise me the amount owed as the difference between the fare I paid and the fare that was due and how I can pay this. I will then pay it immediately to settle this matter

Yours sincerely

 

[lintz]

There is a section at the top of the appeal form for my personal details, which is why they are not included in the main body.

Draft is now as follows:

To whom it may concern,

I am writing to appeal this Penalty Fare I have been issued for two reasons:

Appeal reason 1 - no valid grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare

I accept I was travelling with a time-restricted ticket at a time when it was not valid. However, section 9.5.1 of the current National Rail Conditions of Travel states that the correct remedy in situations like this is for the difference in fares to be charged. It is not grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare. I was not afforded the opportunity to pay the difference in situ and was not informed of the correct procedure, instead the ticket inspector advised that I would be able to make this appeal to pay the difference. I have copied the relevant section below for your convenience and bolded the key phrases

9.5.1 are using a Ticket that is correctly dated but restricted for use at a range of times other than the service on which you are travelling (this does not include Tickets which are valid only on a specific timed train service or train services); or

9.5.2 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;

you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using

Appeal reason 2 - Penalty Fare missing legally required information

Regulation 5(2)(b) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 stipulates the following:

Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged - an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare

The reason provided on my Penalty Fare is listed only as 'Other' with no additional written commentary, which clearly contravenes this regulation and therefore the Penalty Fare is invalid.

To conclude:

The cheapest ticket between Rugby and London Euston valid on the train I travelled on was an Off Peak Return Route: LNR & WMR ONLY at £43.90. This would have been valid on the train I took as it was after 0845 hours. As the Super Off Peak Return ticket I paid for was £33.50, I believe the difference in fare that I owe is £10.40.

Please can you therefore confirm the Penalty Fare reference xxx will be cancelled, and advise me the amount owed (if differing from my calculation) as the difference between the fare I paid and the fare that was due and how I can pay this. I will then pay it in good time to settle this matter.

Yours sincerely,

 

[WesternLancer]

There is a section at the top of the appeal form for my personal details, which is why they are not included in the main body.

Draft is now as follows:

points on the draft:

- it will need any Penalty fare ref numbers etc included but I'm sure you have that covered

- this bit I am not sure about

and advise me the amount owed (if differing from my calculation) as the difference between the fare I paid and the fare that was due and how I can pay this. I will then pay it in good time to settle this matter.

The Appeal service is supposed to be independent of the train company. So I am not sure that it is their role to calculate / check what you should pay and tell them how to do it. I would have thought that this is the role of the train company to deal with separately. It may still be worth mentioning it as per the draft perhaps - but it might be helpful if PF experts on here gave a view on this

- There may be a value in including an overt statement, perhaps at the start, about your overall basis for the appeal eg
'I am submitting this Appeal because I do not believe the Penalty Fare has been issued in accordance with the relevant regulations'

-------------------------
More generally

You will have perhaps picked up that forum regulars are sceptical about the likelihood of appeals being successful at the first stage, even when made on fully justifiable basis. Although we do occasionally see it happen....So you may need to use stage 2 or stage 3 in due course (even to state the same things again it seems), but that's for the future

So I would say as a general approach Appeals need to be made as easy as possible for the assessor to accept them, and as difficult as possible for them to justify rejecting them....I fear the staff handling them may do little in the way of cross checking regulations / ticket rules on validity etc etc

The amends from @SuspectUsual look good in that regard.

As you are not hard up against the deadline to submit it I would wait 24 to 36 hours to see if others pitch in with any edits (and maybe the online from will work by then?)

 

[furlong]

Your wording may be too loose.

Don't admit to having a ticket that was "not valid" or else they can seize on those words to justify upholding the Penalty Fare which you'd then have to pay and try to reclaim from the train company as compensation for a breach of contract in not selling you the Excess Fare which you were contractually entitled to buy.

Your appeal should be trying to take a short-cut to that process by arguing that you presented a ticket that was valid subject to the payment of an excess under 9.5.1 which you were willing and able to pay - and still are - but the opportunity to pay this was incorrectly denied to you. Contractually you should have been invited to pay this amount and having done so no PF could be imposed on you.

As already mentioned, it's not the role of an Appeal to determine how much else you might owe so you should cut out all discussion of that. Mentioning in passing that you're still willing to pay the excess that was due at the time is more than enough.

 

[AlterEgo]

Your wording may be too loose.

Don't admit to having a ticket that was "not valid" or else they can seize on those words to justify upholding the Penalty Fare which you'd then have to pay and try to reclaim from the train company as compensation for a breach of contract in not selling you the Excess Fare which you were contractually entitled to buy.

Your appeal should be trying to take a short-cut to that process by arguing that you presented a ticket that was valid subject to the payment of an excess under 9.5.1 which you were willing and able to pay - and still are - but the opportunity to pay this was incorrectly denied to you. Contractually you should have been invited to pay this amount and having done so no PF could be imposed on you.

As already mentioned, it's not the role of an Appeal to determine how much else you might owe so you should cut out all discussion of that. Mentioning in passing that you're still willing to pay the excess that was due at the time is more than enough.

I agree with this post. I'd formulate it in the way suggested. Cut out all the nonsense, focus only on the part which makes it unenforceable.

 

[Watershed]

It's concerning, though unsurprising, to see that this Penalty Fare has been issued by the same RPI as the PF in this thread. Based on the deeply unprofessional behaviour which I witnessed in that case, I have no doubt that she would have made the same false assurances about it being essentially a formality to appeal.

I would include a point about the PF automatically being issued to Rugby, when the next stop at the time of issuance was Bletchley. This makes a material difference, since the fare to Bletchley would have been only £25.50 - so the OP has effectively been doubly overcharged (once because it was a PF instead of the correct excess, and secondly because the PF was too high). If the PF has been issued to Bletchley they would have had the option of waiting just a small amount of time until the next valid service.

 

[lintz]

It's concerning, though unsurprising, to see that this Penalty Fare has been issued by the same RPI as the PF in this thread. Based on the deeply unprofessional behaviour which I witnessed in that case, I have no doubt that she would have made the same false assurances about it being essentially a formality to appeal.

I would include a point about the PF automatically being issued to Rugby, when the next stop at the time of issuance was Bletchley. This makes a material difference, since the fare to Bletchley would have been only £25.50 - so the OP has effectively been doubly overcharged (once because it was a PF instead of the correct excess, and secondly because the PF was too high). If the PF has been issued to Bletchley they would have had the option of waiting just a small amount of time until the next valid service.

The officer who issued me the PF was a man. There was a woman who was also on the route, presumably the woman in question. I have double checked the numbers and my number is slightly different from the one in that thread (the 3rd and 4th digits are swapped).

See adjusted draft below:

To whom it may concern,

I am writing to appeal this Penalty Fare I have been issued for two reasons that I believe mean it has not been issued in accordance with regulations:

Appeal reason 1 - no valid grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare

I was travelling with a ticket that would be valid subject to a payment of an excess. Section 9.5.1 of the current National Rail Conditions of Travel states that the correct remedy in situations like this is for the difference in fares to be charged. It is not grounds for issuing a Penalty Fare.

I was not afforded the opportunity to pay the difference in situ and was not informed of the correct procedure, instead the ticket inspector advised that I would be able to make this appeal to pay the difference.

I have copied the relevant section below for your convenience and bolded the key phrases

9.5.1 are using a Ticket that is correctly dated but restricted for use at a range of times other than the service on which you are travelling (this does not include Tickets which are valid only on a specific timed train service or train services); or

9.5.2 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so;

you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

Appeal reason 2 - Penalty Fare missing legally required information

Regulation 5(2)(b) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 stipulates the following:

Where a collector charges a penalty fare to a person under paragraph (1), the collector must provide that person with the following information in writing at the time the penalty fare is charged - an explanation of why the person is being charged a penalty fare

The reason provided on my Penalty Fare is listed only as 'Other' with no additional written commentary, which clearly contravenes this regulation and therefore the Penalty Fare is invalid.

To conclude:

Please can you therefore confirm the Penalty Fare reference xxx will be cancelled. I am willing to pay the fare excess owed in good time to settle this matter.

Yours sincerely,

I have forgone the formatting for this for the time being and have chosen not to include the point about Rugby and Bletchley, as ultimately the final destination was Rugby and I believe they would find that kind of hair splitting a point to rule against the appeal.