Future Class 73 replacement

[xotGD]

Are those maths right?

Wouldn’t a 99 work straight through and not be replaced at Waverley?

Exactly. The 92 that comes off at Waverley becomes a 99 that works through to Inverness or Aberdeen, thereby replacing a 73 too.

 

[37069]

I believe that some of the 99s will be fitted with ETS.
That is for the Royal Scotsman and the Pullman (from Victoria). I am not sure about the Belmond Britanic Explorer as that has generator coaches.
Use to cover the sleeper contract would just increase the cost effectiveness of ordering a ETS fitted version of the 99.

How much of a speed increase is required ?.
The sleeper does not go that fast. After all we do not want the passengers falling out of their beds AND we don't want them arriving too early for a decent nights sleep !.

The maximum speed of a 92 is 87 mph (140km/h).
The maximum speed of a 99 is 75 mph (120km/h) but can be raised to 100 mph.
Above according to AI and Wikipedia.

Royal Scotsman, like the Britannic Explorer, doesn't need an ETS-fitted loco as it has its own genny car.

The Belmond British Pullman rake also has a Mk. 1 genny van that is usually in the formation - but this is currently operated by DB Cargo, given the need for steam operation, which GBRf (currently) don't do.

As for the use of the 99xxx private owner coaching stock range - there's still a lot of vehicles registered on the main line under those numbers, so they would need renumbering if there was a clash, like WCRC Pullmans 325 and 326 were ahead of the Class 99s arriving. I think the 99/4 series would probably be pretty safe, if a subclass was used. Otherwise, I think the range from 99001 to 99050 was cleared ahead of the new locos being registered - the PRCLT's two support vehicles, 99040 and 99041 were certainly renumbered.

 

[Harlequinuk]

Are those maths right?

Wouldn’t a 99 work straight through and not be replaced at Waverley?

Lowlander Splits are Carstairs , with 8 to Edinburgh and 8 to Glasgow. Highlander Splits at Edinburgh with portions to Fort William, Aberdeen and Inverness. And the 2 southbound as well , so 5 on the beds (and ECS mov in London so 6) and 3 x 73s

 

[Bill57p9]

Exactly. The 92 that comes off at Waverley becomes a 99 that works through to Inverness or Aberdeen, thereby replacing a 73 too.

However in today's usual* operation the 92 that comes off at Waverley trundles over to Glasgow to haul the ECS back to Polmadie, so the only reduction in raw loco numbers would be the sheds.

(And the reverse southbound)

* Due to a current shortage of serviceable Dellner fitted 92s the Glasgow ECS moves are being hauled by 73967 with the Highlander 92 shared with the Edinburgh portion.

As has been stated though, "bed flakes" are speculation.

 

[XCTurbostar]

We might have had 31/4, 37/4 and 47/4, but we also had 45/1 and 27/2 as ETH sub-classes.

99101 onwards would make more sense.

99101 onwards is already used in TOPS for the Britannic stock. There may not be a new subclass - the 69s with ETS don’t have a different subclass.

 

[BorderCollie]

Which 69s have ETS?

 

[Rail Quest]

It would probably have to be that way round. I'm not sure a 99 on diesel has enough power to haul 16 carriages and provide ETS

Good point - half of all 16 coaches would be easier for the 99. Although it then it is not far I wonder what gradients are involved ?..

The sub has some quite steep gradients on it if Im not mistaken, though that may only be when travelling either of the directions rather than both. Having said that, the 99 diesel tests do seem to have been promising so far.

 

[train_lover]

To everyone who has mentioned the generator van on the Scotsman and Britannic. The generator is used because the 66 doesn't have eth. Replace the genny with a normal coach and you can get more punters on. As I've said previously. The last 10 99s have ETH fitted. This was planned some time ago.

 

[hwl]

You're going to have to explain this jargon I'm afraid.

The GBRf 73/9s (split between Caledonian Sleeper and Tonbridge for NR infrastructure) had new MTU diesel engines retrofitted and new traction electrical equipment retrofitted so are in much more capable all round compared to the remaining 73/1s based at Tonbridge.

Bob Tiller was GBRf's engineering director for many years before semi retiring and now fully retiring. Bob was the person behind the 73/9, 69 and 99 projects and refurbing moat 73/1s.

 

[brad465]

The GBRf 73/9s (split between Caledonian Sleeper and Tonbridge for NR infrastructure) had new MTU diesel engines retrofitted and new traction electrical equipment retrofitted so are in much more capable all round compared to the remaining 73/1s based at Tonbridge.

Bob Tiller was GBRf's engineering director for many years before semi retiring and now fully retiring. Bob was the person behind the 73/9, 69 and 99 projects and refurbing moat 73/1s.

I see, thanks for confirming. Could we then get a situation where should 99s replace the 73s with CS, the 73/9s with CS move to Tonbridge to bin off the 73/1s?

 

[43096]

GB have already ordered 10 ETH fitted 99s. This was the plan from day 1 as they are going on the Britannic and Scotsman

Britannic does not need ETH fitted locos. Which is evident from haulage arrangements now.

 

[43096]

To everyone who has mentioned the generator van on the Scotsman and Britannic. The generator is used because the 66 doesn't have eth. Replace the genny with a normal coach and you can get more punters on. As I've said previously. The last 10 99s have ETH fitted. This was planned some time ago.

The Britannic uses a different ETH system - the Irish system - hence why the genny van came over with it.

 

[37069]

To everyone who has mentioned the generator van on the Scotsman and Britannic. The generator is used because the 66 doesn't have eth. Replace the genny with a normal coach and you can get more punters on. As I've said previously. The last 10 99s have ETH fitted. This was planned some time ago.

The Royal Scotsman actually has two generator vans - both Mk. 3s, which are also in use as sleeping cars, one for customers and one for staff.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Britannic does not need ETH fitted locos. Which is evident from haulage arrangements now.

+

The Britannic uses a different ETH system - the Irish system - hence why the genny van came over with it.

Yes the Britanic Explorer (using former Irish Mk3s) has one generator coach.

The Royal Scotsman actually has two generator vans - both Mk. 3s, which are also in use as sleeping cars, one for customers and one for staff.

The only real excuse for using a 99 is to improve the green credentials for showing off to the very valuable customers. If they care.

 

[50002Superb]

Lowlander Splits are Carstairs , with 8 to Edinburgh and 8 to Glasgow. Highlander Splits at Edinburgh with portions to Fort William, Aberdeen and Inverness. And the 2 southbound as well , so 5 on the beds (and ECS mov in London so 6) and 3 x 73s

The Lowlanders don’t need to be 99s? They could still be 92s, as could the ECS movements involving WB and PO.

It’s only the Highlanders that are needed to replace using 92s / 73s / 66s.

 

[Bevan Price]

More 73s with modern traction electrical equipment for 3rd rail land then!

The biggest issue may well be Bob's retirement.

Or something converted from withdrawn EMUs and fitted with batteries ??

 

[Peter Sarf]

The Lowlanders don’t need to be 99s? They could still be 92s, as could the ECS movements involving WB and PO.

It’s only the Highlanders that are needed to replace using 92s / 73s / 66s.

I think there is a bit of inter-working so a 92 off a lowlander will end up on a highlander (or portions thereof).
Could be avoided by making the highlander and lowlander not use each others 92s but that would result in less efficient locomotive usage.

 

[Harlequinuk]

The Lowlanders don’t need to be 99s? They could still be 92s, as could the ECS movements involving WB and PO.

It’s only the Highlanders that are needed to replace using 92s / 73s / 66s.

The first 92`s will be 40 in 2033, and they are struggling now for reliability let along in 7 years time. it`ll be a class replacement with 99s on the sleeper.

 

[sad1e]

Or something converted from withdrawn EMUs and fitted with batteries ??

No chance any sort of Frankenstein 3rd rail loco could be pieced together from a modern EMU considering the amount of computerisation and software that goes into modern stock.

You can't even couple a 377 with a 387 or 379 without the software going crazy , no chance it would accept being Frankensteined into some sort of loco.

The last chance for making some sort of Frankenstein loco was from the now withdrawn Class 455 as they weren't nearly as computerised as anything modern but that boat has now sailed (no idea how computerised networkers are so I guess that could be a possibility) but I presume if any new 3rd rail loco is to come in to being it should have to be new build.

 

[Peter Sarf]

No chance any sort of Frankenstein 3rd rail loco could be pieced together from a modern EMU considering the amount of computerisation and software that goes into modern stock.

You can't even couple a 377 with a 387 or 379 without the software going crazy , no chance it would accept being Frankensteined into some sort of loco.

The last chance for making some sort of Frankenstein loco was from the now withdrawn Class 455 as they weren't nearly as computerised as anything modern but that boat has now sailed (no idea how computerised networkers are so I guess that could be a possibility) but I presume if any new 3rd rail loco is to come in to being it should have to be new build.

319s ?.

 

[Class15]

319s ?.

Agree with this.

 

[xotGD]

Using 66s to haul the sleepers with the 73 tucked inside to act as an ETHEL was an admission of failure of the plan to use 73s north of Edinburgh.

Replacing those lash-ups with ETH fitted 99s would simplify operations, make full use of electrification, and free up the 66s for freight work, where they belong.

 

[Tony73E]

The GBRf 73/9s (split between Caledonian Sleeper and Tonbridge for NR infrastructure) had new MTU diesel engines retrofitted and new traction electrical equipment retrofitted so are in much more capable all round compared to the remaining 73/1s based at Tonbridge.

Bob Tiller was GBRf's engineering director for many years before semi retiring and now fully retiring. Bob was the person behind the 73/9, 69 and 99 projects and refurbing moat 73/1s.

73/1's and 73/2's have not been refurbished and are very much original.

 

[hwl]

73/1's and 73/2's have not been refurbished and are very much original.

Refurbishment doesn't automatically imply upgrading equipment. GBRf have had all but about 2? of the /1 and /2 they have completely stripped down and rebuilt over the years. This was part of getting the NR contract for the 73s renewed.

 

[train_lover]

Britannic does not need ETH fitted locos. Which is evident from haulage arrangements now.

We'll come back to this in 12 months time

 

[43096]

We'll come back to this in 12 months time

What difference does 12 months make? Have you missed the bit about the Britannic's ETH system being the Irish type and therefore completely non-standard?

There might be a 99 on it in 12 months, but I'd be amazed if there is an ETH connection between loco and train.

 

[E100]

A good point is that the 99's will make use of electronification for a bit more when crossing the central belt from Edinburgh

 

[172007]

What difference does 12 months make? Have you missed the bit about the Britannic's ETH system being the Irish type and therefore completely non-standard?

There might be a 99 on it in 12 months, but I'd be amazed if there is an ETH connection between loco and train.

Is this ETH detail somewhat a red herring?

The Mk5 CAF Sleeper carriages each have an inverter that converts the 1000v DC to 240v AC 50hz for most electrical devices, galley, sockets etc from what i can make out. I am certain the only Britannic compatability issue is having an inverter installed tp go from DC to AC in the generator car and possibily the generator car being converted to more usuable space a weight savung with the absence of a generator and its fuel?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Long live the small ED's !

 

[Class15]

Great shots! What locations are they at?

Long live the small ED's !