West London Orbital - Future Interchange Aspirations

[mr_jrt]

From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-london-orbital-consultation.307477/post-7960948

I conversely think that it is good to spread the interchanges on the route to not overload any single place and to placemake some outer focal minor ‘hubs’ (ie somewhere with two lines!)

Neasden has a ton of housing potential, much as has been done at Wembley. But you wouldn’t call Met services there. Harlesden might see the same.

And as for West Hampstead - in another lifetime yes ideal but not remotely possible in the footprint today. But Finchley Road is already a major focal point and interchange (esp w buses, coaches) and bridges into Hampstead, Frognal etc - quite a wide catchment)

You know, I read this the other day, and largely agreed, I think it would be nice, but won't happen. But you know what, this is a forum of intelligent reasonably-informed people, so why not ask the questions and have a discussion?

So, this thread is intended as a discussion for what would be ideal down the line, once the traffic has built up. Or if we lived in a world where there was the money to build things to a higher-standard off the bat, like we used to.

So...

Why not move the primary Met interchange to a rebuilt Neasden, effectively extending the Stanmore and Uxbridge branches by a single station?

Everything stays accessible, it makes little difference to Stanmore branch passengers as they can continue to change to the Uxbridge services that will still call, and Neasden is just an extra stop for the Uxbridge branch passengers, and a different one for the outer Met passengers for the services that already stop at Wembley Park.

Wembley Park can still be served by the Met on special occasions (or even all off-peak, kinda like how the "fast" Met platforms there are, or at least used to be, used?), but Neasden becomes the all-day primary interchange between the Met branches and the Jubilee.

In times past I even mused if, with the platforms moved eastwards for a new hub station, there would be room for the Jubilee to have a diveunder and take the Sudburys off Chiltern (with a bit of four tracking, of course!). I suspect the Sudburys would have dramatically more use if they had somewhere more local to connect to, like an interchange at Neasden, rather than just Marylebone.

The same argument largely plays out the same for West Hampstead, but whilst it would be even better interchange, space is unfortunately even more restricted thanks to over-development without the prerequisite transport hub enhancements. I'm largely skipping it here as the branch has been de-scoped, but feel free to discuss it if you want.

Harlesden, whilst dramatically less useful, is also dramatically easier to integrate better due to more land and less other lines around it to link to. You could arguably link the two with some walkways with little effort, but platform extensions under the B4492 bridge would make that link even shorter. The bridge would probably need major work, though!

 

[Metrider]

From: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-london-orbital-consultation.307477/post-7960948

You know, I read this the other day, and largely agreed, I think it would be nice, but won't happen. But you know what, this is a forum of intelligent reasonably-informed people, so why not ask the questions and have a discussion?

So, this thread is intended as a discussion for what would be ideal down the line, once the traffic has built up. Or if we lived in a world where there was the money to build things to a higher-standard off the bat, like we used to.

So...

Why not move the primary Met interchange to a rebuilt Neasden, effectively extending the Stanmore and Uxbridge branches by a single station?

Everything stays accessible, it makes little difference to Stanmore branch passengers as they can continue to change to the Uxbridge services that will still call, and Neasden is just an extra stop for the Uxbridge branch passengers, and a different one for the outer Met passengers for the services that already stop at Wembley Park.

Wembley Park can still be served by the Met on special occasions (or even all off-peak, kinda like how the "fast" Met platforms there are, or at least used to be, used?), but Neasden becomes the all-day primary interchange between the Met branches and the Jubilee.

In times past I even mused if, with the platforms moved eastwards for a new hub station, there would be room for the Jubilee to have a diveunder and take the Sudburys off Chiltern (with a bit of four tracking, of course!). I suspect the Sudburys would have dramatically more use if they had somewhere more local to connect to, like an interchange at Neasden, rather than just Marylebone.

The same argument largely plays out the same for West Hampstead, but whilst it would be even better interchange, space is unfortunately even more restricted thanks to over-development without the prerequisite transport hub enhancements. I'm largely skipping it here as the branch has been de-scoped, but feel free to discuss it if you want.

Harlesden, whilst dramatically less useful, is also dramatically easier to integrate better due to more land and less other lines around it to link to. You could arguably link the two with some walkways with little effort, but platform extensions under the B4492 bridge would make that link even shorter. The bridge would probably need major work, though!

While I would hope that the Metropolitan line stops at Neasden in due course (and it shouldn't be so difficult, given that Neasden already has the platforms to accommodate this), I wouldn't want the trains to then not stop at Wembley Park. Wembley is an important stop for people coming in from out of town to see sports, bands, etc. at the stadium. And for interchange it's cross-platform between the Met and Jubilee there, which it wouldn't be at Neasden.

As someone who has walked many times between Finchley Road and Finchley Road & Frognal to interchange with Mildmay, I would of course love a stop at West Hampstead, but that's never going to happen.

 

[mr_jrt]

If you left the Neasden platforms as they are, I wonder if you could knock the siding/headshunt north of the platform though under the road as a new running line, which would then give you your cross platform dual island layout.

Alternatively, shift the Chiltern lines south, and have the same setup as at Wembley Park, with two Met tracks, a eastbound island, the two Jubilee tracks, the westbound island, then the two down Met tracks.

My preference would be to rebuild the station to the east between Neasden Lane and the Dudding Hill line, but the space is more constrained there, so I'm not sure what could be achieved. Awkwardly, there are residential buildings on the northern side of the tracks west of the Dudding Hill line, and south of it on the east, which makes widening the railway footprint for platforms there much more difficult. Given where the WLO platforms are to be built though, I'd wager trimming the gardens to the south (along with industrial acquisitions) would probably be required.

 

[Mgameing123]

While I would hope that the Metropolitan line stops at Neasden in due course (and it shouldn't be so difficult, given that Neasden already has the platforms to accommodate this), I wouldn't want the trains to then not stop at Wembley Park. Wembley is an important stop for people coming in from out of town to see sports, bands, etc. at the stadium. And for interchange it's cross-platform between the Met and Jubilee there, which it wouldn't be at Neasden.

As someone who has walked many times between Finchley Road and Finchley Road & Frognal to interchange with Mildmay, I would of course love a stop at West Hampstead, but that's never going to happen.

I mean trains already skip Wembley Park in the morning so it's not the biggest loss atleast for fast and semi fast services. But yes I agree that Wembley Park should retain it's Metropolitan service.

 

[cle]

Could all through Met service to beyond Wembley Park use the fast Met lines and platforms.

And Neasden become a terminus for extra slow patterns and use those lines for that? Or terminate at Wembley Park on the same lines.

So a set of services which are:
Finchley Rd / Neasden / Wembley Park only
And the rest are Wembley Park and then stations, per today.

Made possibly by the SSR completion and additional Met TPH which isn’t desperately needed beyond Harrow (or at all really)

 

[Mgameing123]

Could all through Met service to beyond Wembley Park use the fast Met lines and platforms.

And Neasden become a terminus for extra slow patterns and use those lines for that? Or terminate at Wembley Park on the same lines.

So a set of services which are:
Finchley Rd / Neasden / Wembley Park only
And the rest are Wembley Park and then stations, per today.

Made possibly by the SSR completion and additional Met TPH which isn’t desperately needed beyond Harrow (or at all really)

To be fair I'd love for TFL to convert the all day all stations services to Watford/Chesham/Amersham to semi fast services then let the 8 tph Uxbridge branch serve Preston Road and Northwick Park.

 

[Metrider]

To be fair I'd love for TFL to convert the all day all stations services to Watford/Chesham/Amersham to semi fast services then let the 8 tph Uxbridge branch serve Preston Road and Northwick Park.

That would suit me! I'd say that Uxbridge folks might not be happy with it, but actually they wouldn't be losing much as I don't think there are any semi-fasts that use the Uxbridge line (or at least, it's very rare compared to the other branch).

 

[Mgameing123]

That would suit me! I'd say that Uxbridge folks might not be happy with it, but actually they wouldn't be losing much as I don't think there are any semi-fasts that use the Uxbridge line (or at least, it's very rare compared to the other branch).

I mean Uxbridge can have semi fast services. I'm just saying the off peak 8 tph should be the only trains stopping at Preston Road and Northwick Park because there aren't many people using those stations.

 

[SynthD]

One reason not to stop the Met at Neasden is that it would spread the Wembley Stadium load. When there will be some post Wembley event demand for the WLO, separating that from the central London journeys on the Met would help everyone at Wembley Park.

 

[cle]

I don't actually know how busy or transformational the WLO will be for interchange, eg Neasden - will it become a huge interchange. For which journeys?

Hendon and BXW have the Jubilee via West Hampstead. Northbound they might do Neasden, but tiny demand.
Harlesden way - doubtful as Baker St exists but maybe a tiny bit.
Further afield, I don't really see the Jubilee use. As from OOC you get to Bond St in a flash.

Neasden itself might see more demand - ie to Ikea, for Wembley, new devts there.

 

[Metrider]

I don't actually know how busy or transformational the WLO will be for interchange, eg Neasden - will it become a huge interchange. For which journeys?

Hendon and BXW have the Jubilee via West Hampstead. Northbound they might do Neasden, but tiny demand.
Harlesden way - doubtful as Baker St exists but maybe a tiny bit.
Further afield, I don't really see the Jubilee use. As from OOC you get to Bond St in a flash.

Neasden itself might see more demand - ie to Ikea, for Wembley, new devts there.

I pretty much agree. I'm planning to use it to get to OOC from the Met - might not be a huge time saving, but sometimes it's nice not to go into the city center.

I think I've read it summed up elsewhere as "You wouldn't build the WLO if it was a brand new line", but the saving from re-using the Dudding Hill line makes it semi-worthwhile as it's definitely the cheapest way to add a new tube line to the map.

Maybe it's the most useful for people living on the southern part? If you lived in Isleworth or Brentford, it might be quite exciting to finally appear on the tube map, and not have to start every journey into town by going to Waterloo?

 

[cle]

I pretty much agree. I'm planning to use it to get to OOC from the Met - might not be a huge time saving, but sometimes it's nice not to go into the city center.

I think I've read it summed up elsewhere as "You wouldn't build the WLO if it was a brand new line", but the saving from re-using the Dudding Hill line makes it semi-worthwhile as it's definitely the cheapest way to add a new tube line to the map.

Maybe it's the most useful for people living on the southern part? If you lived in Isleworth or Brentford, it might be quite exciting to finally appear on the tube map, and not have to start every journey into town by going to Waterloo?

Yeah I agree. It's a lot of placemaking along that North Circular to A4/M4 Flyover arc which has seen a lot of develpment. Eveyrthing from jobs at Sky to massive apartment builds, Chiswick Park jobs (back entrance to South Acton), the crazy building at Gyspy Corner (which will be absorbed into OOC) - etc etc - and big plans at Neasden and Brent Cross of course.

And many of those commutes are drives today, so it'll give a transit option for some outer journeys. Buses are hideous re speed.

But the interchanges aren't super critical on the north side, West Hampstead today covers Jubilee and Thameslink. Willesden Junction does what Harlesden brings.

South side - probably quite exciting. if you live in Isleworth, you now might get to OOC in 15, but then to Bond St in 7-8 and City in another 15. Which beats the Vauxhall/Waterloo set up, or the Piccadilly slog. It's a game-changer for that route, if it lines up well.