SBB plans to buy High-Speed trains

[Austriantrain]

SBB have announced that they will buy 21 High-Speed trains with an option for 20 more.

Link in German:

https://www.bahnonline.ch/91473/sbb-kauft-neue-hochgeschwindigkeitszuege/

A previous plan to lease them has been discarded. From what I gather from previous reporting, these sets will be „real“ HS, i.e. 320 kph, presumably primarily for traffic to France, where SNCF, ever short on sets, restricts CH-F travel. I read some reporting that they might be used to London as well, but I suspect that is still conjecture at this stage.

I suppose they could be useful in Italy as well, but really only between Milano and Bologna, if they decide to use the HSL and run nonstop.

 

[Sorcerer]

I'd like to see if Stadler can offer a new model of train capable of those speeds. The SMILE/Giruno was their first attempt at the high-speed market and it actually turned out quite successful even though it's only maxed out at 250km/h. Given that train was partly built on the previous FLIRT platform, I don't see why they couldn't build on the SMILE platform and give us a true 300/320km/h low-floor unit as well.

 

[Austriantrain]

I'd like to see if Stadler can offer a new model of train capable of those speeds. The SMILE/Giruno was their first attempt at the high-speed market and it actually turned out quite successful even though it's only maxed out at 250km/h. Given that train was partly built on the previous FLIRT platform, I don't see why they couldn't build on the SMILE platform and give us a true 300/320km/h low-floor unit as well.

I am sure they could, but I am not sure that they would take the risk to do what would be a very expensive development for an already quite saturated market. The Giruno itself did not find any buyers apart from SBB, but in that case, nothing really similar was available at the time. Here, there is.

This might be a case where SBB might well prefer to go for a product that is already approved for French LGV.

 

[Sorcerer]

The Giruno itself did not find any buyers apart from SBB, but in that case, nothing really similar was available at the time. Here, there is.

I suppose that's true if SBB wanted a low-floor train for the Gotthard route. Westbahn in Austria have leased three units but perhaps that doesn't count since they were still technically bought by SBB. Though I believe some Asian railways have similar designs even if it's not an off-the-shelf product, but I could be wrong.

This might be a case where SBB might well prefer to go for a product that is already approved for French LGV.

This is interesting because TGVs run on both French and Swiss railways and are approved for French LGVs, but I wonder if the connection to Italy might have SBB opt for a Zefiro/Frecciarossa-derived model that can run in both France and Italy.

 

[Roast Veg]

I'd put a small bet on this being a Coradia Stream - I.E. an Alstom Italy or Poland product. The TGV-M already has a full order book with French operators.

 

[43096]

I suppose that's true if SBB wanted a low-floor train for the Gotthard route. Westbahn in Austria have leased three units but perhaps that doesn't count since they were still technically bought by SBB.

They were not "technically bought by SBB". SBB have ordered and had delivered 41 sets - the Westbahn sets are additional to this.

 

[Farigiraf]

I'd put a small bet on this being a Coradia Stream - I.E. an Alstom Italy or Poland product. The TGV-M already has a full order book with French operators.

I'm fairly sure Coradia Stream trains are max 200km/h at the moment? A Velaro or Avelia Stream seems more likely, especially if they want the comfort level expected of a Swiss train.

 

[Roast Veg]

A Velaro or Avelia Stream seems more likely, especially if they want the comfort level expected of a Swiss train.

Actually I meant Avelia Stream, not Coradia. The brand names are nonsensical.

 

[NCT]

I'd like to see if Stadler can offer a new model of train capable of those speeds. The SMILE/Giruno was their first attempt at the high-speed market and it actually turned out quite successful even though it's only maxed out at 250km/h. Given that train was partly built on the previous FLIRT platform, I don't see why they couldn't build on the SMILE platform and give us a true 300/320km/h low-floor unit as well.

250km/h and 360km/h are fundamentally different train types and you can't just Facelift one into the other. It would require Stadler to develop a whole new product line for what's a very small order in a market area they don't have experience in. Not saying it's impossible but I just don't see it.

The established European true high-speed trains are the ETR 400, Velaro, TGV and AGV (using old names) and I can see SBB going for a standard / low-risk procurement. SBB's recent award of Zurich S-bahn tender to Siemens suggests they are not interested in protecting Stadler. Europe's recent experience in specifying low-floor high-speed trains has not been a happy one - DB had to pull their ICE 5 tender. As far as I know, other than the TGV-M (in a fashion) nobody has tried a low-floor high-speed train for the 550mm platform height. Asian high-speed rail networks are exclusively high-platform, so product lines there have no advantage, and that's even before considering the economics and logistics of sourcing parts for a 'foreign' micro-fleet.

 

[RailWonderer]

250km/h and 360km/h are fundamentally different train types and you can't just Facelift one into the other. It would require Stadler to develop a whole new product line for what's a very small order in a market area they don't have experience in. Not saying it's impossible but I just don't see it.

The established European true high-speed trains are the ETR 400, Velaro, TGV and AGV (using old names) and I can see SBB going for a standard / low-risk procurement. SBB's recent award of Zurich S-bahn tender to Siemens suggests they are not interested in protecting Stadler. Europe's recent experience in specifying low-floor high-speed trains has not been a happy one - DB had to pull their ICE 5 tender. As far as I know, other than the TGV-M (in a fashion) nobody has tried a low-floor high-speed train for the 550mm platform height. Asian high-speed rail networks are exclusively high-platform, so product lines there have no advantage, and that's even before considering the economics and logistics of sourcing parts for a 'foreign' micro-fleet.

Stadler doesn't need as much Swiss business as it used to because it's fairly popular around Europe. Plus they're so successful in the regional segment I'm not sure they'd want to enter what is a very small market - there isn't enough 300km+ track around Europe for it.

 

[NCT]

Stadler doesn't need as much Swiss business as it used to because it's fairly popular around Europe. Plus they're so successful in the regional segment I'm not sure they'd want to enter what is a very small market - there isn't enough 300km+ track around Europe for it.

Exactly. Their FLIRTs and KISSes are so successful all around Europe I don't see them putting themselves through a distraction.

 

[Sorcerer]

Okay so Stadler probably won't take much interest in building at least a 300km/h train given they already found much of their niche in the regional and short classical intercity market. Based on this as well as Alstom already being brimmed with TGV M orders, I think SBB will either opt for a Zefiro or Velaro model instead. Neither operates in Switzerland as I understand it, but they are both cleared for French operations. Probably won't be too had to make a model that works in France and Germany either; interoperability is quite big in the European rolling stock market these days.

 

[Austriantrain]

The Swiss do have an issue though by having very tough accessibility laws (one reason for the Giruno and its layout). I do believe they have an exception though when it is technically not feasible, such as on tilting trains. Here might be a second case.

 

[Sorcerer]

The Swiss do have an issue though by having very tough accessibility laws (one reason for the Giruno and its layout). I do believe they have an exception though when it is technically not feasible, such as on tilting trains. Here might be a second case.

As I understand it the TGV sets offer close to low-floor/level boarding on the Swiss network, but as stated the TGV M orders are quite numerous right now with SNCF and Eurostar. I think for the sake of getting a cheaper and off-the-shelf product any high-speed order would probably become an exceptional case, and perhaps a less cumbersome one than titling trains. The ICN wasn't so bad but I remember the Astoro having quite a considerable gap between train and platform.

 

[Amalie]

Okay so Stadler probably won't take much interest in building at least a 300km/h train given they already found much of their niche in the regional and short classical intercity market. Based on this as well as Alstom already being brimmed with TGV M orders, I think SBB will either opt for a Zefiro or Velaro model instead. Neither operates in Switzerland as I understand it, but they are both cleared for French operations. Probably won't be too had to make a model that works in France and Germany either; interoperability is quite big in the European rolling stock market these days.

Given that Velaros are basically ICEs, I doubt that there is really anything in the way of German certification.

 

[Sorcerer]

Given that Velaros are basically ICEs, I doubt that there is really anything in the way of German certification.

Allow me to correct myself slightly. I can't imagine it'll be too hard to find high-speed rolling stock compatible in both France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland.

 

[Austriantrain]

Allow me to correct myself slightly. I can't imagine it'll be too hard to find high-speed rolling stock compatible in both France, Germany, Italy and Switzerland.

Easiest would be a Frecciarossa variant, since variations of it will soon be approved in all 4 countries. The TGV M will be approved in Italy and I don’t see approval in Germany and Switzerland as a problem for a 4-voltage variant, they are not difficult countries for certification. As for the rest, I don’t know. Obviously approval will be feasible if you don’t butcher the job like the Talgo Avril, but it is time consuming and expensive in France and Italy, they like to play hard, even now when technically ERA does it all. A velaro would be new to Italy, AFAIK.

 

[Roast Veg]

Obviously approval will be feasible if you don’t butcher the job like the Talgo Avril, but it is time consuming and expensive in France and Italy, they like to play hard, even now when technically ERA does it all.

Talgo coaches with different (better) end cars, like a return to something out of Alstom Kassel, would both be low floor and fairly easy to approve everywhere except for the channel tunnel.

Awful passenger experience though.

 

[bahnause]

SBB remains a state-owned enterprise and is therefore subject to the Federal Act on Public Procurement (BöB). It will therefore launch a tendering process and, as with other procurement contracts, is not free to choose the manufacturer.

 

[Sorcerer]

Easiest would be a Frecciarossa variant, since variations of it will soon be approved in all 4 countries. The TGV M will be approved in Italy and I don’t see approval in Germany and Switzerland as a problem for a 4-voltage variant, they are not difficult countries for certification. As for the rest, I don’t know. Obviously approval will be feasible if you don’t butcher the job like the Talgo Avril, but it is time consuming and expensive in France and Italy, they like to play hard, even now when technically ERA does it all. A velaro would be new to Italy, AFAIK.

A Velaro would definitely be new to Italy which is why I think a Zefiro model would be more likely. TGV-derived sets are quite booked up, but we'd have to judge it when the actual shortlisted tenders are published to get a proper idea.

SBB remains a state-owned enterprise and is therefore subject to the Federal Act on Public Procurement (BöB). It will therefore launch a tendering process and, as with other procurement contracts, is not free to choose the manufacturer.

Long as you don't end up with another FV Dosto situation I don't think SBB will have too much of a problem with that.

 

[AdamWW]

SBB remains a state-owned enterprise and is therefore subject to the Federal Act on Public Procurement (BöB). It will therefore launch a tendering process and, as with other procurement contracts, is not free to choose the manufacturer.

No but in such things there is usually a fair amount of scope to influence the outcome by choosing appropriate specifications.

 

[bahnause]

That’s like walking on thin ice, both legally and economically. In this case, I don’t see any reason at all to even attempt something like that. It will be a new vehicle in the fleet, so there’s no need to take existing vehicles into account. Such customized requirement profiles also lead to higher costs. Of course, the manufacturer also realizes that it can charge a “monopoly premium” here.