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Future Class 73 replacement

brad465

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Then there are the 73s with the Caledonian Sleeper operation. I think for those being replaced with the Class 99 or an similar such loco would be better as third rail is clearly unnecessary on these operations, something that has previously been discussed elsewhere.
Well according to this thread it looks like the 73 replacement for the sleeper is in the pipeline:

 
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brad465

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I’d be very sorry to see the end of the 92s.

Having been refurbished specifically for this purpose, I think it would be a crying shame to see them replaced by 99s.

Fingers crossed this doesn’t happen.
But being bi-modes presumably the good thing about 99s is they can stay on the front part of the train for the whole journey, with additional locos coming in for the other portions as now. As more of Scotland is electrified they can also use wires for more of the journey going forward.
 

Tilting007

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Mk5s are cleared for 110mph so would make sense to have the locos able to the same.
The 92s being limited to 87mph causes issues when they are out of path.
100mph would be good, 110mph better - even if timings remain the same.
 

D6130

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Mk5s are cleared for 110mph so would make sense to have the locos able to the same.
The 92s being limited to 87mph causes issues when they are out of path.
100mph would be good, 110mph better - even if timings remain the same.
Mark 5s may be cleared for 110 mph....but, having ridden over the bogie in one of them from Euston to Edinburgh at 87 mph maximum, I don't think I would want to do it at any higher speed than that! :|
 

xotGD

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We might have had 31/4, 37/4 and 47/4, but we also had 45/1 and 27/2 as ETH sub-classes.

99101 onwards would make more sense.
 

Russel

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I’d be very sorry to see the end of the 92s.

Having been refurbished specifically for this purpose, I think it would be a crying shame to see them replaced by 99s.

Fingers crossed this doesn’t happen.

If they are investing and future-proofing the service, then I don't see a reason not to support this.
 

Rail Quest

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RETB fitment is easy enough. It's the braking capability that will need some work for that line, bringing a sleeper smoothly down from County March into Fort William is no mean feat, even at 40mph max.
I can't imagine the flakes having worse brakes than a 66, especially given the former has rheostatic braking, something the sheds do not.
 

Bill57p9

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As long as I can remember the sleepers have always been timed/pathed for a maximum of 80mph on the WCML. In the MK3 days the sleeper could run at up to 100mph if delayed. Obviously today the limiting factor would be the class 92 at 87mph.

North of Edinburgh the current class 66s limit the maximum speed to 75mph.

I take it the proposal is to replace the locos both north and south of the central belt? I.e. 92s, 66s and 73/9s?
 

D1537

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We might have had 31/4, 37/4 and 47/4, but we also had 45/1 and 27/2 as ETH sub-classes.

99101 onwards would make more sense.
Yes, the only reason the 31/37/47 ETH versions were /4 was a coincidence in that it was the next sub-class available for each of those classes (standard 31s numbered up to 31327, 37s numbered up to 37308, 47s numbered up to 47381).
 

train_lover

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GB have already ordered 10 ETH fitted 99s. This was the plan from day 1 as they are going on the Britannic and Scotsman
 

cj_1985

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I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves...

What was published in RI was a 'rumour' not a confirmation. Big difference.
 

norbitonflyer

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We might have had 31/4, 37/4 and 47/4, but we also had 45/1 and 27/2 as ETH sub-classes.

99101 onwards would make more sense.
The only reason ETH classes 31, 37 and 47 were all /4 was because the ranges up to /3xx were aleady used by non-ETH examples (nineteen class 31/0s and 227 31/1s, 308 37/9s, 298 47/0s and 81 47/3s)

The 99xxx range was previously used for privately owned coaching stock, when most carraiges belonged to British Rail. "Longworth" (Marl 1 and 2 coaching stock) has numbers ranging from 99000 (once and future TSO 4946) to 99995 (BSK 35457). About 500 altogether, the gaps presumably being vehicles other than Mark 1s and Mark 2s.
My 2024 "Combined Volume" lists 79 still in use, but only eleven of those have not been renumbered out of that range - 99337, 99545, 99886, 99960-99965. 99967-9, 99993

Since even the 990xx range has been used before, there seems to be no reason not to use /1, /2 or any other range for a class 99 subclass, unless there are realistic plans to have more than 99 class 99/0s
 

Bill57p9

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Could they not run via the Suburban, either on arrival or departure?
No reason why not, especially with the bi-mode capability. I have personally experienced that albeit in the 1990s (2x class 37 on load 15).

What is the flake route availability?
 

Carnforth_24

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I believe that some of the 99s will be fitted with ETS.
That is for the Royal Scotsman and the Pullman (from Victoria). I am not sure about the Belmond Britanic Explorer as that has generator coaches.
Use to cover the sleeper contract would just increase the cost effectiveness of ordering a ETS fitted version of the 99.

How much of a speed increase is required ?.
The sleeper does not go that fast. After all we do not want the passengers falling out of their beds AND we don't want them arriving too early for a decent nights sleep !.

The maximum speed of a 92 is 87 mph (140km/h).
The maximum speed of a 99 is 75 mph (120km/h) but can be raised to 100 mph.
Above according to AI and Wikipedia.
As we know, the Royal Scotsman and Britannic Explorer do not need an ETS loco to haul them as they are both provided with a genny van. Wouldn’t the more sensible option be to provide the British Pullman with a genny van so any 99 (or any loco for that matter) could haul all of these Belmond trains?
 

Harlequinuk

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Sleeper needs at least 9 each night (6x 92s, 3x 73s + 2 more working diesels) , so GBRf will need to order more
 

hwl

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Well according to this thread it looks like the 73 replacement for the sleeper is in the pipeline:

More 73s with modern traction electrical equipment for 3rd rail land then!

The biggest issue may well be Bob's retirement.
 

InvHst

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Also this is not confirmed btw..... no announcement regarding the tender contract being awarded that site has been called out as wibble on this subject. So this is all speculation.
 

norbitonflyer

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What is the flake route availability?
RA7 - same as a 66 or 92. 73s are RA6
Could they not run via the Suburban, either on arrival or departure?
They could, (or the changeover could take place somewhere else, like Mossend Yard, as in days of yore). But given the amount of shunting that would still be necessary at Waverley, why bother?
 

Peter Sarf

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RA7 - same as a 66 or 92. 73s are RA6

They could, (or the changeover could take place somewhere else, like Mossend Yard, as in days of yore). But given the amount of shunting that would still be necessary at Waverley, why bother?
The main reduction in shunting and loco attachments will be for the sleepr going beyond Edinburgh. So the loco from London not having to come off at Waverley if it is a 99 instead of a 92. Makes sense that portion would then go round the loop South of Waverley. The other loco moves would be as now adding a day coach for one portion and taking both portions onwards. Indeed they arguably do not need to switch to 99s unless the knitting goes far enough to make it worthwhile and/or identical locos for all portions makes life easier !.

This is if I remember correctly.
 

norbitonflyer

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The main reduction in shunting and loco attachments will be for the sleepr going beyond Edinburgh. So the loco from London not having to come off at Waverley if it is a 99 instead of a 92. Makes sense that portion would then go round the loop South of Waverley.

This is if I remember correctly.
It would probably have to be that way round. I'm not sure a 99 on diesel has enough power to haul 16 carriages and provide ETS
 

Peter Sarf

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It would probably have to be that way round. I'm not sure a 99 on diesel has enough power to haul 16 carriages and provide ETS
Good point - half of all 16 coaches would be easier for the 99. Although it then it is not far I wonder what gradients are involved ?..
 

DelW

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It would probably have to be that way round. I'm not sure a 99 on diesel has enough power to haul 16 carriages and provide ETS
Probably not at WCML speeds, but it might be able to cope at low speeds around the Suburban, it's only a short distance and not particularly time-critical, especially if it saves time by reducing the number of shunt moves. However it's all getting a bit speculative since the ETS 99s don't exist yet.
 

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