York and north Yorkshire franchising

[YorkRailFan]

I'm a bit unclear as to the "hourly" reference. I've done some sums below based on the current service being run with full sized buses but are you suggesting that the service should be hourly from Bedale to Hawes?

The hourly reference comes from the post you were replying to:

The 73 already runs a roughly 30 minute headway commercially, with subsidies to run a couple of journeys each way as 53 and divert them via Leeming Village.
That's the only section of the route that I would run every 30 minutes – one bus an hour running from Northallerton to Bedale only, using a full-size bus, and one bus an hour continuing on to Leyburn and Hawes, using a smaller bus.

(My bolding)

And the benefit... A through service from Northallerton for a handful of people. If there's £200k to be spent, spend it on an extra bus on the 80/89. A more logical approach would be to have LWB run the service from Hawes to Bedale (if they can resource it) and then have decent connections with the 53/73 rather than send an e200 up the top end of the dale for the rather limited market it serves. I just don't see that the benefit really justifies the money.

I think it would be better for Procters to extend one 73 an hour to Leyburn and have better connections onto the 156 there. The problem with extending the 156 to Bedale is some journeys currently extend beyond Leyburn to Catterick Garrison to serve Tesco for people in Upper Wensleydale to do their shopping. Leyburn is an extra 30 minutes from Bedale according to the current 155 timetable, its population is just under 2000 (2021 Census) and would benefit from a direct link to the County Town and its train station. Resources wouldn't be as much as running a direct bus to Hawes and there's likely more demand from Leyburn than Hawes or anywhere in between. If it were hourly, it would require 2 buses with a third needed for the half-hourly bit between Bedale & Northallerton. The current PVR for the 53/73 is currently 2-3 for 2bph.

The point isn't that Hodgsons will be able to operate an e200 cheaper than LWB; more that the overall operating cost will be considerably higher, and to what end. With some fag packet maths, I reckon the fuel cost will essentially double on the 155 and 156 - that'll be about £150k p.a. Meanwhile the driver cost will probably go up by 50% - that'll be another £60k. I've not bothered with other considerations like capital cost/depreciation

Procters could likely operate a minibus for less than Little White Bus, simply because of their economy of scale. Procters could do an E200 for more than Little White Bus do a minibus, but Procters can more easily source an E200 than Little White Bus. I say Procters as they'll have less dead running out of Leeming Bar than Hodgsons from Barnard Castle and Procters could work it into the 53/73.

And the benefit... A through service from Northallerton for a handful of people. If there's £200k to be spent, spend it on an extra bus on the 80/89. A more logical approach would be to have LWB run the service from Hawes to Bedale (if they can resource it) and then have decent connections with the 53/73 rather than send an e200 up the top end of the dale for the rather limited market it serves. I just don't see that the benefit really justifies the money.

Both would bring a benefit. People along both routes would benefit from better connections into Northallerton (and also Stokesley in regards to the 80/89) but also more tourism from better bus links into these areas. Osmotherly is a popular destination for walkers on the 80/89, as is Leyburn. I wouldn't say just under 2000 people (Census 2021) is a limited market for a rural bus in North Yorkshire.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Procters could likely operate a minibus for less than Little White Bus, simply because of their economy of scale. Procters could do an E200 for more than Little White Bus do a minibus, but Procters can more easily source an E200 than Little White Bus. I say Procters as they'll have less dead running out of Leeming Bar than Hodgsons from Barnard Castle and Procters could work it into the 53/73.

Any commercial operator, whether Proctors or Hodgsons, have to pay the driver whereas most of LWB's drivers are volunteers and they're not for profit. LWB has a much lower cost base, they use Sprinters so that volunteers can be employed.

It's a false argument to say that Proctors can run an e200 cheaper than LWB; LWB can run a Sprinter much more cheaply than anyone can run an e200 and that's why they operate those routes. The cost base is lower and the loadings don't justify the use of a larger vehicle. I can't find the most recent tenders but the 2019 showed the difference between the 30 and the 79 - a Sprinter cost £107k p.a. whilst an e200 was £204k p.a. for fairly comparable work.

Thank you for clarifying the point on the hourly bit; in the many posts, it was a bit unclear. It's a massive additional cost though. You may, or may not, recall when North Yorkshire County Council (as was) did have a slug of central government funding in 1999. They actually had an hourly 156/157 service that ran from Northallerton to Hawes - run initially by Wensleydale Railway Co and then by Dales and District. It was a massive increase in what went before, and even now, it's still better than in 1998. However, even before the large scale reductions from austerity, they had dropped it down to where it is now because the passengers just aren't there.

I think it would be better for Procters to extend one 73 an hour to Leyburn and have better connections onto the 156 there. The problem with extending the 156 to Bedale is some journeys currently extend beyond Leyburn to Catterick Garrison to serve Tesco for people in Upper Wensleydale to do their shopping. Leyburn is an extra 30 minutes from Bedale according to the current 155 timetable, its population is just under 2000 (2021 Census) and would benefit from a direct link to the County Town and its train station. Resources wouldn't be as much as running a direct bus to Hawes and there's likely more demand from Leyburn than Hawes or anywhere in between. If it were hourly, it would require 2 buses with a third needed for the half-hourly bit between Bedale & Northallerton. The current PVR for the 53/73 is currently 2-3 for 2bph.

There's one bus that runs down to the Garrison; you'd be able to send one of the 159s south from Richmond and that would suffice for most passengers. Most people in Upper Wensleydale won't travel past Leyburn and people don't spend 90 to 120 mins travelling to Northallerton.

I would love to see improvements to bus services in North Yorkshire. There isn't limitless cash to throw about. So in that case, you look at what makes sense. Sunday service to Stokesley from 'Boro... Better services from Richmond to the Garrison and Catterick Village... Uplifting the Stokesley to Northallerton service... Spending £200k so a handful of people can travel on a too large a bus and not have to change is not a good use of finite funds.

Seriously, look at my avatar. What part of the country do you think I grew up in, and where my family still live?

 

[YorkRailFan]

It's a false argument to say that Proctors can run an e200 cheaper than LWB; LWB can run a Sprinter much more cheaply than anyone can run an e200 and that's why they operate those routes. The cost base is lower and the loadings don't justify the use of a larger vehicle. I can't find the most recent tenders but the 2019 showed the difference between the 30 and the 79 - a Sprinter cost £107k p.a. whilst an e200 was £204k p.a. for fairly comparable work.

I'm not saying that Procters can run an E200 for less than Little White Bus can provide a Sprinter. I'm saying that Procters can provide an E200 for less than Little White Bus can provide an E200. Procters can more easily source an E200 than Little White Bus can source an E200.

There's one bus that runs down to the Garrison; you'd be able to send one of the 159s south from Richmond and that would suffice for most passengers. Most people in Upper Wensleydale won't travel past Leyburn and people don't spend 90 to 120 mins travelling to Northallerton.

People in Leyburn would benefit from a direct service to Northallerton, preferably hourly. Your point about Little White Bus incorporating the 155 into the 156, I think it would be easier for the 155 to be merged into a 73. Leyburn benefits from a direct service to Northallerton and better connections with the 156 in Leyburn to benefit those in Upper Wensleydale. I don't think passenger numbers on the 155 show the full picture. The 155 is 5 return trips between Leyburn & Bedale, with poor connections onto Northallerton on the 53/73. A direct bus from Leyburn would be far more appealing than the 155 is currently and would benefit the town. Current timetabling says it would take 1 hour directly, so would require 2 buses to provide an hourly service between Northallerton & Leyburn, plus an extra 2 buses to maintain a half-hourly service between Bedale & Northallerton.

There's one bus that runs down to the Garrison; you'd be able to send one of the 159s south from Richmond and that would suffice for most passengers. Most people in Upper Wensleydale won't travel past Leyburn and people don't spend 90 to 120 mins travelling to Northallerton.

I think the shopper service to Catterick Garrison Tesco is quite popular. Perhaps not every day though. I think regulars on the 156 will use it 1-2 days a week to get their shopping in. If you extend the 159, you'd need to run it from Richmond to Leyburn via Catterick Garrison to meet the 156 so the connection to Tesco could be maintained. I think its easiest to keep the 156 as is with Catterick Garrison and merge the 155 into a 73. Leyburn probably could keep a E200 (with financial support from the Council) patronage wise to Northallerton. As I've said, Leyburn has a base for passenger numbers and is close enough to Northallerton for people to travel regularly to, especially with the train station in Northallerton which the 53/73 serve.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm not saying that Procters can run an E200 for less than Little White Bus can provide a Sprinter. I'm saying that Procters can provide an E200 for less than Little White Bus can provide an E200. Procters can more easily source an E200 than Little White Bus can source an E200.

I know what you're saying.

The reality is that if you wanted to replace Sprinters with e200s, it is a substantial cost increase, irrespective of whether it is Proctors, or Hodgsons or anybody else, if only for the fuel. However, replace volunteer driven Sprinters with e200s and a proper "commercial" operator and that cost difference is even more because of staff costs.

What we are talking about is the replacement of Sprinters with full size buses, and that is much more expensive that now.

People in Leyburn would benefit from a direct service to Northallerton, preferably hourly. Your point about Little White Bus incorporating the 155 into the 156, I think it would be easier for the 155 to be merged into a 73. Leyburn benefits from a direct service to Northallerton and better connections with the 156 in Leyburn to benefit those in Upper Wensleydale. I don't think passenger numbers on the 155 show the full picture. The 155 is 5 return trips between Leyburn & Bedale, with poor connections onto Northallerton on the 53/73. A direct bus from Leyburn would be far more appealing than the 155 is currently and would benefit the town. Current timetabling says it would take 1 hour directly, so would require 2 buses to provide an hourly service between Northallerton & Leyburn, plus an extra 2 buses to maintain a half-hourly service between Bedale & Northallerton.

I'm going to break this down, point by point...

• People in Leyburn would benefit from a direct service to Northallerton, preferably hourly.
  • You can attribute that "benefit statement" to anything - an express from Selby to Scarborough? a night bus to Keld? an open top bus service around Colburn? Obviously, I'm being flippant but any service to anywhere could have a benefit statement applied
  • Merely saying there's "a benefit" is an imprecise phrase and has to be quantified - how many people, how much benefit, and how much compared to the cost - we shall come to that later
• Incorporating the 155 into the 156, I think it would be easier for the 155 to be merged into a 73. Leyburn benefits from a direct service to Northallerton and better connections with the 156 in Leyburn to benefit those in Upper Wensleydale
  • For ten years or more, there was a direct service from Hawes to Leyburn.
  • It was initially hourly from Northallerton to Hawes, dovetailing with the 73
  • It was then cut back to operate just between Bedale and Hawes because the number of passengers travelling west of Bedale was low and it made sense to have smaller vehicles west of Bedale
  • Subsequently, it was agreed that the number of passengers on the 156/157 (as was) was so small that they were able to remove the Varios/Solos that did operate those routes and use 16 seat minibuses - same with the 155 - because the costs were much lower and the patronage that low
• I don't think passenger numbers on the 155 show the full picture
  • North Yorkshire Council did have the full picture; that's why they made the cuts they did in the mid 2000s (reducing it to two hourly)
  • It didn't make sense to run even midibuses west of Bedale
  • I'm uncertain what you think the full picture is or your basis for thinking this? That there is some great untapped market that now exists but didn't exist in 2005 or 2010?
• A direct bus from Leyburn would be far more appealing than the 155 is currently and would benefit the town.
  • Again, it's that vague "benefit statement". More appealing... what sort of uptake are we talking? Even a 50% uptake in patronage could be accommodated with the current fleet
• Current timetabling says it would take 1 hour directly, so would require 2 buses to provide an hourly service between Northallerton & Leyburn, plus an extra 2 buses to maintain a half-hourly service between Bedale & Northallerton.
  
  • Well yes, that's easy to work out

So let's get the costs established (roughly) and try to establish that cost benefit analysis

I'm struggling to find where NYC publish their tender results (though I stumbled on something last night - perhaps someone has a link somewhere??) and I'll adopt a full day costing (ignoring that the 155 is operated off peak with a vehicle from schools)

• We can ignore the bit between Northallerton and Bedale as that will be cost neutral - two conventional vehicles running as present
• What we are looking at is the cost of the current 155 vs an enhanced 155 using some broad brush
  • Current Sprinter on 155 = £600 per day
  • Two e200s on 155 = £1400 per day
• So the additional cost is about £800 per day
• This is a service that carries probably 40-50 passengers per day currently
• Even if there was an unprecedented increase in passengers by 50% - it's 20 more journeys a day for an extra £800 - it simply doesn't make sense

For instance, your pet peeve is the 28 from Scarborough to Pickering. If you were to spend that money on an extra vehicle there, would it have a greater benefit? I'm sure it would, and more than an extra 20 passenger journeys per day.

And that's point. There isn't an unlimited amount of funds to be had and I'd sooner see them targeted at services with real potential than some spurious idea that's been tried before and failed.

I think the shopper service to Catterick Garrison Tesco is quite popular. Perhaps not every day though. I think regulars on the 156 will use it 1-2 days a week to get their shopping in. If you extend the 159, you'd need to run it from Richmond to Leyburn via Catterick Garrison to meet the 156 so the connection to Tesco could be maintained. I think its easiest to keep the 156 as is with Catterick Garrison and merge the 155 into a 73. Leyburn probably could keep a E200 (with financial support from the Council) patronage wise to Northallerton. As I've said, Leyburn has a base for passenger numbers and is close enough to Northallerton for people to travel regularly to, especially with the train station in Northallerton which the 53/73 serve.

The people who get that bus (and there's not that many) mainly come from Leyburn. They certainly aren't coming from further up the dale and the timetable gives a really big clue... The one down in the morning comes down via Aysgarth and West Burton, the one back goes up the other side of the dale via Redmire and Carperby. And yes, you could run the 159 via Catterick Garrison if you wished on a couple of journeys - the time penalty is about 5 mins and whilst you miss out on Downholme, it barely has a passenger anyway.

I don't want to play this card too much but this is where I'm from. Born, raised, moved away but my family still live there. I don't know where you're getting the idea that there is some great untapped market in the Dales but it very sparsely populated. Going from every two hours off peak with a Sprinter to every hour with an e200 would be madness - there simply aren't the passengers to justify it, and they've tried before in any case. Remember the Einstein quote - madness is doing the same thing and expecting a different result!

********

Getting back to the more general point. There is a finite amount of funding that could be employed and franchising simply isn't going to do it as there's precious few good routes to subsidise the weak ones. It would need concerted funding (which is something that has never been North Yorkshire's strong suit even before deregulation) and where does that come from? A precept on every council tax payer - they're already getting full council tax increases as it is. Central funding a la BSIP - possibly but you don't need franchising for that.

If we're cracking the crayons out...

• An extra bus on the 10 to restore the half hourly frequency to Cayton?
• An extra bus on the 80/89 to provide that hourly combined headway over common sections (e.g. Brompton to Northallerton where it's needed), and create a two hourly service over the non-common parts of the services; add to that, a third bus and you could have it running express from Stokesley to Middlesbrough to create that link and augment the 28A
• An extra bus on the 28 to provide infills between Scarborough and Pickering and restore that hourly headway
• Work out an extension of the Sunday 29 to have a service from/to Stokesley
• More complex - try to divert the 34 between Richmond and Catterick via Colburn and put short working every other hour just to Catterick Village to create a 30 min headway with the X26 - I'd have to see how you can achieve that?
• An extra bus on the 70 between Northallerton and Ripon - perhaps replacing the 153 and then via Baldersby down to Sharow

In a time of limited funds, any one of those would be good initiative and better than dubious schemes in the Dales.

ps I've not included anything around Harrogate, Skipton or Selby as I don't know those areas very well

 

[YorkRailFan]

ps I've not included anything around Harrogate, Skipton or Selby as I don't know those areas very well

The main thing to do in the Selby area would be improve buses in Hemingbrough, currently 1 return trip during the week plus two extras on a Monday & Friday. Harrogate has quite a good local network and North Yorkshire Council themselves fill in quite a few gaps in the Skipton area.

Getting back to the more general point. There is a finite amount of funding that could be employed and franchising simply isn't going to do it as there's precious few good routes to subsidise the weak ones. It would need concerted funding (which is something that has never been North Yorkshire's strong suit even before deregulation) and where does that come from? A precept on every council tax payer - they're already getting full council tax increases as it is. Central funding a la BSIP - possibly but you don't need franchising for that.

This isn't under franchising though, this would be instead of franchising using the money that would instead have gone to franchising.

I don't think passenger numbers on the 155 show the full picture

• North Yorkshire Council did have the full picture; that's why they made the cuts they did in the mid 2000s (reducing it to two hourly)
• It didn't make sense to run even midibuses west of Bedale
• I'm uncertain what you think the full picture is or your basis for thinking this? That there is some great untapped market that now exists but didn't exist in 2005 or 2010?

The 155 is a self contained route currently. It connects poorly at either end for onward journeys. Currently, travelling from Leyburn to Northallerton is unattractive apart from on a Sunday. The 155 shows the limited demand for people travelling between Bedale & Leyburn plus the various hamlets off the A684. Not demand for a direct bus to Northallerton.

People in Leyburn would benefit from a direct service to Northallerton, preferably hourly.

• You can attribute that "benefit statement" to anything - an express from Selby to Scarborough? a night bus to Keld? an open top bus service around Colburn? Obviously, I'm being flippant but any service to anywhere could have a benefit statement applied
• Merely saying there's "a benefit" is an imprecise phrase and has to be quantified - how many people, how much benefit, and how much compared to the cost - we shall come to that later

The benefit is a direct link to the nearest train station providing connections around the country plus the County Town. Northallerton has various shops and supermarkets as well. The current options for someone in Leyburn is the 155 and a woeful connection onto the 73 to get a train or the 159 to Richmond with connections of 2-3 minutes or a half-hour wait onto a X26/X27 to Darlington. Its a 32 minute drive from Leyburn to Northallerton Station or a limited bus service that takes well over an hour to do the same.

Incorporating the 155 into the 156, I think it would be easier for the 155 to be merged into a 73. Leyburn benefits from a direct service to Northallerton and better connections with the 156 in Leyburn to benefit those in Upper Wensleydale

• For ten years or more, there was a direct service from Hawes to Leyburn.
• It was initially hourly from Northallerton to Hawes, dovetailing with the 73
• It was then cut back to operate just between Bedale and Hawes because the number of passengers travelling west of Bedale was low and it made sense to have smaller vehicles west of Bedale
• Subsequently, it was agreed that the number of passengers on the 156/157 (as was) was so small that they were able to remove the Varios/Solos that did operate those routes and use 16 seat minibuses - same with the 155 - because the costs were much lower and the patronage that low

Incorporating the 155 into the 156 assumes Little White Bus has the resources to do so or you tender someone to run the 156 and 155 together. Whether Little White Bus has or hasn't the resources is unknown. Merging the two services with a connection in Bedale onto Northallerton has no benefit for the town of nearly 2000 people (Leyburn) though! Whereas merging the 73 & 155 brings about a direct link to Northallerton Station and the County Town. This is better integration with rail (a benefit) and also other bus links in Northallerton (a benefit).

I'm struggling to find where NYC publish their tender results (though I stumbled on something last night - perhaps someone has a link somewhere??) and I'll adopt a full day costing (ignoring that the 155 is operated off peak with a vehicle from schools)

• We can ignore the bit between Northallerton and Bedale as that will be cost neutral - two conventional vehicles running as present
• What we are looking at is the cost of the current 155 vs an enhanced 155 using some broad brush
  • Current Sprinter on 155 = £600 per day
  • Two e200s on 155 = £1400 per day
• So the additional cost is about £800 per day
• This is a service that carries probably 40-50 passengers per day currently
• Even if there was an unprecedented increase in passengers by 50% - it's 20 more journeys a day for an extra £800 - it simply doesn't make sense

Using a minibus for Northallerton to Leyburn every hour is a capacity decrease for Northallerton-Bedale as is currently, even if you ignore the double decker on the 73 currently. If the Combined Authority is willing to spend millions of £ on franchising, why not use it instead on improving these rural connections?

Remember the Einstein quote - madness is doing the same thing and expecting a different result!

Its not the same thing though. Running a bus between Northallerton & Leyburn has lower costs than running a bus between Northallerton & Hawes both at the same frequency.

A direct bus from Leyburn would be far more appealing than the 155 is currently and would benefit the town.

• Again, it's that vague "benefit statement". More appealing... what sort of uptake are we talking? Even a 50% uptake in patronage could be accommodated with the current fleet

As it currently stands, the 155 is a slow, infrequent bus connecting two market towns and various hamlets on the way. It doesn't connect well for onward journeys, especially at Bedale. The benefit of a through service is a direct link to a train station in Northallerton, onward bus links to the rest of the County and beyond and of course a direct link to Northallerton, the County Town and of course a Market Town (I believe Saturday is market day). The 155 only had a Saturday service added in November 2024.

The people who get that bus (and there's not that many) mainly come from Leyburn. They certainly aren't coming from further up the dale and the timetable gives a really big clue... The one down in the morning comes down via Aysgarth and West Burton, the one back goes up the other side of the dale via Redmire and Carperby. And yes, you could run the 159 via Catterick Garrison if you wished on a couple of journeys - the time penalty is about 5 mins and whilst you miss out on Downholme, it barely has a passenger anyway.

I was chatting to some Little White Bus volunteers in June, they said the Catterick Garrison journeys are some of the more popular journeys they run.

For instance, your pet peeve is the 28 from Scarborough to Pickering. If you were to spend that money on an extra vehicle there, would it have a greater benefit? I'm sure it would, and more than an extra 20 passenger journeys per day.

I wouldn't be pitching the two against each other, they are two very different cases in very different circumstances. One is a rural link only possible directly on Sundays. The other is run by double deckers and briefly had excessive capacity on it (X3, X28, 128) and ran hourly up until a few years ago.

The reality is that if you wanted to replace Sprinters with e200s, it is a substantial cost increase, irrespective of whether it is Proctors, or Hodgsons or anybody else, if only for the fuel. However, replace volunteer driven Sprinters with e200s and a proper "commercial" operator and that cost difference is even more because of staff costs.

What we are talking about is the replacement of Sprinters with full size buses, and that is much more expensive that now.

A commercial bus operator (especially Procters given they're part of Go Ahead) can more easily absorb unexpected cost rises (like fuel) than a Community Transport Operator like Little White Bus. I'm sure there are services with far less patronage than a direct Northallerton-Leyburn bus running around in North Yorkshire with subsidy from the Council. The benefits are better transport integration, something North Yorkshire really needs. You can't justify running a Sprinter for Northallerton-Leyburn without then accounting for the lost capacity between Northallerton & Bedale every hour.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I was to respond to each and every one of your points @YorkRailFan but I don't know if you're reading what I am typing or just not getting it.

Here goes the easy ones

• I said that franchising won't allow the cross subsidy of a rural network because there are insufficient good routes and so any changes and development would require additional, external funding. Ok?
• There is a finite amount of funding to be had and hence, when I mentioned the 28, I asked you which you would prioritise. You know which one would make more sense.
• I have not, at any point, suggested using a Sprinter between Bedale and Northallerton. So rest easy on that one?

Now onto the trickier ones

• I have told you that North Yorkshire County Council supported an hourly service from Northallerton to Leyburn (and onward to Hawes) from 1999. The loadings were rubbish west of Bedale so what they did was...
  • Cut the route at Bedale
  • Reduce the frequency to every two hours west of Bedale
  • Only later did they then split it at Leyburn
• So your idea... They have already tried it and for several years so why repeat something that did not work? There's no major demographic changes and no evidence to suggest that it is needed

Now for your comments costs and the like...

• Whichever way you want to slice it, it costs a lot more to run an e200 than a Sprinter, irrespective of whether it is LWB or Hodgsons - you accept that?
• Adding extra and more expensive vehicles will add more cost - you accept that?
• The additional patronage will be minimal

Therefore, when you have a finite amount of funds, I cannot see the point in wasting money to send endless empty buses up to Leyburn when we tried that 20 years ago and it did not work. Instead, I'd sooner see money spent where it would do more good.

And I'll reiterate the point... You do not need to tell me what what facilities, what services etc are in Leyburn or Northallerton or Richmond. I know - it's where I'm from. I know those places better than you.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Now for your comments costs and the like...

• Whichever way you want to slice it, it costs a lot more to run an e200 than a Sprinter, irrespective of whether it is LWB or Hodgsons - you accept that?
• Adding extra and more expensive vehicles will add more cost - you accept that?
• The additional patronage will be minimal

Of course I accept that there will be extra costs but this is investing. We know that investing in buses generates more money than what was put in.

Here goes the easy ones

• I said that franchising won't allow the cross subsidy of a rural network because there are insufficient good routes and so any changes and development would require additional, external funding. Ok?
• There is a finite amount of funding to be had and hence, when I mentioned the 28, I asked you which you would prioritise. You know which one would make more sense.
• I have not, at any point, suggested using a Sprinter between Bedale and Northallerton. So rest easy on that one?

I see your suggestions of other changes In the area and agree with the ideas. Improvements to routes like the 28 would be prioritised over a direct Northallerton-Leyburn route, understandably, but it shouldn't be disregarded in my opinion.

• I have told you that North Yorkshire County Council supported an hourly service from Northallerton to Leyburn (and onward to Hawes) from 1999. The loadings were rubbish west of Bedale so what they did was...
  • Cut the route at Bedale
  • Reduce the frequency to every two hours west of Bedale
  • Only later did they then split it at Leyburn
• So your idea... They have already tried it and for several years so why repeat something that did not work? There's no major demographic changes and no evidence to suggest that it is needed

Running a direct Northallerton-Hawes bus costs more than a direct Northallerton-Leyburn bus with fuel and staff costs. At no point has a Northallerton-Leyburn (not continuing west of Leyburn) direct bus been tried. What has been tried as full routes is as follows:
- Direct Northallerton-Hawes
- Direct Hawes-Bedale
- Direct Hawes-Leyburn
- Direct Leyburn-Bedale
- Direct Northallerton-Bedale
No direct Northallerton-Leyburn bus as a full route.

Therefore, when you have a finite amount of funds, I cannot see the point in wasting money to send endless empty buses up to Leyburn when we tried that 20 years ago and it did not work. Instead, I'd sooner see money spent where it would do more good.

Yes we have a finite amount of funds but investing in buses does repay itself. The regional benefit of getting people from Leyburn to Northallerton and beyond, and on the flip side from Northallerton and beyond into Leyburn, is an investment into an area left behind in terms of buses. We as a society cannot be expecting people to use the bus, especially in areas like Wensleydale, when the bus service is as disjointed as it is currently and that goes for vast swathes of North Yorkshire. Direct Northallerton-Leyburn buses might not be the top of the list for changes in North Yorkshire (and likely shouldn't be) but they should be on that list.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Running a direct Northallerton-Hawes bus costs more than a direct Northallerton-Leyburn bus with fuel and staff costs. At no point has a Northallerton-Leyburn (not continuing west of Leyburn) direct bus been tried. What has been tried as full routes is as follows:
- Direct Northallerton-Hawes
- Direct Hawes-Bedale
- Direct Hawes-Leyburn
- Direct Leyburn-Bedale
- Direct Northallerton-Bedale
No direct Northallerton-Leyburn bus as a full route.

I don't know if you're being obtuse. Forget about the costs and the money.

They ran Northallerton to Leyburn (and onto Hawes) so literally the direct Northallerton to Leyburn bus that you're saying. Hardly any people used it from Northallerton west of Bedale, passenger numbers were derisory and when they had the chance, they split the route AT BEDALE - not Leyburn!

Of course I accept that there will be extra costs but this is investing. We know that investing in buses generates more money than what was put in.

No it doesn't. It is not a guarantee.

Again, I can recall in 1999, they introduced an evening service to Gunnerside on a Friday and Saturday night, I kid you not. I'm sure the same arguments were made... it was investment, it had wider social benefits, it would improve the evening economy of Richmond. It didn't because no one used it.

If a service isn't used, it's not an investment - it's wasting money. The 155 has about 4/5 passengers a journey - how many do you think they would get if the 73 was extended - at best, probably one or two.

Sending empty buses around the countryside is folly. We need to be discerning and identify the best place to invest to actually get tangible and substantial improvements.

The regional benefit of getting people from Leyburn to Northallerton and beyond, and on the flip side from Northallerton and beyond into Leyburn, is an investment into an area left behind in terms of buses. We as a society cannot be expecting people to use the bus, especially in areas like Wensleydale, when the bus service is as disjointed as it is currently and that goes for vast swathes of North Yorkshire. Direct Northallerton-Leyburn buses might not be the top of the list for changes in North Yorkshire (and likely shouldn't be) but they should be on that list.

It's an area left behind but it's also very sparsely populated. However, if you genuinely want society to use the bus, do it in areas where there are some people to use them.

I quote the Gunnerside example but I can quote more of where the same earnest and heartfelt words were used to suggest or justify wasting money on services. There's probably a boatload of better places to spend £250k on than waste it on sending a bus every hour west from Bedale.

 

[YorkRailFan]

It's an area left behind but it's also very sparsely populated. However, if you genuinely want society to use the bus, do it in areas where there are some people to use them.

I quote the Gunnerside example but I can quote more of where the same earnest and heartfelt words were used to suggest or justify wasting money on services. There's probably a boatload of better places to spend £250k on than waste it on sending a bus every hour west from Bedale

There's just under 2000 people in Leyburn, Gunnerside is 252 (2021 Census) and much further from Richmond than Leyburn is from Bedale. Not really comparable. The closest you get on the Gunnerside route in terms of population to Leyburn is Reeth, a population of less than 700 including surrounding areas. Leyburn is a town, not a village miles from civilisation.

If a service isn't used, it's not an investment - it's wasting money. The 155 has about 4/5 passengers a journey - how many do you think they would get if the 73 was extended - at best, probably one or two.

Enough people use the 155 for a Saturday service to be introduced in November 2024. If no one was using it, North Yorkshire Council wouldn't have tendered a Saturday service...

Sending empty buses around the countryside is folly. We need to be discerning and identify the best place to invest to actually get tangible and substantial improvements.

Yet that's what we do in North Yorkshire!
How many people do you think use the following:
- 59 (Thirsk-Coxwold on Mondays & Fridays)
- 60/60A (Thirsk-Great Thirkleby circular on Mondays & Fridays)
- 147 (Thirsk-Ripon on Mondays & Thursdays)
- 150 (Thirsk-Ripon on Tuesdays & Thursdays)
- 136 (Ripon-Melmerby)
- 138 (Masham-Ripon)
- 138A (Ripon-Mickley circular)
- 144 (Bedale-Masham on Tuesdays, Wednesdays & Fridays)
We are running empty buses around the County during off peak to work around school transport. Its what we do in North Yorkshire...

It's an area left behind but it's also very sparsely populated. However, if you genuinely want society to use the bus, do it in areas where there are some people to use them.

Nearly 2000 people in a town isn't exactly sparsely populated. Its far from the Gunnerside example. Leyburn isn't exactly "out there", its a 32 minute drive down the A684 from Northallerton station. Its not even within the National Park boundary.

They ran Northallerton to Leyburn (and onto Hawes) so literally the direct Northallerton to Leyburn bus that you're saying. Hardly any people used it from Northallerton west of Bedale, passenger numbers were derisory and when they had the chance, they split the route AT BEDALE - not Leyburn!

Since then, the Northallerton-Bedale frequency has been improved significantly. There has been growth in travel. We're in 2026, not 1999! Not only would a direct service help people from Leyburn access services, it would help tourists access Leyburn and Wensleydale in general. It goes both ways. Commuting by bus from Leyburn to literally anywhere before 09:30 aside from Hawes is impossible...

 

[Ballyheigue]

I'll settle this argument in one sentence. Wensleydale is full of snobs who would never be seen living on a bus and would only be seen dead on the bus if God told them straight they hadn't been green enough in life so Hell awaits. You could have a supersonic bus every 8 minutes to Northallerton from Hawes and they still wouldn't use it!

 

[Bluecardholder]

Unless the mayor wants to own everything, then if they go down the franchising route than they big boys will get most of the contracts and you are back to square one with profits going to shareholders. In fact the only losers are the SME operators who get squeezed out of the area as evidenced in Manchester and so far in Liverpool.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I'll settle this argument in one sentence. Wensleydale is full of snobs who would never be seen living on a bus and would only be seen dead on the bus if God told them straight they hadn't been green enough in life so Hell awaits. You could have a supersonic bus every 8 minutes to Northallerton from Hawes and they still wouldn't use it!

Thats a two sentence argument, not one sentence.

Unless the mayor wants to own everything, then if they go down the franchising route than they big boys will get most of the contracts and you are back to square one with profits going to shareholders. In fact the only losers are the SME operators who get squeezed out of the area as evidenced in Manchester and so far in Liverpool.

York & North Yorkshire could follow West Yorkshire's approach. So far in West Yorkshire, we know the operators for Tranche 1 which includes Stotts (SME) for a B-Lot. In West Yorkshire, the bigger depots are being purchased by the Combined Authority for the A-Lots. B and C Lots will be operated from depots owned by the operators for smaller packages. In theory, this allows operators with no depot in the area to have a fair chance at gaining some A-Lots but also allows SMEs to use their existing depots for B and C Lots, like Stotts in Kirklees. I know that the actual paperwork and bidding process is also a barrier for SMEs but its an argument done to death in threads for other regions that are undergoing franchising.

 

[Jimmi]

If we're cracking the crayons out...

• An extra bus on the 10 to restore the half hourly frequency to Cayton?
• An extra bus on the 80/89 to provide that hourly combined headway over common sections (e.g. Brompton to Northallerton where it's needed), and create a two hourly service over the non-common parts of the services; add to that, a third bus and you could have it running express from Stokesley to Middlesbrough to create that link and augment the 28A
• An extra bus on the 28 to provide infills between Scarborough and Pickering and restore that hourly headway
• Work out an extension of the Sunday 29 to have a service from/to Stokesley
• More complex - try to divert the 34 between Richmond and Catterick via Colburn and put short working every other hour just to Catterick Village to create a 30 min headway with the X26 - I'd have to see how you can achieve that?
• An extra bus on the 70 between Northallerton and Ripon - perhaps replacing the 153 and then via Baldersby down to Sharow

In a time of limited funds, any one of those would be good initiative and better than dubious schemes in the Dales.

ps I've not included anything around Harrogate, Skipton or Selby as I don't know those areas very well

One suggestion I'd have as an improvement would be to restore the link to Richmond on the 54 from Northallerton (currently terminates at Kirkby Fleetham) as the service provision between Northallerton to Richmond is dire currently, would also restore a link to Catterick Garrison for Tesco and the like from Northallerton too.

 

[YorkRailFan]

If we're looking at SMEs in York & North Yorkshire, well there aren't many left. There were several acquisitions in recent years:
- First bought York Pullman in 2024
- Go Ahead bought Procters (which includes Esk Valley Coaches along with Fourways & Compass Royston although the latter two aren't in North Yorkshire) in 2024
- Transdev purchased the routes and several vehicles from Reliance in 2025
- Go Ahead bought Morse Coaches in 2025.

We've also had others go out of business, most recently Viscount Travel in February 2026.

As for SMEs left In the area, not including Community Transport Operators we have:
- Connexions Buses
- DM Motor Services
- 21 Transport
- Hodgsons*
- Lonsdale Buses*
- Shoreline Travel
- Coastal & Country Coaches

*Operate in North Yorkshire but from a depot outside North Yorkshire

Of those remaining, DM Motor Services don't do public service work, Coastal & Country Coaches do the Whitby Open-Top Tour and I believe some school work.

Obviously its important that the remaining SMEs are taken into consideration should franchising be the chosen path, but I thought I'd put things into perspective regarding the state of SMEs in York & North Yorkshire.

 

[gc4946]

I'm more familiar with services in the southern part of North Yorkshire Council.
I'd like to see the 412 Wetherby-York running on Saturdays. It currently only operates weekdays. I believe some of the 412s interwork with the X70 between Wetherby-Harrogate. It should really be one through route between York and Harrogate.
I remember an hourly service between Wetherby and Knaresborough. Now there's only four direct buses (Harrogate Bus Co 8) each way Mondays-Saturdays between both towns.
Years ago there was a combined hourly 492/493 service between Tadcaster, Sherburn and Pontefract. Now it's every two hours, the 492 runs Wetherby-Sherburn and the 493 runs Sherburn-Pontefract.
The 405 Selby-Doncaster route was axed in 2022 but should be reinstated in full. Much depends on cross-boundary cooperation.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There's just under 2000 people in Leyburn, Gunnerside is 252 (2021 Census) and much further from Richmond than Leyburn is from Bedale. Not really comparable. The closest you get on the Gunnerside route in terms of population to Leyburn is Reeth, a population of less than 700 including surrounding areas. Leyburn is a town, not a village miles from civilisation.

Again, I think you're misrepresenting what I'm saying. That example was to illustrate the point that these lines are invariably trotted out as some justification for the most implausible initiatives. If you want another example, the 1999 RBC funding saw the 54 get a Sunday service. Yeah, link to the county town, to the hospital, link to Sunday opening shops and all those other justifications - it barely lasted a year.

Enough people use the 155 for a Saturday service to be introduced in November 2024. If no one was using it, North Yorkshire Council wouldn't have tendered a Saturday service...

It's an easy one to add and at a relatively minor cost because they're using a minibus. I didn't say no one uses the 155 - it gets 4 or 5 a journey and they decided to put a Saturday service on.

That is nothing in comparison to adding an extra bus and using more expensive buses to run - a total red herring.

Yet that's what we do in North Yorkshire!
How many people do you think use the following:

Those are minimal market day services that provide the only buses to many of those villages. They are the few remaining services of that ilk.

The current 155 isn't much better on a per journey basis and I'd support its retention. That isn't what you're suggesting - you want to take a poorly patronised service and double the service and more than double costs.

Nearly 2000 people in a town isn't exactly sparsely populated. Its far from the Gunnerside example. Leyburn isn't exactly "out there", its a 32 minute drive down the A684 from Northallerton station. Its not even within the National Park boundary.

2000 people in a town in miniscule. It is tiny.

If it were such a great catchment area, why are there no commercial buses? Why are there more buses to Richmond?

Since then, the Northallerton-Bedale frequency has been improved significantly. There has been growth in travel. We're in 2026, not 1999! Not only would a direct service help people from Leyburn access services, it would help tourists access Leyburn and Wensleydale in general. It goes both ways. Commuting by bus from Leyburn to literally anywhere before 09:30 aside from Hawes is impossible...

The frequency between Northallerton to Bedale increased to half hourly in 1996 when Proctors decided to run a service in competition with United albeit they were not directly competing as Proctors went 30 mins behind United. United eventually pulled out and Proctors then replaced their departures so it was still half hourly. It was the original Proctors journeys that were then incorporated into a revised service when the 156/157 was created so the buses on the hour were 73 to Bedale and on the half hour past Bedale to Leyburn and then Hawes.

However, in 2005 (I think) they cut the route west of Bedale so the Northallerton to Bedale service was a half hourly 73. Why do you think they cut it there and not Leyburn? Also, there hasn't been a growth in travel. Look at the BSIP submission and the DfT figures and North Yorks bus patronage is about 70% of what it was in 2010, and indeed, still lower than before Covid.

Essentially what you're saying is:

• You want a through service but running every hour between Bedale and Leyburn so double the resources on a route that has 4/5 passengers per journey currently
• You will need larger vehicles so as well doubling resources, you're more than doubling the cost
• And you want to do this even though it has been proven in recent memory that there is a very limited market

One suggestion I'd have as an improvement would be to restore the link to Richmond on the 54 from Northallerton (currently terminates at Kirkby Fleetham) as the service provision between Northallerton to Richmond is dire currently, would also restore a link to Catterick Garrison for Tesco and the like from Northallerton too.

It's an interest one. The Richmond to Northallerton service historically was via Catterick Garrison and Colburn, then to Kirkby Fleetham to Northallerton. Even in its pre-dereg form, it only ran 5 times a day and there were a couple of busy school runs to Allertonshire Schools and Richmond School meaning the whole route was operated with deckers with the route having a number of short workings between Richmond, Colburn and what is now Marne Barracks.

Interestingly, there was no service on the Great Langton and Yafforth road at all; a brief service appeared as the 40 in the early 1990s and then disappeared. By the mid 1990s, the 54 was only a couple of journeys plus some faster 54A journeys which were placement runs as Richmond depot operated the 70; again, it might have been 1999 when the 55 reappeared courtesy of RBC funding. I can't recall when the 54 was finally cut back (2011?)

However, there is surprisingly little through traffic from Richmond to Northallerton, and not much from the Garrison either. Actually, it's not that surprising because people in Richmond and Catterick go to Darlington cos there's more there. Likewise, people in Northallerton have no need to head to Richmond and they've had a Tesco in Northallerton longer than they have in Catterick.

This perhaps highlights one change that happened in the early 1990s. North Yorkshire CC began to separate schools and college workings into separate contracts so whilst you had a service that would be full of schoolchildren, it would previously allow peak hour journeys. Now what you have is a load of off peak supported services whilst the same vehicle secretly does a school run.

 

[stevieinselby]

I'm more familiar with services in the southern part of North Yorkshire Council.
I'd like to see the 412 Wetherby-York running on Saturdays. It currently only operates weekdays. I believe some of the 412s interwork with the X70 between Wetherby-Harrogate. It should really be one through route between York and Harrogate.
I remember an hourly service between Wetherby and Knaresborough. Now there's only four direct buses (Harrogate Bus Co 8) each way Mondays-Saturdays between both towns.
Years ago there was a combined hourly 492/493 service between Tadcaster, Sherburn and Pontefract. Now it's every two hours, the 492 runs Wetherby-Sherburn and the 493 runs Sherburn-Pontefract.
The 405 Selby-Doncaster route was axed in 2022 but should be reinstated in full. Much depends on cross-boundary cooperation.

Increasing the 412 to run a 2-hourly service, 6 days a week should be an obvious candidate for improvement.

The 492 has had a few different formats over the years, for much of the last 20+ years it was a bifurcated hourly service, running hourly between Tadcaster, Sherburn and (until 2016) Pontefract, but with intermediate villages only getting a bus every 2 hours as buses alternated between the two strands of the route. Since 2020, it has run every 1½ hours from Sherburn to Tadcaster and Wetherby, with all buses taking the same more circuitous route to serve almost all villages previously served by either strand on a single journey. So while some passengers have a less frequent service than back in the old days, plenty of other passengers now have a more frequent service than they used to.

Very unlikely that franchising is what will bring the 405 back. When Arriva withdrew the service, North Yorkshire put in funding to extend the 476 to Whitley, ensuring that all villages in North Yorkshire retained a service, but given that franchising ends at the county boundary, I can't see them stumping up the cash to reinstate a cross-border service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'm more familiar with services in the southern part of North Yorkshire Council.
I'd like to see the 412 Wetherby-York running on Saturdays. It currently only operates weekdays. I believe some of the 412s interwork with the X70 between Wetherby-Harrogate. It should really be one through route between York and Harrogate.
I remember an hourly service between Wetherby and Knaresborough. Now there's only four direct buses (Harrogate Bus Co 8) each way Mondays-Saturdays between both towns.
Years ago there was a combined hourly 492/493 service between Tadcaster, Sherburn and Pontefract. Now it's every two hours, the 492 runs Wetherby-Sherburn and the 493 runs Sherburn-Pontefract.
The 405 Selby-Doncaster route was axed in 2022 but should be reinstated in full. Much depends on cross-boundary cooperation.

The 412 on a Saturday would be a relatively easy one. I can actually recall a time when the 78 ran Harrogate to Wetherby with one an hour continuing to Tadcaster via Newton Kyme. However, the others stopped short but you could connect with the 79 to York (which is the modern day 412)

I think it might have been the 88 between Knaresborough and Wetherby. The 8 is a classic North Yorkshire off peak service built around a schools contract.

I do concur with @stevieinselby on the 405/476 though wasn't there some agreement in principle that the West, South and North Yorks Mayors would work together to solve the issue of cross border routes?

 

[Snex]

I might be being naive here but bar parts of East North Yorkshire (that sounds so wrong), York and Harrogate isn't the vast majority of it franchised/tendered anyway...?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I might be being naive here but bar parts of East North Yorkshire (that sounds so wrong), York and Harrogate isn't the vast majority of it franchised/tendered anyway...?

Correct - outside of York, Harrogate and Scarborough (to an extent), it’s very thin gravy and virtually everything in what was Richmondshire and Hambleton is tendered.

 

[Ballyheigue]

In order for North Yorkshire to have a successful bus network, all it's towns need proper facilities like West Yorkshire's do. It's just full of these small mickey mouse so called towns and villages with nothing in them, no proper industrial estates, no big schools, no shopping centres, in some cases not even a proper high street, here's looking at you Tadcaster! I think the powers that be in North Yorkshire should fix that first before trying to sort the skeleton bus network that's skeleton for good reason.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I'm more familiar with services in the southern part of North Yorkshire Council.
I'd like to see the 412 Wetherby-York running on Saturdays. It currently only operates weekdays. I believe some of the 412s interwork with the X70 between Wetherby-Harrogate. It should really be one through route between York and Harrogate.
I remember an hourly service between Wetherby and Knaresborough. Now there's only four direct buses (Harrogate Bus Co 8) each way Mondays-Saturdays between both towns.
Years ago there was a combined hourly 492/493 service between Tadcaster, Sherburn and Pontefract. Now it's every two hours, the 492 runs Wetherby-Sherburn and the 493 runs Sherburn-Pontefract.
The 405 Selby-Doncaster route was axed in 2022 but should be reinstated in full. Much depends on cross-boundary cooperation.

The 412 interworks during the school holidays with the X70, during the school holidays it interworks with a Boston Spa Academy run. Agree that a Saturday service would be great though. That's a problem as it stands but with franchising in West Yorkshire, the Boston Spa Academy runs should fall under Weaver Network school services so will no longer interwork with the 412. This could allow for more interworking with the X70. Whether people use a York-Harrogate bus via Wetherby is a different matter. Especially with the direct train being every half-hour. I know that ITravelYork shows the 412 as connecting with the X70 at Wetherby Bus Station on timetables at York Station.

Another minor thing, the 8 between Knaresborough & Wetherby is now a 21 Transport route operated using minibuses, not Transdev.

Essentially what you're saying is:

• You want a through service but running every hour between Bedale and Leyburn so double the resources on a route that has 4/5 passengers per journey currently
• You will need larger vehicles so as well doubling resources, you're more than doubling the cost
• And you want to do this even though it has been proven in recent memory that there is a very limited market

I will reply to your comment as this. I appreciate that the service didn't work over 20 years ago. I think it should be considered when looking at a direct service but it should not be the only factor in deciding the fate of the service. The current setup of buses in Leyburn isn't working, you can't deny it. The last bus from Northallerton to connect onto a 155 during the week is a 73 leaving at 13:05, you don't arrive in Leyburn until 14:30, nearly 90 minutes later! Something needs to change in the area, you must agree...

A service not being commercial doesn't mean its not busy. It means its not making money. You can have a full bus that isn't making money. Running buses in that area is expensive, yes, but it doesn't mean no one is using them. 2000 isn't anywhere near as miniscule as the 252 in your Gunnerside example...

Why do I think there aren't more buses from Richmond? Well, costs is a big factor. It costs a lot to provide what is often an Evora to run from Barnard Castle to provide such a service. The timetable on the 159 is a bit of a mess at the moment with the emergency closure of Middleham Bridge.

A suggestion is this, improve connections on the 155 with the 73 in Bedale. Its an easy win. Promote the connection as such as a service to Northallerton. If there is a noticeable increase in patronage on the 155, look at establishing a direct service. Its relatively low risk and even if there isn't a noticeable increase as you predict, it isn't costly to have the 155 & 73 connect in Bedale. Its the obvious thing to do here...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I will reply to your comment as this. I appreciate that the service didn't work over 20 years ago. I think it should be considered when looking at a direct service but it should not be the only factor in deciding the fate of the service. The current setup of buses in Leyburn isn't working, you can't deny it. The last bus from Northallerton to connect onto a 155 during the week is a 73 leaving at 13:05, you don't arrive in Leyburn until 14:30, nearly 90 minutes later! Something needs to change in the area, you must agree...

So you finally understand that the service has been tried before and failed - at least that finally landed!

Let's look at the other evidence. Bus patronage is not growing in North Yorkshire, despite what you said. In Richmondshire, the population has actually decreased, despite the influx of new homes into Catterick Garrison. Why is this - holiday homes! So in the absence of any positive demographic, industrial or social change, why would things be different now compared to 2005? Answer - they wouldn't.

The last bus from Northallerton to allow you to get to Leyburn at 1305... No, I don't think that needs to change. Why would I?

• It was tried before and nothing has materially changed
• There aren't the passengers and there have never been the passengers
• It simply would be a waste of £200 - £300k
• Your entire proposal seems to rest on that the 856 carries a few on a sunny summer Sunday
  • Go up in February and see how many are on it - not very many

I've said where I think things need to change, and it's Catterick Garrison, Stokesley & Great Ayton, Brompton - places where if you did spend the money, there would be appreciable and significant improvements that would yield more passengers.

A service not being commercial doesn't mean its not busy. It means its not making money. You can have a full bus that isn't making money. Running buses in that area is expensive, yes, but it doesn't mean no one is using them. 2000 isn't anywhere near as miniscule as the 252 in your Gunnerside example...

Indeed, and the X54 from Harrogate to York was a prime example of this. So yes, I get that.

Problem is... the 155 isn't busy either, and that stretch between Leyburn and Bedale never has been. So your argument about full buses simply does not apply here.

And whilst you now seem caught up on the population issue of my Gunnerside example (which wasn't the point), I might add that in Swaledale, you have basically one direction of travel. In Leyburn, you have four so your massively huge population of 2000 is split in any case. 2000 people is miniscule - it's smaller than Catterick Village for pete's sake.

Why do I think there aren't more buses from Richmond? Well, costs is a big factor. It costs a lot to provide what is often an Evora to run from Barnard Castle to provide such a service. The timetable on the 159 is a bit of a mess at the moment with the emergency closure of Middleham Bridge.

Literally the opposite to what I said. I said why are there more buses to Richmond from Leyburn? I'll put it another way - why does Richmond to Leyburn route have more journeys than the other Leyburn services? The answer is that has traditionally and still remains the most logical place for people to travel to (though perhaps sending the 159 via Catterick Garrison is a good idea).

Middleham Bridge, Barnard Castle and Evoras have nothing to with this - I don't know why you mention this.

A suggestion is this, improve connections on the 155 with the 73 in Bedale. Its an easy win. Promote the connection as such as a service to Northallerton. If there is a noticeable increase in patronage on the 155, look at establishing a direct service. Its relatively low risk and even if there isn't a noticeable increase as you predict, it isn't costly to have the 155 & 73 connect in Bedale. Its the obvious thing to do here...

Yeah, you could improve the connections in Bedale - departures leaving at **35 the hour - yeah, if you want. Means you'll lose one of the five journeys but easy to do.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Middleham Bridge, Barnard Castle and Evoras have nothing to with this - I don't know why you mention this

Cost. Running a bus as big as an Evora empty at the start/end of the day is costly. As for what Richmond has to offer, Richmond and Catterick Garrison has everything Northallerton does apart from a train station. Connections onto the X26/X27 from the 159 in Richmond aren't great. Either you improve connections between the 155 & 73 in Bedale or between the 159 & X26/X27 in Richmond to make travelling from Leyburn to a train station easier. Its all about better integration between bus services and onto other modes of transport like rail. That's the point I'm trying to get at.

Yeah, you could improve the connections in Bedale - departures leaving at **35 the hour - yeah, if you want. Means you'll lose one of the five journeys but easy to do.

So what's your solution? Leave the situation as is which is inadequate? I have provided a road map for improvements with the trial of connections in Bedale is low cost and low risk. You have offered no solution and seem happy with the current provision which lacks integration...

Let's look at the other evidence. Bus patronage is not growing in North Yorkshire, despite what you said. In Richmondshire, the population has actually decreased, despite the influx of new homes into Catterick Garrison. Why is this - holiday homes! So in the absence of any positive demographic, industrial or social change, why would things be different now compared to 2005? Answer - they wouldn't

Looking at the 2001 & 2021 Census, the population of Leyburn has remained relatively stable just under 2000, not decreasing.

The last bus from Northallerton to allow you to get to Leyburn at 1305... No, I don't think that needs to change. Why would I?

• It was tried before and nothing has materially changed
• There aren't the passengers and there have never been the passengers
• It simply would be a waste of £200 - £300k
• Your entire proposal seems to rest on that the 856 carries a few on a sunny summer Sunday
  • Go up in February and see how many are on it - not very many

I do go up to Wensleydale during the Winter, I catch the 856 as the 73/155/156 connection on a Monday-Saturday is a pain. The 856 remains relatively popular because it is the easiest way to travel around the area. There are people who use it during the winter, otherwise it wouldn't run during the winter!

As for a last bus, trialling a later bus on the 155 after the afternoon school journey could be a possibility. Yes, there would be increased costs to do so, of course there would be. Trial connections with the 73 in Bedale first and then look at later buses on the 155. That's a plan for improvements. There's no loss in connecting the 155 & 73 and it has the potential for improvements in the future should they be justified.

And whilst you now seem caught up on the population issue of my Gunnerside example (which wasn't the point), I might add that in Swaledale, you have basically one direction of travel. In Leyburn, you have four so your massively huge population of 2000 is split in any case. 2000 people is miniscule - it's smaller than Catterick Village for pete's sake.

I would support a better bus service to Catterick Village. Northallerton is Leyburn's nearest train station, of course people will travel to Northallerton from Leyburn. Not on the 155 though as its slow and infrequent with poor connections in Bedale. Evidently not in the past either but to start, having the 155 & 73 connect in Bedale is an incredibly easy win with pretty much no risks and tests the waters for future improvements.

I've said where I think things need to change, and it's Catterick Garrison, Stokesley & Great Ayton, Brompton - places where if you did spend the money, there would be appreciable and significant improvements that would yield more passengers.

I've said this before, these places would be higher up on the list than Leyburn but it doesn't mean Leyburn shouldn't be on that list as you seem to think...

However, there is surprisingly little through traffic from Richmond to Northallerton, and not much from the Garrison either. Actually, it's not that surprising because people in Richmond and Catterick go to Darlington cos there's more there. Likewise, people in Northallerton have no need to head to Richmond and they've had a Tesco in Northallerton longer than they have in Catterick.

On paper it looks like a great potential service. The bus service is only 3x a day, perhaps that reflects the demand or perhaps it reflects the operational circumstances of interworking with a school service and the 54. It likely sits somewhere in between. As you say, there's more in Darlington for those in Richmond and Catterick Garrison, and they have a much better bus service to reflect that.

One suggestion I'd have as an improvement would be to restore the link to Richmond on the 54 from Northallerton (currently terminates at Kirkby Fleetham) as the service provision between Northallerton to Richmond is dire currently, would also restore a link to Catterick Garrison for Tesco and the like from Northallerton too.

You could theoretically alternate between the 54 & 55 for Richmond-Northallerton. This would require an extra vehicle with the current bus used on the service working a school service. Kirkby Fleetham currently has buses to Northallerton which has everything that Richmond and Catterick Garrison has to offer plus a train station. Would Kirkby Fleetham benefit from a service to Richmond & Catterick Garrison though?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I going to preface my response and without doxxing myself...

I was born, raised and educated, and my knowledge of buses was based this very corner of North Yorkshire. My family are still there - some of them have even worked in that Tesco in Catterick Garrison. My parents ashes are scattered above Preston under Scar. I know the area really well... I know the history of those bus services and most importantly, I know where people travel from and to, and why, and how it has changed (or hasn't) over the years. You - less so...

Cost. Running a bus as big as an Evora empty at the start/end of the day is costly. As for what Richmond has to offer, Richmond and Catterick Garrison has everything Northallerton does apart from a train station. Connections onto the X26/X27 from the 159 in Richmond aren't great. Either you improve connections between the 155 & 73 in Bedale or between the 159 & X26/X27 in Richmond to make travelling from Leyburn to a train station easier. Its all about better integration between bus services and onto other modes of transport like rail. That's the point I'm trying to get at.

The 159 is a much busier service than the 155 and is attached to school workings that are also busier. The 159 actually carries some decent loads, especially on Ripon market days. The 155 simply doesn't and never has done

Connections from the 159 aren't great because, and this might be hard to believe, most people travelling from Leyburn aren't going to Darlington. They're going to Richmond. For the few passengers who do want to travel between the two, it was less of an issue when the service was every 20 mins (and before that, every 15 mins)

Also, I don't know where you get this belief that there's some market for people needing to go from Leyburn to get a train. I suggest you travel on the X26/X27 and see how many people get on/off at Darlington rail station - it is very few (except for a Friday afternoon and a Sunday night) even with a direct service and through ticketing.

So what's your solution? Leave the situation as is which is inadequate? I have provided a road map for improvements with the trial of connections in Bedale is low cost and low risk. You have offered no solution and seem happy with the current provision which lacks integration...

You seem to think that the 155 is inadequate.

Put bluntly, a better service was provided for several years and no b*gger used it. The 155 meets what little traffic there was.

You can put on as many buses as you like between Bedale and Leyburn but the number of passengers would barely change - it simply isn't the money. When the service actually existed, next to no-one used it, which is why it was reduced even before austerity.

Change the 155 times by all means to connect with the 73 - fine. Your original proposal was an extra £250k p.a. - that isn't low cost.

I do go up to Wensleydale during the Winter, I catch the 856 as the 73/155/156 connection on a Monday-Saturday is a pain. The 856 remains relatively popular because it is the easiest way to travel around the area. There are people who use it during the winter, otherwise it wouldn't run during the winter!

As for a last bus, trialling a later bus on the 155 after the afternoon school journey could be a possibility. Yes, there would be increased costs to do so, of course there would be. Trial connections with the 73 in Bedale first and then look at later buses on the 155. That's a plan for improvements. There's no loss in connecting the 155 & 73 and it has the potential for improvements in the future should they be justified.

There are people but it is much reduced in winter.

Looking at the 2001 & 2021 Census, the population of Leyburn has remained relatively stable just under 2000, not decreasing.

Again - read what I said. I said Richmondshire so that encompasses not just Leyburn but the rest of the area so places on the 155 route like Hunton and Spennithorne and Patrick Brompton. However, as you say Leyburn has remained relatively stable... so why would there be more people wanting to travel now than there were in 2001.

Surely any positive changes in demographics and patronage would also have led to issues with capacity on LWB routes... they haven't though, have they?

I've said this before, these places would be higher up on the list than Leyburn but it doesn't mean Leyburn shouldn't be on that list as you seem to think...

Leyburn is tiny. In terms of population, it is less than a third of the size of places like Pickering, and a fifth the size of Richmond. For crying out loud, it is smaller than Catterick Village.

There are literally dozens of places in North Yorkshire that need better bus services, and much more deserving cases. If we had £40m to spend, fair enough. However and getting back on topic, the idea that there's a load of funding to be released from central government, a reprioritisation of existing spend, or some utopia of franchising and cross subsidy is simply unrealistic.

On paper it looks like a great potential service. The bus service is only 3x a day, perhaps that reflects the demand or perhaps it reflects the operational circumstances of interworking with a school service and the 54. It likely sits somewhere in between. As you say, there's more in Darlington for those in Richmond and Catterick Garrison, and they have a much better bus service to reflect that.

You could theoretically alternate between the 54 & 55 for Richmond-Northallerton. This would require an extra vehicle with the current bus used on the service working a school service. Kirkby Fleetham currently has buses to Northallerton which has everything that Richmond and Catterick Garrison has to offer plus a train station. Would Kirkby Fleetham benefit from a service to Richmond & Catterick Garrison though?

And that's the point - on paper. The reality is that the old 54 (and before that 34) were two separate services/passenger flows and the numbers travelling south of Catterick were pretty low. There used to be the odd passenger that would travel from Catterick or Colburn but it was minimal.

What little Richmond to Northallerton traffic is absorbed by the 55.

Why would Kirkby Fleetham, Great Langton or Scruton inhabitants want to travel to Catterick Garrison or Richmond? There's nothing there that they can't access in Northallerton.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Why would Kirkby Fleetham, Great Langton or Scruton inhabitants want to travel to Catterick Garrison or Richmond? There's nothing there that they can't access in Northallerton.

I literally said that if you read my comment:

Kirkby Fleetham currently has buses to Northallerton which has everything that Richmond and Catterick Garrison has to offer plus a train station.

There are people but it is much reduced in winter.

Enough for DalesBus to continue to fund the service. If there weren't, it wouldn't run!

The 159 is a much busier service than the 155 and is attached to school workings that are also busier. The 159 actually carries some decent loads, especially on Ripon market days. The 155 simply doesn't and never has done

Connections from the 159 aren't great because, and this might be hard to believe, most people travelling from Leyburn aren't going to Darlington. They're going to Richmond. For the few passengers who do want to travel between the two, it was less of an issue when the service was every 20 mins (and before that, every 15 mins)

Also, I don't know where you get this belief that there's some market for people needing to go from Leyburn to get a train. I suggest you travel on the X26/X27 and see how many people get on/off at Darlington rail station - it is very few (except for a Friday afternoon and a Sunday night) even with a direct service and through ticketing.

I last used the X26/X27 on a Tuesday evening, roughly 5 people alighted at Darlington station (myself included) to get a train. I'm not denying the 159 is busier, it has a better frequency to show for that. My point is about increasing integration in the area. I have demonstrated a plan to do so with a low cost, low risk start of organising the 155 & 73 to connect in Bedale. You have proposed nothing and seem to be happy with the status quo because of what happened in 1999. Having the 155 & 73 is the easier than anything you have proposed in North Yorkshire, it costs next to nothing, improves integration and allows a possibility for further improvements should they be deemed feasible. You have no response to it because there is nothing to say against it, it's undeniably low-hanging fruit to have the 155 & 73 connect in Bedale.

Leyburn is tiny. In terms of population, it is less than a third of the size of places like Pickering, and a fifth the size of Richmond. For crying out loud, it is smaller than Catterick Village.

There are literally dozens of places in North Yorkshire that need better bus services, and much more deserving cases. If we had £40m to spend, fair enough. However and getting back on topic, the idea that there's a load of funding to be released from central government, a reprioritisation of existing spend, or some utopia of franchising and cross subsidy is simply unrealistic.

Which is why I keep saying Leyburn is much lower down the list of things to change but is still on there. Having the 155 & 73 connect in Bedale costs nothing. It creates better journeys between Leyburn & the County Town and allows for improvements in the future should it be deemed feasible.

You seem to think that the 155 is inadequate.

Put bluntly, a better service was provided for several years and no b*gger used it. The 155 meets what little traffic there was.

You can put on as many buses as you like between Bedale and Leyburn but the number of passengers would barely change - it simply isn't the money. When the service actually existed, next to no-one used it, which is why it was reduced even before austerity.

Change the 155 times by all means to connect with the 73 - fine. Your original proposal was an extra £250k p.a. - that isn't low cost.

The 155 meets traffic between Bedale & Leyburn currently. Having it connect with the 73 allows any through journeys to become easier and allows any sort of improvements in the future. You can't deny it. It costs next to nothing and is low hanging fruit for better integration - something that could improve with franchising in the areas (one of the few meaningful changes franchising brings in North Yorkshire).

I'm tired of this, I have provided a plan that costs next to nothing, improves journeys and opens up the possibility for improved services in the future. It doesn't need franchising, just joined-up thinking from the council. You have provided nothing to improve integration in an area that needs it. We can round and round in circles and continue to disagree. I have nothing else to say on the matter.

 

[tbtc]

>> "Connections onto the X26/X27 from the 159 in Richmond aren't great"

Connections from the 159 aren't great because, and this might be hard to believe, most people travelling from Leyburn aren't going to Darlington. They're going to Richmond. For the few passengers who do want to travel between the two, it was less of an issue when the service was every 20 mins (and before that, every 15 mins)

What happened to the Catterick - Richmond - Darlington corridor? It was every fifteen minutes last time I looked (many years ago, admittedly), so I was surprised to see it's down to just half hourly

I generally expect a slight reduction to many services over the past decade, andi get the general reasons, but it's there anything specific behind this (was the fifteen minute frequency only a short term thing or reaction to competition, but I've had it stuck in my head as "the norm"? Or was it Arriva's Death Of A Thousand Cuts? Fewer soldiers stationed at Catterick?)

As for what Richmond has to offer, Richmond and Catterick Garrison has everything Northallerton does apart from a train station

Kirkby Fleetham currently has buses to Northallerton which has everything that Richmond and Catterick Garrison has to offer plus a train station. Would Kirkby Fleetham benefit from a service to Richmond & Catterick Garrison though?

I think you've (deliberately/ accidentally) hit the nail on the head here

This territory has a lot of towns that are broadly similar in size. Other than a train station for long distance journeys, Northallerton is fairly similar to Richmond/ Catterick (and to Thirsk, and to Ripon and to...)

So, despite people's aspirations on here, there's not huge demand to get from your scenic market town to a different scenic market town

Add that to the problem that most of these places are too small to sustain any commercial suburban routes (since anyone able bodied is unlikely to wait for an infrequent bus and then pay two or three quid for a short journey when they could probably walk into town in ten minutes)

So we're left with patchwork of towns where there will certainly be some demand to leave/visit, but few corridors where sufficient people want to do so in enough numbers to sustain much of a bus service

Hard to see much fertile ground for additional buses, even if the Authorities are focused on passengers (and not a politically motivated "everywhere should have a link to everywhere" fudge)

 

[stevieinselby]

What happened to the Catterick - Richmond - Darlington corridor? It was every fifteen minutes last time I looked (many years ago, admittedly), so I was surprised to see it's down to just half hourly

I generally expect a slight reduction to many services over the past decade, andi get the general reasons, but it's there anything specific behind this (was the fifteen minute frequency only a short term thing or reaction to competition, but I've had it stuck in my head as "the norm"? Or was it Arriva's Death Of A Thousand Cuts? Fewer soldiers stationed at Catterick?)

The earliest timetable I have to hand is 2004 when it was every 20 minutes - increased to every 15 minutes in 2008 - reduced back to every 20 minutes in 2013 - temporarily reduced to every 30 minutes during Covid and then made permanent in 2021.

Possibly worth noting that up to 2014, the route was mostly worked by Metroriders and then Solos - but from the end of 2014, it has mostly been worked by full-sized saloons and more recently some double-deckers as well. So the reduction in frequency has been offset by larger buses to maintain capacity. For an interurban route, that isn't necessarily a bad compromise, not sure how much fun a Solo would be on a route like that!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What happened to the Catterick - Richmond - Darlington corridor? It was every fifteen minutes last time I looked (many years ago, admittedly), so I was surprised to see it's down to just half hourly

I generally expect a slight reduction to many services over the past decade, andi get the general reasons, but it's there anything specific behind this (was the fifteen minute frequency only a short term thing or reaction to competition, but I've had it stuck in my head as "the norm"? Or was it Arriva's Death Of A Thousand Cuts? Fewer soldiers stationed at Catterick?)

I can't remember the exact dates (so please bear with) but here goes.

It was historically every 30 mins for much of the 1980s and 1990s from Kemmel to Darlington. Deckers were used for most journeys mainly to cope with college and schools traffic until those were separated out into dedicated contracts and new Optare Vectas arrived in 1993. Colburn was served instead by other routes. There was an outbreak of competition in 1994 with the second Darlington bus war where you had 6 buses per hour but that quickly went when DTC went bust and Stagecoach and United had a peace treaty!! That's been the only competition.

It was much later in Arriva days (c.2004?) when they converted the routes to Metroriders and then Solos and amalgamated the Colburn and Catterick routes so what you had was the X26/X27 being half hourly so a 15 min service combined.

What they then did, and I think this was under Nick Knox's tenure as commercial manager but can't recall when, was to reduce it to every 20 mins by axing one of the X27 boards. That meant one bus every hour to Kemmel, and two to Colburn on a 20/40 split. In 2022 (?) and post-Covid, a mix of depressed passenger numbers, staff shortages and the DB Arriva malaise (as you mention), saw it reduced to the current pattern.

TBH, it's a shocking service now with knackered Pulsars and Streetlites, plus the odd decker. Reliability is appalling - even today, you can see the delays from Richmond to Darlington today... 0856 ran 0902, 0925 ran 0932, 0956 ran 1003, 1029 ran 1037, 1059 ran 1111, 1129 ran 1137 and this is typical.

It really is one of those services that has declined over the last 10 years; the optimism of it getting the Max treatment has given way to it being just another Darlington depot route and random tat is put on it. Emblematic of the Arriva issues.

EDIT: seen @stevieinselby comments so he's corrected me on the years. I had forgotten the 20 to 15 stage initially but it does ring a bell. In truth, the 15 min service was overkill but it screams out as a route where some BSIP funds would do wonders, as well as engaging with a relatively rejuvenated Arriva.

 

[YorkRailFan]

The earliest timetable I have to hand is 2004 when it was every 20 minutes - increased to every 15 minutes in 2008 - reduced back to every 20 minutes in 2013 - temporarily reduced to every 30 minutes during Covid and then made permanent in 2021.

Possibly worth noting that up to 2014, the route was mostly worked by Metroriders and then Solos - but from the end of 2014, it has mostly been worked by full-sized saloons and more recently some double-deckers as well. So the reduction in frequency has been offset by larger buses to maintain capacity. For an interurban route, that isn't necessarily a bad compromise, not sure how much fun a Solo would be on a route like that!

The Sunday timetable is also quite good. Hourly with the last bus leaving Darlington at 21:30. For an inter-urban route in North Yorkshire, that's a real rarity. Just needs some better buses on it which are hopefully coming in the next few years with the investment in new vehicles announced by Arriva earlier this year.