York and north Yorkshire franchising

[YorkRailFan]

The earliest timetable I have to hand is 2004 when it was every 20 minutes - increased to every 15 minutes in 2008 - reduced back to every 20 minutes in 2013 - temporarily reduced to every 30 minutes during Covid and then made permanent in 2021.

Possibly worth noting that up to 2014, the route was mostly worked by Metroriders and then Solos - but from the end of 2014, it has mostly been worked by full-sized saloons and more recently some double-deckers as well. So the reduction in frequency has been offset by larger buses to maintain capacity. For an interurban route, that isn't necessarily a bad compromise, not sure how much fun a Solo would be on a route like that!

The Sunday timetable is also quite good. Hourly with the last bus leaving Darlington at 21:30. For an inter-urban route in North Yorkshire, that's a real rarity. Just needs some better buses on it which are hopefully coming in the next few years with the investment in new vehicles announced by Arriva earlier this year.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I literally said that if you read my comment:

Yes - I was agreeing with you in relation to your comment to @Jimmi. Apologies if that didn't come across.

Enough for DalesBus to continue to fund the service. If there weren't, it wouldn't run!

Enough for a touristy Sunday service but not an hourly weekday service to Leyburn.

I last used the X26/X27 on a Tuesday evening, roughly 5 people alighted at Darlington station (myself included) to get a train. I'm not denying the 159 is busier, it has a better frequency to show for that. My point is about increasing integration in the area. I have demonstrated a plan to do so with a low cost, low risk start of organising the 155 & 73 to connect in Bedale. You have proposed nothing and seem to be happy with the status quo because of what happened in 1999. Having the 155 & 73 is the easier than anything you have proposed in North Yorkshire, it costs next to nothing, improves integration and allows a possibility for further improvements should they be deemed feasible. You have no response to it because there is nothing to say against it, it's undeniably low-hanging fruit to have the 155 & 73 connect in Bedale.

You did well to get five The other week, we didn't have five passengers leave Darlington let alone at the station

Having the 155 & 73 connect in Bedale costs nothing. It creates better journeys between Leyburn & the County Town and allows for improvements in the future should it be deemed feasible.

And I've agreed with you on that. Change the 155 times to **35 and that works; the only issue is you might have to lose one journey but otherwise, I've said "yeah, crack on"

I'm tired of this, I have provided a plan that costs next to nothing, improves journeys and opens up the possibility for improved services in the future. It doesn't need franchising, just joined-up thinking from the council. You have provided nothing to improve integration in an area that needs it. We can round and round in circles and continue to disagree. I have nothing else to say on the matter.

I've shared the areas in which I think the council should spend their money on.

I've agreed with your suggestion to change the 155 times to connect with the 73.

I just don't see that extending the 73 to Leyburn every hour with 35 seat e200s to replace a two hourly 20 seat Sprinter is a good use of funds. And yes, I'm tired of this too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 13:54 ==

The Sunday timetable is also quite good. Hourly with the last bus leaving Darlington at 21:30. For an inter-urban route in North Yorkshire, that's a real rarity. Just needs some better buses on it which are hopefully coming in the next few years with the investment in new vehicles announced by Arriva earlier this year.

The reason for that is Catterick Garrison. Even on a Sunday, you would get numbers of squaddies coming back from a weekend leave into Darlington station; it's the same reason why Friday afternoon is also quite decent in usage.

After deregulation, it didn't have Sunday morning services - services didn't start until 1230. It was only with Sunday shop opening and the 1999 RBC funding that Sunday morning services appeared; in fact, the RBC funds gave it a 30 min frequency on a Sunday but that was soon dropped as overkill.

It desperately needs better vehicles. The Pulsars are decent but so elderly whilst the Streetlites are just battered. I really do think that it's one where Arriva could and should do better.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yes - I was agreeing with you in relation to your comment to @Jimmi. Apologies if that didn't come across.

Ah sorry, my misunderstanding.

I just don't see that extending the 73 to Leyburn every hour with 35 seat e200s to replace a two hourly 20 seat Sprinter is a good use of funds. And yes, I'm tired of this too.

Fair enough, we agree to disagree.

---

A route that I could see being suggested to run during the week but being unsustainable is the Saturday-only 59. The first 59 out of Harrogate and the last return from Skipton (sometimes also the 15:45 during the winter when the days are shorter) are busy, sometimes nearly packed, but the rest are dead quiet. Another idea that seems good on paper but likely couldn't hold its own weight and isn't a good use of the council's limited funds. Looks good on a map but I can see it being empty if it ran during the week.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Wednesday at 14:07 ==

It desperately needs better vehicles. The Pulsars are decent but so elderly whilst the Streetlites are just battered. I really do think that it's one where Arriva could and should do better

As you know, there are lots of Arriva routes out of Darlington depot that need new vehicles desperately. The X26/X27 is just one (or two) of those.

After deregulation, it didn't have Sunday morning services - services didn't start until 1230. It was only with Sunday shop opening and the 1999 RBC funding that Sunday morning services appeared; in fact, the RBC funds gave it a 30 min frequency on a Sunday but that was soon dropped as overkill.

There is a service now on a Sunday that arrives into Darlington before 09:30 which is impressive, however it starts in Richmond. The first bus from Scotton Kemmel, Colburn and Catterick Garrison doesn't arrive into Darlington until 10:25. Not bad for a Sunday in North Yorkshire.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As you know, there are lots of Arriva routes out of Darlington depot that need new vehicles desperately. The X26/X27 is just one (or two) of those.

Oh I know... I had a Bishop to Darlington run recently with an old Pulsar on its last legs (gears slipping etc) and with a depot full of vehicles from 2009 to 2015 (aside from the e200mmcs), it's pretty grim.

The Kites will allow the worst Pulsars to go but there's a backlog of fleet replacement (and the Kites deployment is already delayed, as I understand it).

There is a service now on a Sunday that arrives into Darlington before 09:30 which is impressive, however it starts in Richmond. The first bus from Scotton Kemmel, Colburn and Catterick Garrison doesn't arrive into Darlington until 10:25. Not bad for a Sunday in North Yorkshire.

It's a decent provision. Before 1999, first bus to Darlington arrived at 1355 but then again, no shops were open and there wasn't much need.

(*self edit - for a period in 1986/7, there were earlier buses on the 25 now 34, and 29, but they were soon axed)

 

[YorkRailFan]

The Kites will allow the worst Pulsars to go but there's a backlog of fleet replacement (and the Kites deployment is already delayed, as I understand it)

From a post in the Arriva North East thread, entry into service of the Kites has been pushed back from end of September to January. They will go some way, but not far enough to replace all of the Pulsars. Whether they actually enter into service in January is another matter that only time will tell.

 

[Kuyoyo]

Oh I know... I had a Bishop to Darlington run recently with an old Pulsar on its last legs (gears slipping etc) and with a depot full of vehicles from 2009 to 2015 (aside from the e200mmcs), it's pretty grim.

The Kites will allow the worst Pulsars to go but there's a backlog of fleet replacement (and the Kites deployment is already delayed, as I understand it).

There is also 10 E200MMCs undergoing delivery for Darlington presently - no route has been mentioned as where these will be used but they should be in use soon-ish.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There is also 10 E200MMCs undergoing delivery for Darlington presently - no route has been mentioned as where these will be used but they should be in use soon-ish.

The Kites are for town services (and should dislodge the mini e200mmcs to Yorkshire??) and these new e200mmc ones are longer ones for inter-urban routes. That said, there's a lot of those too.

 

[Kuyoyo]

The Kites are for town services (and should dislodge the mini e200mmcs to Yorkshire??) and these new e200mmc ones are longer ones for inter-urban routes. That said, there's a lot of those too.

At least 6 of the short E200s are now staying as there's not enough Kites for the minibus requirements at Darlington now - coupled to the 18 not being able to use them due to the Railway Bridge in Albert Hill (the only one of the revised TVCA-funded services that will use the Kites once they enter service is the 19 - and the evening 18As which run off a 9/10/13 cycle).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

At least 6 of the short E200s are now staying as there's not enough Kites for the minibus requirements at Darlington now - coupled to the 18 not being able to use them due to the Railway Bridge in Albert Hill (the only one of the revised TVCA-funded services that will use the Kites once they enter service is the 19 - and the evening 18As which run off a 9/10/13 cycle).

Thanks - I'd heard that bridge was a problem and they were looking at either a reroute or retaining some e200mmc - evidently the latter was the solution.

 

[Snex]

Correct - outside of York, Harrogate and Scarborough (to an extent), it’s very thin gravy and virtually everything in what was Richmondshire and Hambleton is tendered.

Thanks for confirming, thought that was the case. Seems like it's a bit of a moot point and they could do most of it anyway.

In order for North Yorkshire to have a successful bus network, all it's towns need proper facilities like West Yorkshire's do. It's just full of these small mickey mouse so called towns and villages with nothing in them, no proper industrial estates, no big schools, no shopping centres, in some cases not even a proper high street, here's looking at you Tadcaster! I think the powers that be in North Yorkshire should fix that first before trying to sort the skeleton bus network that's skeleton for good reason.

Must say I couldn't disagree any more; North Yorkshire has some of the best High Streets in the North of England imo. Ripon, Thirsk, Northallerton, Whitby, Richmond, Stokesley, Harrogate, Skipton, Helmsley, Selby and Knaresborough are all decent little places and have everything you need to do a shop.

I can't comment too much on the South but they're 100% better than the absolute dives in the North East where the High Street is the likes of Teesside Park, Metrocentre, Silverlink, Tinsdale and whatever other retail park is in the area because the town centre is the absolute pits.

imo there's just no demand for public transport in North Yorkshire full stop. The population is too sparse and realistically you need to drive to get around. Is it really an issue down there? There's places for public transport like major cities where you can't have 200,000 cars every day heading into the city and there's places where alternatives should be looked at imo for those who need it (demand transport or whatever) - most rural areas.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Must say I couldn't disagree any more; North Yorkshire has some of the best High Streets in the North of England imo. Ripon, Thirsk, Northallerton, Whitby, Richmond, Stokesley, Harrogate, Skipton, Helmsley, Selby and Knaresborough are all decent little places and have everything you need to do a shop.

I can't comment too much on the South but they're 100% better than the absolute dives in the North East where the High Street is the likes of Teesside Park, Metrocentre, Silverlink, Tinsdale and whatever other retail park is in the area because the town centre is the absolute pits.

imo there's just no demand for public transport in North Yorkshire full stop. The population is too sparse and realistically you need to drive to get around. Is it really an issue down there? There's places for public transport like major cities where you can't have 200,000 cars every day heading into the city and there's places where alternatives should be looked at imo for those who need it (demand transport or whatever) - most rural areas.

I think @Ballyheigue is being somewhat harsh. Certainly places like Skipton and Harrogate are busy and vibrant, and there are some very attractive places like Richmond and Ripon. There are some very pleasant places.

However, what you can't avoid (and you are both saying this) is that there are huge tracts of North Yorkshire with very few people living in them. Out of 296 local authority areas in England, North Yorkshire comes in at 292 in terms of population density. However, it's worse than that as the lowest is West Devon at 51 people per sq km... Richmondshire is at 38! The towns are very small aside from Scarborough and Harrogate (and the former is highly seasonal), and the next largest place is Selby at 20k inhabitants. That is not good bus territory.

Now mentioning Devon (not a unitary), it has five districts between 283 and 296 in the list with West Devon at 296th. It too has some very sparsely populated areas but they have always been more constructive in bus service provision, even in the 1970s. Whereas North Yorkshire has been lukewarm and that's being charitable. Hence one of the reasons that Devon has better bus services.

 

[peterblue]

Money is a finite resource, and I can't see anyone spending 6 figures to have an hourly rural bus instead of a 2 hourly one.

I think there are a few 'quick win' moves that are largely cost neutral. Such as by having better connections or extending / combining routes to other traffic objectives. One that seems logical to me, for example, is to divert Leyburn to Richmond via the Tesco in Catterick Garrison. And/or even Darlington, perhaps, if it could be connected to the X26/X27/34, though I don't see a way to do this from current timetables/operators.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Money is a finite resource, and I can't see anyone spending 6 figures to have an hourly rural bus instead of a 2 hourly one.

I think there are a few 'quick win' moves that are largely cost neutral. Such as by having better connections or extending / combining routes to other traffic objectives. One that seems logical to me, for example, is to divert Leyburn to Richmond via the Tesco in Catterick Garrison. And/or even Darlington, perhaps, if it could be connected to the X26/X27/34, though I don't see a way to do this from current timetables/operators.

Diverting the 159 via the Garrison should be doable with a time penalty of probably 5 mins. Whilst you miss out Downholme, it still gets the 30 and that's enough for the number of passengers. Running it via the Garrison would be more useful and attractive - more bang for not much buck. An oddity in the 159 timetable is that whilst some do Leyburn to Richmond in 30 mins (as they have done for years - basically the short workings), the ones that run to/from Middleham and Ripon have extra time built in between Leyburn and Bellerby so you could do it without too much hassle.

And as I said, you could align the 159 with the X26/27 but given that the latter can often be c.5 to 10 mins late, that's the least of your worries!

There's a few things NYC really could do with a bit of imagination but they have a poor track record. Don't spend any of their own money, but if there's central funds, they get it and blow it... much of the Rural Bus Challenge funding was squandered, and let's not talk of YorBus!

 

[stevieinselby]

Don't spend any of their own money, but if there's central funds, they get it and blow it... much of the Rural Bus Challenge funding was squandered, and let's not talk of YorBus!

To be fair to them, I think they were pretty smart with how they did YorBus ... running it alongside the existing services gave them an easy way to compare the performance and usage of the two. OK, there was probably some "stickiness" and people using the old services because that's what they knew and were used to, which might have skewed the figures a bit, but because they have kept the scheduled services going it was very easy to remove the DRT once it was clear that it was a lost cause, unlike in other areas where they were totally invested in trying to make DRT work because they'd scrapped their scheduled services.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

To be fair to them, I think they were pretty smart with how they did YorBus ... running it alongside the existing services gave them an easy way to compare the performance and usage of the two. OK, there was probably some "stickiness" and people using the old services because that's what they knew and were used to, which might have skewed the figures a bit, but because they have kept the scheduled services going it was very easy to remove the DRT once it was clear that it was a lost cause, unlike in other areas where they were totally invested in trying to make DRT work because they'd scrapped their scheduled services.

I was being a bit tongue in cheek and yes, at least they didn't scrap the existing 144 and 155.

Going back to comments on what is now the X26/7, here's the 1987 timetable. It shows how the service didn't wake up on a Sunday til the afternoon so it's one route where things have got a little better (but only a little and you now travel via Colburn).

I'd forgotten the one morning journey which was a placement run for the Sunday 29 - another weird experiment.



And for a bit of fun.... here's the 1987 Swaledale timetable. How many mad things can you spot???



Just goes to show that some things never change in the fevered minds of County Hall...

 

[Snex]

I think @Ballyheigue is being somewhat harsh. Certainly places like Skipton and Harrogate are busy and vibrant, and there are some very attractive places like Richmond and Ripon. There are some very pleasant places.

However, what you can't avoid (and you are both saying this) is that there are huge tracts of North Yorkshire with very few people living in them. Out of 296 local authority areas in England, North Yorkshire comes in at 292 in terms of population density. However, it's worse than that as the lowest is West Devon at 51 people per sq km... Richmondshire is at 38! The towns are very small aside from Scarborough and Harrogate (and the former is highly seasonal), and the next largest place is Selby at 20k inhabitants. That is not good bus territory.

Now mentioning Devon (not a unitary), it has five districts between 283 and 296 in the list with West Devon at 296th. It too has some very sparsely populated areas but they have always been more constructive in bus service provision, even in the 1970s. Whereas North Yorkshire has been lukewarm and that's being charitable. Hence one of the reasons that Devon has better bus services.

Yeah can't argue to be fair.

To be honest, I question whether the transport is really needed. I know on paper it's nice to have a bus to everywhere but is anyone in North Yorkshire actually asking for a bus service or are we just creating buses for the sake of creating buses because we've decided they must exist?

If there's only 20 people across 200 villages needing some transport who are unable to drive, you'd be better off looking at some form of taxi service for them and actually get them to where they want to be imo and no doubt save a massive chunk of money aswell. It's better for everyone.

It's not like there's arguments for saving congestion and the likes because there's no congestion to reduce so it's just a moot point.

Personally I think the money that would be wasted here would be better spent on reducing people driving in Darlington or the likes so when the people from the likes of Richmondshire go for their supermarket shop then they get a free run to drive and park easily and aren't fighting with someone from West Park in Darlington which has an absolutely shocking service to pick somewhere out.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yeah can't argue to be fair.

To be honest, I question whether the transport is really needed. I know on paper it's nice to have a bus to everywhere but is anyone in North Yorkshire actually asking for a bus service or are we just creating buses for the sake of creating buses because we've decided they must exist?

If there's only 20 people across 200 villages needing some transport who are unable to drive, you'd be better off looking at some form of taxi service for them and actually get them to where they want to be imo and no doubt save a massive chunk of money aswell. It's better for everyone.

It's not like there's arguments for saving congestion and the likes because there's no congestion to reduce so it's just a moot point really and realistically your never going to be able to provide a service which can cover their needs anyway.

Without going over old ground, it's why I questioned if the 155 provision really is inadequate, and it is something you can extend to many routes. The service provision isn't great but it probably serves 80-90% of the potential demand and anything else probably isn't worth the money.

I do think there is some scope for improvement in certain areas, as I've suggested and there's probably some more in areas that are less familiar to me. However, in places like the Dales or bits of the Moors, there simply isn't the base population to do much more than the current provision.

 

[Snex]

Without going over old ground, it's why I questioned if the 155 provision really is inadequate, and it is something you can extend to many routes. The service provision isn't great but it probably serves 80-90% of the potential demand and anything else probably isn't worth the money.

I do think there is some scope for improvement in certain areas, as I've suggested and there's probably some more in areas that are less familiar to me. However, in places like the Dales or bits of the Moors, there simply isn't the base population to do much more than the current provision.

Yeah totally agreed, not going to lie and I'm not sure how feasible it would be but imo the best thing you could do because of how sparse it is to have ultra long services.

Have the likes of
York - Easingwold - Thirsk - Northallerton - Darlington
York - Easingwold - Helmsley - Pickering - Scarborough
Ripon - Thirsk - Northallerton - Hutton Redby - Stokesley - Great Ayton - Middlesborough
Leyburn - Bedale - Leeming - Northallerton

There's very very little demand from end to end but there might be the odd demand in the bits between and the services already all exist anyway but they're in small chunks instead terminating at random places like Stokesley, Kirkbymoorside and Bedale which are never going to places where there's a huge demand for.

Obviously you'd have to have 1 driver do a run, have his 30 minute break then return on the same bus similar to the likes of the X18 in Northumberland which would be a dreadful bus service if it was Berwick - Seahouses, Bamburgh - Alnwick, Alnwick - Newcastle, Berwick - Alnwick which basically these services are doing and it's as sparse up there.

The X14, X15, X18 and X20 are fantastic set of routes to deal with a sparse area and do well really.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yeah totally agreed, not going to lie and I'm not sure how feasible it would be but imo the best thing you could do because of how sparse it is to have ultra long services.

Have the likes of
York - Easingwold - Thirsk - Northallerton - Darlington
York - Easingwold - Helmsley - Pickering - Scarborough
Ripon - Thirsk - Northallerton - Hutton Redby - Stokesley - Great Ayton - Middlesborough
Leyburn - Bedale - Leeming - Northallerton

There's very very little demand from end to end but there might be the odd demand in the bits between and the services already all exist anyway but they're in small chunks instead terminating at random places like Stokesley, Kirkbymoorside and Bedale which are never going to places where there's a huge demand for.

Obviously you'd have to have 1 driver do a run, have his 30 minute break then return on the same bus similar to the likes of the X18 in Northumberland which would be a dreadful bus service if it was Berwick - Seahouses, Bamburgh - Alnwick, Alnwick - Newcastle, Berwick - Alnwick which basically these services are doing and it's as sparse up there.

The X14, X15, X18 and X20 are fantastic set of routes to deal with a sparse area and do well really.

Those routes you mention in Northumberland are longstanding routes and they have demanded decker operation for the last 20 years and they are very tourist heavy as well as having a strong commuting base. The most obvious parallel in North Yorkshire is the X93.

One of the issues with what you propose is, as I said with the 155, is that you end up with buses that are far larger (and more expensive) than you need on the lighter trafficked sections - you need a big bus between Northallerton and Bedale but a Sprinter to Leyburn. Deckers from Scarborough to Helmsley but singles from Helmsley to York. By all means, make the connections better but I'm not convinced that there's many overlapping flows.

FWIW, the 70 and 72 used to run as a through route.

I really think the scope is in the bigger areas like Harrogate and Scarborough, and perhaps trying to rejuvenate some of those routes like the 28 and the X26/27 and the 80/89 where there's a reasonable base market.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yeah totally agreed, not going to lie and I'm not sure how feasible it would be but imo the best thing you could do because of how sparse it is to have ultra long services.

Have the likes of
York - Easingwold - Thirsk - Northallerton - Darlington
York - Easingwold - Helmsley - Pickering - Scarborough
Ripon - Thirsk - Northallerton - Hutton Redby - Stokesley - Great Ayton - Middlesborough
Leyburn - Bedale - Leeming - Northallerton

There's very very little demand from end to end but there might be the odd demand in the bits between and the services already all exist anyway but they're in small chunks instead terminating at random places like Stokesley, Kirkbymoorside and Bedale which are never going to places where there's a huge demand for.

Obviously you'd have to have 1 driver do a run, have his 30 minute break then return on the same bus similar to the likes of the X18 in Northumberland which would be a dreadful bus service if it was Berwick - Seahouses, Bamburgh - Alnwick, Alnwick - Newcastle, Berwick - Alnwick which basically these services are doing and it's as sparse up there.

The X14, X15, X18 and X20 are fantastic set of routes to deal with a sparse area and do well really.

I'll address each of your route suggestions separately.

York-Easingwold-Thirsk-Northallerton-Darlington

Thirsk, Northallerton & Darlington already have a train service to York and also between Northallerton & Darlington, and Thirsk & Northallerton. Thirsk has a bus to Northallerton, York & Easingwold. Easingwold has 2bph to York (1 on 30/30X & 1 on 40). There might be scope for improvements to improve the A19 corridor between York & Easingwold though. Northallerton also has a bus to Darlington. You'd only be looking at Easingwold - Northallerton & Darlington, and Thirsk-Darlington demand which is probably limited with there being better options to York.

York - Easingwold - Helmsley - Pickering - Scarborough

You could definitely improve York-Easingwold-Helmsley. I think the 16:00 journey from York should also run during the school term (currently doesn't as bus is used on College service) as its usually busy, even beyond Easingwold. The problem arises for the return journey back to York which is usually very quiet. There is also scope for improving the 28 between Pickering & Scarborough, the provision for Helmsley on the 28 is probably sufficient. As for demand, well you're looking at Easingwold-Pickering & Scarborough which is likely limited, as everything else is covered (with scope for improvements), and York is far more accessible. Even for those looking at a day out in Scarborough during the summer from Easingwold, such a route would take too long. It's quicker to go via York.

Ripon - Thirsk - Northallerton - Hutton Redby - Stokesley - Great Ayton - Middlesborough

Thirsk & Northallerton currently have an hourly train to Middlesbrough. As discussed before, there is scope for improvements to Northallerton-Stokesley and probably also Ripon-Thirsk-Northallerton. Definitely also scope for Stokesley-Middlesborough as well. As one long route, too long with little overlap to justify running as a through route. Reliability would suffer as a result.

Leyburn - Bedale - Leeming - Northallerton

Discussed at length. Lets just say, controversial, to not reignite it.

As for the Northumberland services, I believe driver changes happen in Alnwick? There is quite a bit of overlap in those areas. A bus like the X15 from Alnwick to Newcastle is much more attractive to someone in Alnwick than getting the X20 to Alnmouth Station and getting a train to Newcastle, unless you are travelling beyond Newcastle. Likewise for anyone travelling north of Alnwick to Berwick. I agree that the X14, X15, X18 & X20 do a great job connecting Northumberland. They also benefit from fast roads (like the A1) to speed up journey times. This is something not available for a lot of routes in North Yorkshire that you suggested, with some exceptions like the A19 between York & Easingwold.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As for the Northumberland services, I believe driver changes happen in Alnwick? There is quite a bit of overlap in those areas. A bus like the X15 from Alnwick to Newcastle is much more attractive to someone in Alnwick than getting the X20 to Alnmouth Station and getting a train to Newcastle, unless you are travelling beyond Newcastle. Likewise for anyone travelling north of Alnwick to Berwick. I agree that the X14, X15, X18 & X20 do a great job connecting Northumberland. They also benefit from fast roads (like the A1) to speed up journey times. This is something not available for a lot of routes in North Yorkshire that you suggested, with some exceptions like the A19 between York & Easingwold.

As I mentioned above, there are very strong parallels between the X93 and the Great North Road services. For Middlesbrough read Newcastle, for Guisborough read Morpeth, for Alnwick read Whitby... and if you want to get from Alnwick/Whitby to the big commercial centre... the bus is better than the train! Of course, Berwick and Scarborough aren't quite the same!!

For much of their existence, both "corridors" were operated by dual purpose vehicles with only a limited number of decker boards for schools. In fact, the X93 gained new Plaxton Prima DAF coaches in 1999. Without wanting to go into detail, most of what are now X15/X18 had boards that ran via Belford were deckers as were the 518 from Alnwick via Amble to Newcastle. There were single deck boards (also operated by Plaxton Primas) that typically ran to Seahouses. What changed on both those and the X93 was the twirly pass that increased the amount of leisure travel especially in the summer months so deckers became the norm.

It is a long time ago (probably early 2000s) but Stagecoach Darlington did extend their Newcastle Express south of Darlington to run via Northallerton, Thirsk and Easingwold to York but why spend ages on a bus (they were actually nice B10M interurbans) when one of the fastest train lines is there (even if Northallerton and Thirsk stations aren't well located).

I really can't see much scope for long bus services with all the issues of drivers hours and reliability as well as differing vehicle size requirements.

** off topic - most X15/X18 changeovers are at Alnwick esp with Alnwick outstation drivers which is why the old travel office is retained as a welfare facility but some do occur in Morpeth as well

 

[YorkRailFan]

It is a long time ago (probably early 2000s) but Stagecoach Darlington did extend their Newcastle Express south of Darlington to run via Northallerton, Thirsk and Easingwold to York but why spend ages on a bus (they were actually nice B10M interurbans) when one of the fastest train lines is there (even if Northallerton and Thirsk stations aren't well located).

Northallerton's station isn't too bad location wise, it also has the 73 running twice an hour. Thirsk's station has a much worse location and worse bus connections into Thirsk. Perhaps there's scope for improving buses between Thirsk & Thirsk Station? Say a minibus connecting with trains at the station?

off topic - most X15/X18 changeovers are at Alnwick esp with Alnwick outstation drivers which is why the old travel office is retained as a welfare facility but some do occur in Morpeth as well

Thank you, I thought that's where driver changes occurred.

I really can't see much scope for long bus services with all the issues of drivers hours and reliability as well as differing vehicle size requirements

I agree with that. Journey times would be abysmal to be worthwhile.

 

[stevieinselby]

Yeah totally agreed, not going to lie and I'm not sure how feasible it would be but imo the best thing you could do because of how sparse it is to have ultra long services.

Have the likes of
York - Easingwold - Thirsk - Northallerton - Darlington
York - Easingwold - Helmsley - Pickering - Scarborough
Ripon - Thirsk - Northallerton - Hutton Redby - Stokesley - Great Ayton - Middlesborough
Leyburn - Bedale - Leeming - Northallerton

There's very very little demand from end to end but there might be the odd demand in the bits between and the services already all exist anyway but they're in small chunks instead terminating at random places like Stokesley, Kirkbymoorside and Bedale which are never going to places where there's a huge demand for.

Obviously you'd have to have 1 driver do a run, have his 30 minute break then return on the same bus similar to the likes of the X18 in Northumberland which would be a dreadful bus service if it was Berwick - Seahouses, Bamburgh - Alnwick, Alnwick - Newcastle, Berwick - Alnwick which basically these services are doing and it's as sparse up there.

The X14, X15, X18 and X20 are fantastic set of routes to deal with a sparse area and do well really.

I'm not convinced that those ultra-long routes are worthwhile – the longer the route, the more complicated it becomes to timetable, schedule and operate robustly and reliably. You end up with buses running a long way from their home depot, which makes it vulnerable in the event of breakdowns or other problems. It's harder to vary frequency or capacity on different sections of the route to meet demand appropriately.

Very long routes tend to work well in two circumstances: (1) where they fill a significant gap in the rail network connecting substantial towns with no useful rail link, and (b) links from sizeable urban areas to the seaside. Those are the times when people will be prepared to sit on a bus for a long journey ... and if you haven't got through passengers then you haven't got a rationale for a through service.
In North Yorkshire, the X93/X94 and Coastliner meet those goals, but not the routes you've suggested.

• York – Northallerton – Darlington is a corridor that is well served by rail. There is strong demand for buses between York, Easingwold and Thirsk, but not beyond that. Northallerton to York is at least every half-hour by train, with journeys taking 20–30 minutes, whereas by bus you would be looking at 90 minutes. From York to Darlington, it's even worse. Demand for travel from any other intermediate villages is minimal.
• York – Helmsley – Scarborough is a long way round for no good reason. It would take about an hour longer from York to Scarborough than the direct 843, and probably 45 minutes longer from York to Pickering than the direct 840. Demand for travel from Easingwold to Pickering and Scarborough (and other intermediate villages along those two corridors) is negligible.
• Ripon – Northallerton – Middlesbrough is not serving any viable market long-distance. It just isn't.
• Leyburn – Northallerton has been done to death already but isn't an ultra-long route anyway.

That isn't to say that I think all the bus services along those corridors are adequate and are not in need of improvement – but that the improvements need to be localised and tailored to what potential market there is. For example, I do believe that the Scarborough to Helmsley corridor merits an hourly service ... but I can't see the need for that frequency between Helmsley and York, increasing that to every 2 hours would be ample. That's why linking them together isn't the right solution, because demand is going to vary significantly at different points along the route.

 

[WAB]

There has been a lot of talk about resourcing rural routes, but I can't help but think that the public benefit of an equivalent investment in the urban areas of YNY would be far better use of the money. So many of the rural services are not really usable around the demands of modern life and are really only suitable for those who can rearrange their lives to accommodate the timetable. A couple of extra trips per day is not going to move the dial on this.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There has been a lot of talk about resourcing rural routes, but I can't help but think that the public benefit of an equivalent investment in the urban areas of YNY would be far better use of the money. So many of the rural services are not really usable around the demands of modern life and are really only suitable for those who can rearrange their lives to accommodate the timetable. A couple of extra trips per day is not going to move the dial on this.

Exactly this - they need to be looking at Harrogate/Knaresborough area, Scarborough, Richmond/Catterick and, of course, York plus the odd other selected one around other towns but much of the county is full of sheep not people.

 

[stevieinselby]

Exactly this - they need to be looking at Harrogate/Knaresborough area, Scarborough, Richmond/Catterick and, of course, York plus the odd other selected one around other towns but much of the county is full of sheep not people.

My impression from what the mayor has been saying previously is that his emphasis is on the very rural areas that don't have so much a skeleton service as a couple of loosely connected bones and that's it. But if he can be talked out of that being the focus of the project, then for franchising to be genuinely beneficial, it needs to be in areas where there is a substantial commercial network that is under-delivering. (If it is already doing well then it's fine as it is, and if there isn't a substantial commercial network then the authority can bring about improvements through subsidy contracts.)

Harrogate and Knaresborough already has a strong commercial network using high quality buses. Yes, there are some gaps in provision, but those can easily be filled with a few subsidy contracts without needing the complexity and expense of taking control of the core network.

Scarborough has a reasonably extensive commercial network, although most of it isn't particularly frequent outside of a couple of key corridors, but I don't know how much need there is for it to be improved beyond what is provided now. What may be hampering passenger growth at the moment is that Go-ahead have been continually mucking about with it and completely redrawing the network several times in the last few years. I don't know that any of the changes individually have made things worse, but the more changes there are the harder it is for people to keep track of where the buses go, and the less likely people are to use them for any journeys other than between home and the town centre.

York's commercial network is definitely not living up to its potential, and is suffering from Firstgroup's policy of barely managed decline – while they have had the investment of new electric buses in the last few years, the timetables are still woeful, at least in part due to their obsession with using AI-generated timetables that are just full of random numbers that make no sense. There is definitely scope for improvement there, even if it's as simple as "run at a regular 15-minute interval" instead of "rolling a dice, flipping a coin and subtracting the colour of your socks" leading to irregular intervals of between 14 and 18 minutes and no two journeys having exactly the same running time between stops as they do now. But with so many core corridors within York being served substantially by out-of-town buses, it would be a tricky balance to manage to take control of enough of the network to really make a difference without getting scope creep and picking up too many interurban routes that don't really need any improvement.

Richmond and Catterick Garrison has the potential pitfall that the main destination for the buses is outside the combined authority area, so there is the question of jurisdiction and to what extent YNYCA would take control of buses running into Darlington. It's also a very small set of routes to set up a franchise for, barely equivalent to a single small lot in West Yorkshire's model, even if you're looking at all buses running in the towns and with improved services.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Its worth noting regarding all of this that we are less than two years away from the next Mayoral election in York & North Yorkshire. Its too early for any polling for said election but North Yorkshire (excluding York) has primarily been a Conservative heartland for many years. That fell apart in 2024 and Labour managed to win the Mayorality. Its difficult to say what will happen in 2028. The Mayor could continue as is at a slow rate and offer bus franchising as his offer on the ballot box or he could move quickly to get some way to implementing franchising and make it harder for a potential successor who isn't politically aligned with him to undo the work he's done to implement franchising.

Its interesting times ahead that's for sure. Agree that Harrogate/Knaresborough have a strong commercial network with high quality buses. Of course, Scarborough doesn't have as high quality buses as Harrogate and its commercial network has changed a lot recently. Scarborough isn't alone in having older buses as a good chunk of East Yorkshire's fleet will need replacing in the coming years.

Also agree that First's AI timetables are very annoying in York. Thankfully they've done away with them on the 10 (for now) but for services like the 1/1A, 4, 5/5A, 6, 11/11A, etc, its very annoying.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

My impression from what the mayor has been saying previously is that his emphasis is on the very rural areas that don't have so much a skeleton service as a couple of loosely connected bones and that's it. But if he can be talked out of that being the focus of the project, then for franchising to be genuinely beneficial, it needs to be in areas where there is a substantial commercial network that is under-delivering. (If it is already doing well then it's fine as it is, and if there isn't a substantial commercial network then the authority can bring about improvements through subsidy contracts.)

Harrogate and Knaresborough already has a strong commercial network using high quality buses. Yes, there are some gaps in provision, but those can easily be filled with a few subsidy contracts without needing the complexity and expense of taking control of the core network.

Scarborough has a reasonably extensive commercial network, although most of it isn't particularly frequent outside of a couple of key corridors, but I don't know how much need there is for it to be improved beyond what is provided now. What may be hampering passenger growth at the moment is that Go-ahead have been continually mucking about with it and completely redrawing the network several times in the last few years. I don't know that any of the changes individually have made things worse, but the more changes there are the harder it is for people to keep track of where the buses go, and the less likely people are to use them for any journeys other than between home and the town centre.

York's commercial network is definitely not living up to its potential, and is suffering from Firstgroup's policy of barely managed decline – while they have had the investment of new electric buses in the last few years, the timetables are still woeful, at least in part due to their obsession with using AI-generated timetables that are just full of random numbers that make no sense. There is definitely scope for improvement there, even if it's as simple as "run at a regular 15-minute interval" instead of "rolling a dice, flipping a coin and subtracting the colour of your socks" leading to irregular intervals of between 14 and 18 minutes and no two journeys having exactly the same running time between stops as they do now. But with so many core corridors within York being served substantially by out-of-town buses, it would be a tricky balance to manage to take control of enough of the network to really make a difference without getting scope creep and picking up too many interurban routes that don't really need any improvement.

Richmond and Catterick Garrison has the potential pitfall that the main destination for the buses is outside the combined authority area, so there is the question of jurisdiction and to what extent YNYCA would take control of buses running into Darlington. It's also a very small set of routes to set up a franchise for, barely equivalent to a single small lot in West Yorkshire's model, even if you're looking at all buses running in the towns and with improved services.

What's he gonna do... return buses to Bilsdale as, as Moorsbus demonstrates there's a demand? Or Coverdale or Thornton Steward - all places that have largely fallen off the public transport map. As I'm bored of saying, we can't just spend an extra £100k's+ on developing new or introducing enhanced services in areas where the base population is small. That isn't to say that there aren't some links that would benefit and whilst not commercial, the juice would be worth the squeeze.

If the emphasis is on the absolute most rural areas, then that's just going to waste money. Money for which the source seems unclear, and if we step away from the crayons, that is the point. Let's forget the money to set up franchising - assume it's some dowry from central government. It's the day to day revenue budget that bothers me because there's too little good stuff to cross-subsidise the others, and the population of North Yorkshire is very small - the population of Greater Manchester is 3m in a very densely populated area whereas North Yorkshire has 1.2m rattling around in it so fewer folks to tax.

Agree with your comments on Harrogate. Scarborough is really crying out for a bit of stability and some TLC rather than East Yorkshire pursuing these rather low return expansions elsewhere in North Yorkshire. And don't get me started on First and their AI timetables...

As for Richmond and Catterick, a franchise package could be crafted for Richmondshire and Hambleton though it would be small. However, I wouldn't see Darlington being an issue... the routes are predominantly in North Yorkshire and the logical place to terminate them is Darlington. Same with 79 to Barney. However, I can't see it happening.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Agree with your comments on Harrogate. Scarborough is really crying out for a bit of stability and some TLC rather than East Yorkshire pursuing these rather low return expansions elsewhere in North Yorkshire. And don't get me started on First and their AI timetables...

Agree about East Yorkshire's expansion in North Yorkshire. They had quite a lot of problems in 2024 when launching North Riding. Doesn't help matters that East Yorkshire as a whole is loaning buses to West Yorkshire. They're building a new depot in Scarborough, it might not help with stability of the network, but its a beginning with investment.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Agree about East Yorkshire's expansion in North Yorkshire. They had quite a lot of problems in 2024 when launching North Riding. Doesn't help matters that East Yorkshire as a whole is loaning buses to West Yorkshire. They're building a new depot in Scarborough, it might not help with stability of the network, but its a beginning with investment.

I can see why they might be distracted with West Yorkshire and the untold riches that they might get from that. However, spending time trying to sort out some rather disparate services in North Yorkshire for relatively little return seems a stretch too far.