How should the planned £50m be spent to improve Euston?

[Bletchleyite]

You don't get much on the railway for £50m. But how could it be spent?

As this is principally making available trains that have been sat there all along "Preparing", but in fact have blow all going on, one wonders just what the money for this will be spent on.

For Avanti one challenge for this is having enough gateline staff to deal with boarding, given that they still use humans to do this rather than a gateline (aside from P1-3)*. One way money could be spent to enable this would be rejigging the station to have a central gateline, or at least one per platform group, thus only requiring one or two people to supervise each rather than a whole revenue squad per boarding train. It would also reduce fare dodging on WMT trains - again this must be the only London terminus where open boarding is routinely available to commuter services (aside from 8-11 and the odd revenue block).

Having the toilets inside would also no doubt improve their condition by reducing misuse and vandalism.

I don't think it would be difficult or problematic just to put a gateline straight across under the departure board to be honest, and that would cover all platforms.

* Is this unique in the UK now? I think it might be. There are open stations e.g. Preston, but none of them have routine boarding checks done by humans for every train near enough.

 

[Sorcerer]

If dealing with the present station as it is now with no prospect of a rebuild, I would definitely say that the separation of inflowing and outflowing passengers through new entry and exits is a must. As it stands now the concourse is already rammed with people looking up at the boards waiting for their departure announcement, so having incoming passengers pour through here and creating even more overcrowding and flooding the bottlenecks of the platform ramps is an immediate matter that needs addressing. King's Cross got this principle right with it's separate departure concourse, and if I'm not mistaken, St Pancras too with it's Eurostar arrivals and departures.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If dealing with the present station as it is now with no prospect of a rebuild, I would definitely say that the separation of inflowing and outflowing passengers through new entry and exits is a must. As it stands now the concourse is already rammed with people looking up at the boards waiting for their departure announcement, so having incoming passengers pour through here and creating even more overcrowding and flooding the bottlenecks of the platform ramps is an immediate matter that needs addressing. King's Cross got this principle right with it's separate departure concourse, and if I'm not mistaken, St Pancras too with it's Eurostar arrivals and departures.

You could certainly do that at Euston by having a single gateline with entry gates on the left (facing the board) and exit gates on the right. Most outflow is to that corner where the Tube and buses are and it would aid it in keeping that area clear as people would prefer to wait nearer the gates.

As part of that I'd get rid of the mezzanine stairs that block that flow slightly and move them elsewhere - the middle of the concourse running sideways may be sensible. Maybe even consider an up-only escalator to encourage people to go up there out of the way (they can come down the stairs by the booking office).

Without a rebuild it would be very hard to do any more than that - you'd certainly be needing more like £500m, not £50m. The exit to the street out of the side gate from P16 was an annoying loss (commuters liked that one and were cross when it was closed during the Olympics due to tighter security, but was reopened afterwards) but that was only useful for one platform.

 

[pr1]

@Bletchleyite , I'd echo your post and rethink the ticket hall. It's size and shape doesn't fit modern expectations. If they are to find space for seating, put it there (with  actual plugs, and decent departure screens in  clear view).

 

[Bletchleyite]

@Bletchleyite , I'd echo your post and rethink the ticket hall. It's size and shape doesn't fit modern expectations. If they are to find space for seating, put it there (with  actual plugs, and decent departure screens in  clear view).

Indeed. A much smaller ticket office and bank of TVMs would be fine now. That could be in a corner of the existing area with the rest as seating, or it could be elsewhere. If you weren't going to do a single gateline one of the tunnel side retail units could probably be converted to something similar to that at New St, though if you were going to do a single gateline it would probably need to be where it is now, just reduced in size.

As a further alternative you could distribute TVMs around the station rather than a bank in one location, I suppose.

 

[alf]

Make Euston an easier station to get to & from by reinstating the pedestrian tunnel that was apparently one third built to connect Euston Square & Euston Underground stations.
They cancelled the one benefit for all Londoners from the HS2 project when it’s expenditure hugely ballooned & scared the Government.
It would have provided an easterly exit from the circle line, spreading the load on the trains, & allowed fast non ticket gate acccess between the northern & circle line stations.

 

[Sorcerer]

You could certainly do that at Euston by having a single gateline with entry gates on the left (facing the board) and exit gates on the right. Most outflow is to that corner where the Tube and buses are and it would aid it in keeping that area clear as people would prefer to wait nearer the gates.

As part of that I'd get rid of the mezzanine stairs that block that flow slightly and move them elsewhere - the middle of the concourse running sideways may be sensible. Maybe even consider an up-only escalator to encourage people to go up there out of the way (they can come down the stairs by the booking office).

Without a rebuild it would be very hard to do any more than that - you'd certainly be needing more like £500m, not £50m. The exit to the street out of the side gate from P16 was an annoying loss (commuters liked that one and were cross when it was closed during the Olympics due to tighter security, but was reopened afterwards) but that was only useful for one platform.

To be honest, part of me doesn't want to implement gatelines because in a station like Euston they seem like the sort of thing that would disrupt the flow of passengers. I actually like the idea of demolishing the ticket hall and expanding the concourse floor with just a simple ticket office and a few machines. I wondered if maybe any previous space beneath the concourse that could be converted into a dedicated exit pathway existed.

 

[Krokodil]

* Is this unique in the UK now? I think it might be. There are open stations e.g. Preston, but none of them have routine boarding checks done by humans for every train near enough.

Does Man Picc still have a mixture of automatic and manual checks for different platforms (albeit you can go between them once through)?

 

[Harpo]

the separation of inflowing and outflowing passengers through new entry and exits is a must.

Exactly what I was thinking. However, it would halve the footfall of the retail outlets so we know it can’t happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does Man Picc still have a mixture of automatic and manual checks for different platforms (albeit you can go between them once through)?

Ah yes, I forgot that nonsense. I reckon GBR will fix it fairly sharpish, just requires a run of about 5 more gates.

 

[Kite159]

Ah yes, I forgot that nonsense. I reckon GBR will fix it fairly sharpish, just requires a run of about 5 more gates.

Isn't the nonsense at Manchester getting fixed at some point (I seem to recall reading about it a few months ago when it was announced that more stations were getting ticket barriers like Manningtree). Hopefully GBR will resolve the issue with one set of gates being managed by TPE, another set being managed by Avanti with Northern having staff doing manual checks, to get rid of the stupid situation where the "Avanti" gates are in use but the "TPE" gates are wide open.

 

[ScottGallagher]

Indeed. A much smaller ticket office and bank of TVMs would be fine now. That could be in a corner of the existing area with the rest as seating, or it could be elsewhere. If you weren't going to do a single gateline one of the tunnel side retail units could probably be converted to something similar to that at New St, though if you were going to do a single gateline it would probably need to be where it is now, just reduced in size.

As a further alternative you could distribute TVMs around the station rather than a bank in one location, I suppose.

The gateline idea is really interesting but would ideally need all the kiosks currently there like Burger King to close and relocate to stop congestion and still have room for assisted travel buggys, perhaps to part of the ticket hall area like a mini food court , which used to exist!!

 

[mmh]

Is this unique in the UK now? I think it might be. There are open stations e.g. Preston, but none of them have routine boarding checks done by humans for every train near enough.

Avanti usually do at Glasgow Central. It would be horrendous if they didn't.

 

[MontyP]

Avanti usually do at Glasgow Central. It would be horrendous if they didn't.

Not sure what you mean - in my experience, Avanti never check tickets before boarding at Glasgow Central. It would be horrendous if they did, there is so often a minimal turnaround due to late arrival of the inbound. Boarding often isn't opened until 5 mins before departure

 

[Krokodil]

Not sure what you mean - in my experience, Avanti never check tickets before boarding at Glasgow Central. It would be horrendous if they did, there is so often a minimal turnaround due to late arrival of the inbound. Boarding often isn't opened until 5 mins before departure

I got manually checked onto the 04:28 train.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I got checked at Glasgow Central for the 15:40 earlier this week.

 

[Falcon1200]

Avanti never check tickets before boarding at Glasgow Central.

They do on occasion, but I would say it is rare for the train I use most often, the 0736, although this is a time when a check would be useful, to stop passengers for the 0800 getting on the 0736 by mistake!

I would agree that a, if not the, major issue at Euston is the hordes of alighting passengers having to get past the hordes of waiting passengers to reach the Underground or buses. Grade separation of some sort would be ideal, though difficult to achieve no doubt.

 

[Kevin51]

Make Euston an easier station to get to & from by reinstating the pedestrian tunnel that was apparently one third built to connect Euston Square & Euston Underground stations.
They cancelled the one benefit for all Londoners from the HS2 project when it’s expenditure hugely ballooned & scared the Government.
It would have provided an easterly exit from the circle line, spreading the load on the trains, & allowed fast non ticket gate acccess between the northern & circle line stations.

Can anybody explain why Euston Sq was built with the entrance and exit at the Western end of the station and not the Eastern end?

 

[Starmill]

They do on occasion, but I would say it is rare for the train I use most often, the 0736, although this is a time when a check would be useful, to stop passengers for the 0800 getting on the 0736 by mistake!

I would agree that a, if not the, major issue at Euston is the hordes of alighting passengers having to get past the hordes of waiting passengers to reach the Underground or buses. Grade separation of some sort would be ideal, though difficult to achieve no doubt.

It's very common for there to be a massive queue for Avanti departures blocking the rest of the concourse.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 22:02 ==

Ah yes, I forgot that nonsense. I reckon GBR will fix it fairly sharpish, just requires a run of about 5 more gates.

It'd be an incredibly awkward, costly job to do correctly because of the entrances at the track ends on 1 and 12-14. It would still be relatively easy to just do the buffer ends correctly of course, but loads of people currently walk straight around the other way.

 

[Kevin51]

I hate Euston. Why as a suburban passenger do I have to up the escalator, go out of the station then back inside again to join the masses on the concourse to see that the next Watford Junc trains is from 8, 10 or 11. There used to be working displays at the underground exit gates so that you could go straight to the suburban platforms if that was where the next suburban train was departing from. Why do they have to mix all the LNW passengers up with Avanti passengers.

 

[Mr. SW]

Can anybody explain why Euston Sq was built with the entrance and exit at the Western end of the station and not the Eastern end?

Shenanigans. The London and North Western Railway didn't want the Metropolitan Railway anywhere near it. The station was originally called Gower Street just to make sure. The Met was also making overtures to the Great Western Railway at the time of construction so having even the most tentative possibility of a GWR station on its doorstep would be of concern, particularly with rival services to Birmingham and the North West either being offered or being proposed at the time. Plus some other stuff like deliberately being a pain.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can anybody explain why Euston Sq was built with the entrance and exit at the Western end of the station and not the Eastern end?

It wasn't built to serve Euston station, remember that the station was set a long way back from where it is now, with the entrance arch half way down what is now the ramp to P8-11 (there's a picture of a column on the wall on the ramp if you want to work out exactly where). It was to serve the area around where the entrance currently is.

What is more remarkable is that something like 60 years after the current Euston was built there hasn't been one added at the other end of the platforms (which run along Euston Road). This would have been much cheaper if they'd done it in the 60s as it could have been as simple as what is there at the other end now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 23:49 ==

Shenanigans. The London and North Western Railway didn't want the Metropolitan Railway anywhere near it. The station was originally called Gower Street just to make sure. The Met was also making overtures to the Great Western Railway at the time of construction so having even the most tentative possibility of a GWR station on its doorstep would be of concern, particularly with rival services to Birmingham and the North West either being offered or being proposed at the time. Plus some other stuff like deliberately being a pain.

No doubt some of that too. But it just wasn't intended for it to serve Euston station which was a good 100 metres or so further back from where it is now.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 23:51 ==

I hate Euston. Why as a suburban passenger do I have to up the escalator, go out of the station then back inside again to join the masses on the concourse to see that the next Watford Junc trains is from 8, 10 or 11. There used to be working displays at the underground exit gates so that you could go straight to the suburban platforms if that was where the next suburban train was departing from. Why do they have to mix all the LNW passengers up with Avanti passengers.

Just use Realtime Trains then you can use the suburban "tunnel" if appropriate.

I don't entirely know why they removed the displays there. It might have been to stop people hanging around there if platforms weren't shown? It used to be a sheet of paper with fixed platforms on in the days of a simpler operation, though to be honest it's still pretty consistent at most times of day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 23:53 ==

It'd be an incredibly awkward, costly job to do correctly because of the entrances at the track ends on 1 and 12-14. It would still be relatively easy to just do the buffer ends correctly of course, but loads of people currently walk straight around the other way.

Certainly more complex to plug all the gaps in it, but that's true in plenty of places. However you could certainly get rid of all the Carlisle security with the simple addition of about 5 more gates, which must surely be a money saver.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Monday at 23:54 ==

It's very common for there to be a massive queue for Avanti departures blocking the rest of the concourse.

As predicted by anyone who knows the place, the transverse boards made that even worse, though the stairs to the mezzanine don't help and should be relocated. At least with the board back where it belongs people tend to congregate in the middle, leaving the two sides relatively empty.

 

[AlastairFraser]

£50m could probably pay for the rail replacement bus services to Wembley for a year, while they flog off the rights to everything above the entire station, demolish the current carbuncle and then then build a nicer new station with a 20 storey office block on top

 

[Harpo]

As predicted by anyone who knows the place, the transverse boards made that even worse, though the stairs to the mezzanine don't help and should be relocated. At least with the board back where it belongs people tend to congregate in the middle, leaving the two sides relatively empty.

In recent service disruptions Euston has deployed staff to shout at customers and herd them into the middle to create an exit channel.

I hate Euston. Why as a suburban passenger do I have to up the escalator, go out of the station then back inside

Yes its foul. I detest having to walk through that cluster of desperate addicts and their fug.

Can anybody explain why Euston Sq was built with the entrance and exit at the Western end of the station and not the Eastern end?

Or why it didn’t get corrected subsequently using the area taken by the bus station.

 

[Russel]

Make Euston an easier station to get to & from by reinstating the pedestrian tunnel that was apparently one third built to connect Euston Square & Euston Underground stations.
They cancelled the one benefit for all Londoners from the HS2 project when it’s expenditure hugely ballooned & scared the Government.
It would have provided an easterly exit from the circle line, spreading the load on the trains, & allowed fast non ticket gate acccess between the northern & circle line stations.

This is the first I've hear about work on the connecting tunnel actually being started, when did this happen?

 

[Egg Centric]

I hate Euston. Why as a suburban passenger do I have to up the escalator, go out of the station then back inside again to join the masses on the concourse to see that the next Watford Junc trains is from 8, 10 or 11. There used to be working displays at the underground exit gates so that you could go straight to the suburban platforms if that was where the next suburban train was departing from. Why do they have to mix all the LNW passengers up with Avanti passengers.

They usually are from 8,10, or 11 or at least there'll usually be one there very soon (and of course you're close to guaranteed one on platform 9!) so I would personally just always take it tbh.

 

[Starmill]

This is the first I've hear about work on the connecting tunnel actually being started, when did this happen?

It was a base HS2 requirement. Scrapped by Sunak's decision to abandon most of HS2.

They usually are from 8,10, or 11 or at least there'll usually be one there very soon (and of course you're close to guaranteed one on platform 9!) so I would personally just always take it tbh.

Yes, or, if particularly bothered, use the LU wifi to check. But personally I would do the same as you.

 

[Tester]

They usually are from 8,10, or 11 or at least there'll usually be one there very soon (and of course you're close to guaranteed one on platform 9!) so I would personally just always take it tbh.,

If you happen to arrive at 8-11 and find that it's not where you need to be, it isn't that much of a detour to arrive at the concourse that way - and if the weather is inclement you are spared the out-and-in stupidity.

 

[gallafent]

It would also reduce fare dodging on WMT trains - again this must be the only London terminus where open boarding is routinely available to commuter services (aside from 8-11 and the odd revenue block).

Yes, I was astonished when I used the line for the first time in years, I could have done my entire journey end to end without a ticket. No gates at either end, and the second member of onboard staff just sat in the middle cab for the whole journey instead of doing revenue protection (and slowing down the dwell time / increasing the risk of human error at intermediate stops of course, but that's a different topic). On the basis that there won't be any kind of meaningful revenue protection on the trains, then, I'm also in favour of (a) gateline(s) which covers all the platforms, sadly.

 

[oic]

An additional lift to the underground station would be good. I am not surprised they are ignored by those with suitcases so often. They are agonisingly slow and oversubscribed.
And replace the escalators with whatever TfL spec as the network rail ones appear fail a lot.

Access to Eversholt street is also quite poor, really. The step free route is very narrow through to the bus station, and the stairs could be twice as wide.

Is there no better use of the disused taxi rank? Speaking of separating flows of passengers leaving platforms and wanting to join. I am not familiar enough with the layout but it’s so weird to trudge up a big ramp from the platforms and then have to go down stairs etc to reach a lot of street level.