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ScotRail Suburban Fleet (EMU and BEMU) Market Engagement

hwl

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5 Feb 2012
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8,298
Why? I had presumed that the AT300/IET was a Japanese design from HITACHI HQ, rather than the former AnsaldoBreda - the first ones were built in Japan, before any were built in Italy. The Frecciarossa 1000 is an ex-AnsaldoBreda, pre-Hitach Rail Italy, design, yet I haven’t heard of problems with those, although other AnsaldoBreda products, such as the Fyra, have been poor.
You have heard about EMR 810 problems? Which is what happens when you let ex-AB reengineer an AT300...
Frecciarossa 1000 was mostly Bombardier design with careful supervision of Ansaldo Breda for assembly - the Italian government knew it couldn't trust AB and FS had been insisting AB buy in lots on Bombardier equipment for their regional train orders (this wasn't known to northern European buyers).
Bombardier won the HS2 procurement but Alstom bought them and they had to divest one of their 3 HS product families so they sold some of the Zefiro IP to Hitachi but Hitachi still had to include Alstom/Bombardier as major partner.
 
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RailUK Forums

AHBD

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Yeah, we Scots pay nothing. If ....
???

Thats not what I meant:

Each country in a fiscal union pays in, a fiscal union spreads it back out, rather than each part of the UK being limited by the tax it can raise itself.

If one is in a fiscal union, as Scotland is in the UK, but one simply goes ' if the trains aren't made in Scotland so who cares if anywhere else in the UK gets tax etc profits from making them in a local factory'* then theres less money to go round the fiscal union as whole which includes Scotland...

* the point I was responding to.
 

Silv3r

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11 Sep 2024
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Edinburgh
???

Thats not what I meant:

Each country in a fiscal union pays in, a fiscal union spreads it back out, rather than each part of the UK being limited by the tax it can raise itself.

If one is in a fiscal union, as Scotland is in the UK, but one simply goes ' if the trains aren't made in Scotland so who cares if anywhere else in the UK gets tax etc profits from making them in a local factory'* then theres less money to go round the fiscal union as whole which includes Scotland...

* the point I was responding to.
Whilst your point does make sense, Scottish Government only ask for public sector bodies to look into how a bid will impact the Scottish Economy, so the trains being built in the UK won't make a difference in the scoring.

Most bidders will probably respond with opening/upgrading a maintenance depot in Scotland as their local benefit.
 

Grinner

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21 Feb 2013
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Paisley
ASLEF saying drivers won't drive the trains if CAF is selected as the winning bid due to CAF's involvement in projects in the occupied Palestinian territories:


TRAIN drivers have warned they will boycott vehicles manufactured by a company linked to illegal Israeli settlements.
Transport Secretary Stephen Flynn has been urged to block Spanish firm Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles (CAF) from winning a contract to build new trains for ScotRail’s suburban fleet.
The company, which is involved in the expansion of the Jerusalem Light Rail system linking illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank, was announced as one of five shortlisted firms to build the new fleet last month.
 
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ASLEF saying drivers won't drive the trains if CAF is selected as the winning bid due to CAF's involvement in projects in the occupied Palestinian territories:

Somehow feel that railways are now getting a bit too political! How are we meant to get stuff done in this country?

Note - I do appreciate that the reasons that the drivers are coming from and do understand them.
 

InvernessTMD

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7 Aug 2022
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Central Scotland
The world is still importing a vast quantity of goods from Russia during their "Special Military Operation". Why should buying trains from CAF be any different? I'd elaborate on the similarities, but I don't know how much politics are tolerated in non-politic boards here...
 

Bob85

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17 Jul 2024
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England
Somehow feel that railways are now getting a bit too political! How are we meant to get stuff done in this country?

Note - I do appreciate that the reasons that the drivers are coming from and do understand them.
Reviving this discussion a little bit, I agree. Drivers are hired to drive the trains, we can't just boycott everything with links to any country or any person who does bad things, otherwise we'd be boycotting everything.
 

waverley47

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17 Apr 2015
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868
Weren't both the IET (Newton Aycliffe) and 2024 Stock (Goole) orders also political in nature?

As were TfW's CAF units, as were the 745s which were ordered from Stadler ostensibly so that they would have enough units to operate a maintenance facility in Anglia, as were various generations of BREL projects, ect....
 

Ben Conlin

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19 Aug 2018
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74
I was watching the latest episode of green signals where they dive into the new Alstom Adessia design for TPE more. They sound very impressive, seems to be step free completely inside the unit, either fully flat or ramps. Modular design to allow extra cars to be added with each car having it's own set of batteries that are dense enough to offer around 90 miles of range. Sounds a pretty promising option, would be interesting to see what the other manufacturers could offer design wise to compete. Hopefully in the case of Hitachi etc not just existing designs like a 385 with a low floor trailer or two stuck on the end with batteries.
 

Mrwerdna1

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18 Jul 2018
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The Continent
Somehow feel that railways are now getting a bit too political! How are we meant to get stuff done in this country?

Note - I do appreciate that the reasons that the drivers are coming from and do understand them.
It's not about politics per se, it's about taking a stance on foreign policy and more specifically, a specific international conflict. Personally, I would prefer if unions were political in the classic domestic sense, i.e. endorsing parties, political actors and policies that are pro-railway worker. Unions are and always have been inherently political in that sense, if not necessarily party political.

That said, like you I do understand where the drivers are coming from, in principle, though I feel like we're getting into weedy waters here. I mean, who's checking that the other manufacturers don't source their raw materials, refined metals or computer chip technology from war-torn countries in Africa, Asia and South America?

Not to say that CAF's financial dealings are entirely ethical, far from it, but it seems difficult to draw a clear distinction between them and other European manufacturers in that regard and given that fact, I would prefer trade unions stuck to bread and butter issues instead.

I think part of the problem is that in today's attention economy and post-Thatcher globalised fragmented labour market, traditional trade unions everywhere are desperately trying to shake off their image of dusty middle-aged white men clubs in favour of more diversity and younger members, not least through social media. But I don't think that this is the right way to go about it.

Whatever their financial dealings abroad, CAF is an entirely reputable manufacturer. In my view, the most important parameters to consider from the drivers' point of view are reliability, ease of use, comfort and safety. If CAF can deliver on that front more so than another manufacturer, it seems bonkers to boycott them for a matter related entirely to foreign policy and a conflict two and half thousand miles away.

But that's just me...
 
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Trainbike46

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belfast
In my view, the drivers are entirely right to raise concerns about a company that was added to a UN blacklist, at a point where those concerns could be acted upon.

I'm more surprised the UN blacklist status didn't instantly disqualify CAF from the tender.
 

Snow1964

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West Wiltshire
ASLEF saying drivers won't drive the trains if CAF is selected as the winning bid due to CAF's involvement in projects in the occupied Palestinian territories:
They are choosing to be very selective on which firms

eg Egis (which runs M40 services), Motorola who own Airwave (used by emergency network), Heidelberg Materials (Nahal Raba quarry) all on UN blacklist too.

I'm more surprised the UN blacklist status didn't instantly disqualify CAF from the tender.
Possibly because Scotrail have dragged this out so long, when they were added 12.5 months ago to UN list, that it wasn't on the blacklist at the time of submission
 

Highlander1

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Inverness
They are choosing to be very selective on which firms

eg Egis (which runs M40 services), Motorola who own Airwave (used by emergency network), Heidelberg Materials (Nahal Raba quarry) all on UN blacklist too.


Possibly because Scotrail have dragged this out so long, when they were added 12.5 months ago to UN list, that it wasn't on the blacklist at the time of submission
I'm not sure "dragged it out" is particularly fair. They're not due into service until 2031.
 

Class83

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8 Jun 2012
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613
I'm not sure "dragged it out" is particularly fair. They're not due into service until 2031.
Because they're dragging it out, the wiring the trains would use is going up currently. Blockade on line in Fife is about to start. New trains would be useful in a year or 18 months.
 

Highlander1

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5 Sep 2025
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Inverness
Because they're dragging it out, the wiring the trains would use is going up currently. Blockade on line in Fife is about to start. New trains would be useful in a year or 18 months.
Some of the wiring is going up. There's still significant work to be done before the electrification is ready to be used. Dundee is 2029. There's also the lease term on the existing trains to consider.
 

hwl

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5 Feb 2012
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8,298
Because they're dragging it out, the wiring the trains would use is going up currently. Blockade on line in Fife is about to start. New trains would be useful in a year or 18 months.
Some of the wiring is going up. There's still significant work to be done before the electrification is ready to be used. Dundee is 2029. There's also the lease term on the existing trains to consider.
The new EMUs will be rolled out first so the non battery issues can be ironed out on those. Some of the EMU will replace existing DMU services that run completely under the wires currently.
 

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