Avanti West Coast - Renationalisation on March 7th 2027

[Sorcerer]

But it isn't is it?

Derby, Nottingham, Leicester, Banbury, Leamington, Kidderminster, Barrow, Bolton etc etc say hello.

And I think Scotrail (and the Scottish government in particular) might object to "Scottish" appearing in the name of a train operator that serves only a handful of Scottish stations.

I mean arguably it is. It might not have the same extensive area of operation but both Avanti and LNR do still serve the most major parts of the London Midland region. It wouldn't be the same LMS since it would mostly be just WCML services out of Euston but it wouldn't be inaccurate to call it LMS Railway. Certainly no more inaccurate than calling it something like One West Coast even though the line only touches the west coast for about half a mile between Lancaster and Carnforth.

 

[childwallblues]

Little will improve until the infrastructure is updated.

 

[Andyh82]

And based on other operators which have transferred to GBR, it will be a laughing stock on the 8th March when a Network Rail related signal failure or another event causing large delays/cancellations. Just look at Northern for a shining example of how great publicly owned operators are

But don't worry they will follow the example set by LNER to getting rid of off-peak tickets and moving towards an airline style model, where it will be advances for most (or if you want flexibility paying the eye watering expensive anytime fare), That will solve overcrowding as removal of the pesky off-peak tickets would allow the price cap for advances to get removed on busy weekends

The government relies on people thinking that the private operators have complete control over everything they do, the fares, the trains, the services, just in the same way as someone like Tesco has control over what goes on it its stores. If the trains are too short it’s because the private operator won’t buy anymore trains as they’d prefer to keep the profits.

The train operator also always gets the blame when there is infrastructure problems, how many Avanti cancellations were not their fault?

Just watched the report on the ITV News and a person they voxpopped in Manchester is expecting fares to come down now they don’t have to be used to ‘line the pockets of the rich’. I expect they will be disappointed

 

[jon0844]

The DfT(O) is penny pinching all over and they've begun to cut back services during things like school holidays. Short forming trains and cutting services is quite possible, and even with a fares freeze you can do things like get rid of super off peak tickets, or (re)introduce peak rate tickets in the evening etc.

 

[Kite159]

..

The government relies on people thinking that the private operators have complete control over everything they do, the fares, the trains, the services, just in the same way as someone like Tesco has control over what goes on it its stores. If the trains are too short it’s because the private operator won’t buy anymore trains as they’d prefer to keep the profits.

The train operator also always gets the blame when there is infrastructure problems, how many Avanti cancellations were not their fault?

Just watched the report on the ITV News and a person they voxpopped in Manchester is expecting fares to come down now they don’t have to be used to ‘line the pockets of the rich’. I expect they will be disappointed

It's all the fault of those evil private companies why my train to Birmingham only has 5 coaches and is busy (due to the previous Birmingham train getting cancelled due to signalling issues etc)

@jon0844 they already got rid of the super off-peak tickets (which were valid on Avanti) a couple of years ago [although those tickets were very heavily restricted from memory]. I do wonder what effect the fares freeze is having on the availability of the lower priced tier advance tickets.

Faster and more reliable services through changes to existing timetables, focusing on routes going in and out of Manchester.

All on board the Burnham Express! Hourly non-stop London to Stockport

 

[Rail2002]

Rail magazine are saying that Avanti West Coast will be merged with London Northwestern to form a single business unit called "One West Coast". It is mentioned in this article: https://www.railmagazine.com/news/e...ontinues-as-chiltern-railways-is-nationalised
You need to subscribe to the RAIL newsletter (which is free) to read the article. This is a quote from the article: "The ongoing dispute over East West Rail (EWR) operations continued as Chiltern Railways became the latest nationalised operator.

The formerly Arriva-run operator was the tenth to join Department for Transport Operator Ltd (DFTO) on September 20, forming an integrated West Midlands business unit led by Managing Director Denise Wetton.

This currently encompass West Midlands Railway and London Northwestern Railway routes, although the latter will join Avanti West Coast in 2027 in a business unit due to be called One West Coast. Avanti is expected to be the next nationalised operator after Great Western Railway joins DFTO in December".

So a merger between two parts of the railway will create a new split between WMR and LNwR.

The fare structures are different between the two though. LNWR is a lower cost, no frills operator whereas Avanti West Coast is a more traditional inter-city operator. I wonder what may happen with LNWR only tickets that tend to be priced differently to other open singles and returns.

 

[6Gman]

I mean arguably it is. It might not have the same extensive area of operation but both Avanti and LNR do still serve the most major parts of the London Midland region. It wouldn't be the same LMS since it would mostly be just WCML services out of Euston but it wouldn't be inaccurate to call it LMS Railway. Certainly no more inaccurate than calling it something like One West Coast even though the line only touches the west coast for about half a mile between Lancaster and Carnforth.

We shall simply have to disagree then.

In passing, I note that Avanti/LNW appear to serve more stations in Wales than in Scotland.

Perhaps it should be LMW?

 

[GordonT]

Just watched the report on the ITV News and a person they voxpopped in Manchester is expecting fares to come down now they don’t have to be used to ‘line the pockets of the rich’. I expect they will be disappointed

Could be something of a case study in "be careful what you wish for".

 

[TheSmiths82]

In my experience Avanti is unreliable for two reasons especially into Manchester. The first is the infrastructure the Manchester branch of the WCML is at full capacity and if anything goes wrong there is usually severe delays due to all the misplaced trains. The other issue is staffing which Avanti does have control over. Too many weekend trains are cancelled due to a lack of staff or other random none infrastructure reasons.

I sadly don't think prices will come down in the short term but I think reliability will improve.

 

[Jimini]

I put that down more to a societal attitude problem.

100% agree with this. In Switzerland, leaving rubbish behind for someone else to clear up is a huge no-no (as it should be IMO), but over here in good ol' Blighty, passengers will leave their crap everywhere and it's down to the station cleaners to sort.

 

[Harpo]

I think reliability will improve.

I can’t see how an operation micromanaged by DfT via an intermediary will improve when micromanaged by DfT directly.

 

[Goldfish62]

Just watched the report on the ITV News and a person they voxpopped in Manchester is expecting fares to come down now they don’t have to be used to ‘line the pockets of the rich’. I expect they will be disappointed

It really is quite depressing how naive some people are.

 

[Carlisle]

100% agree with this. In Switzerland, leaving rubbish behind for someone else to clear up is a huge no-no (as it should be IMO), but over here in good ol' Blighty, passengers will leave their crap everywhere and it's down to the station cleaners to sort.

True plus the Swiss trains I travelled on recently had mini bins accessible from most seats which probably helps too.

 

[nlogax]

It really is quite depressing how naive some people are.

I wouldn't ever take anything of merit from voxpops other than maybe news organisations should stop using voxpops.

 

[sh24]

I wouldn't ever take anything of merit from voxpops other than maybe news organisations should stop using voxpops.

So very true. I'm not interested in Brian or Brendas' view point, could we please hear from an expert who gives meaningful insight?

 

[Harpo]

So very true. I'm not interested in Brian or Brendas' view point, could we please hear from an expert who gives meaningful insight?

….and hope it isn’t Simon Calder.

 

[Bletchleyite]

….and hope it isn’t Simon Calder.

Well, quite, all he seems to care about in this regard is cheap headline fares. I suppose he is "the man who pays his way" but one day he might have to do so at less than three months' notice!

 

[sh24]

….and hope it isn’t Simon Calder.

fair point

 

[XCTurbostar]

One West Coast is the project name not the operator name.. the structure will be amalgamated but the operators will stay separated.

 

[Andrew888]

True plus the Swiss trains I travelled on recently had mini bins accessible from most seats which probably helps too.

We have those on the 158s on the Cambrian, but people still leave their crap everywhere, particularly on the tables. Plus crumbs all over the seats. Does make it easier to tidy up after them when you get on though.

 

[mmh]

So very true. I'm not interested in Brian or Brendas' view point, could we please hear from an expert who gives meaningful insight?

An expert is just a voxpop with an appearance fee.

 

[Mikey C]

The current split between Avanti and LNWR gives genuine choice and is akin to having separate intercity and slower interregio services. It makes sense for people on shorter journeys to pile on a 350/730, rather than cram onto a 390.

Lots of countries have a more expensive "Intercity" service, and cheaper and slower "regional" service, but I don't know how this will work under GBR.

 

[Merle Haggard]

….and hope it isn’t Simon Calder.

Whenever I've heard him on the radio (and, mercifully for me, lately he doesn't seem to get invited on) he always sounds to me VERY ANGRY! about EVERYTHING! But possibly it's just his natural tone of voice.

And not well-informed about railways, but that doesn't hold him back from expressing his opinions.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The current split between Avanti and LNWR gives genuine choice and is akin to having separate intercity and slower interregio services. It makes sense for people on shorter journeys to pile on a 350/730, rather than cram onto a 390.

Lots of countries have a more expensive "Intercity" service, and cheaper and slower "regional" service, but I don't know how this will work under GBR.

The Coventry-Birmingham-Wolverhampton corridor will still have 4 operators: the new WC and WM, plus XC, and TfW north of International).

 

[CHAPS2034]

So very true. I'm not interested in Brian or Brendas' view point, could we please hear from an expert who gives meaningful insight?

Expert: Ex is an out of date person, and spurt is a drip under pressure.

 

[MrJeeves]

That is why we will bring Avanti into public ownership at the earliest opportunity, in March next year.

Am I the only one who doesn't understand how this is the "earliest opportunity", when the core expiry is in October, and there's a 3 month notice period?

Surely the earliest opportunity would be today plus 3 months, or October plus 3 months, which would be in January?

Do they mean the earliest opportunity which happens to be convenient for DfT(O)?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

In my experience Avanti is unreliable for two reasons especially into Manchester. The first is the infrastructure the Manchester branch of the WCML is at full capacity and if anything goes wrong there is usually severe delays due to all the misplaced trains. The other issue is staffing which Avanti does have control over. Too many weekend trains are cancelled due to a lack of staff or other random none infrastructure reasons.

The one thing nationalised Avanti has on its side is No.10 of the North so it should be able to access the resources it needs to improve performance and reliability. Alexander can only achieve this by robbing other routes/operators as the budget is not only fixed but declining. At least Manchester and NW England may end up with a better service.

 

[XCTurbostar]

The one thing nationalised Avanti has on its side is No.10 of the North so it should be able to access the resources it needs to improve performance and reliability. Alexander can only achieve this by robbing other routes/operators as the budget is not only fixed but declining. At least Manchester and NW England may end up with a better service.

This makes absolutely no difference to its operation.

 

[Jim the Jim]

I have always thought that the fast/slow trains (currently Avanti/LNR) on the WCML are perhaps the strongest case nationwide for keeping differently branded services, and brand-specific tickets. Surprised then that they are doing a reorganisation when this hasn't happened elsewhere.

(Though perhaps it might be easier overall if both brands are actually under a single company? For controlling the balance of different ticket prices, arranging ticket acceptance when things go wrong etc.)

 

[CapabilityB]

I've created a speculative thread on pay harmonisation here:

Will GBR pay all drivers/guards the same in the end or will a hierarchy of service types develop again?

Because if you are doing the same job for the same company than it is a reasonable expectation to get paid the same. The equal pay Law enshrines this right between men and women but not for same job different department type stuff. Exceptions such as experience,shift allowance and location...

www.railforums.co.uk

It's probably worth doing a similar GBR thread for management grades. I've already heard about TOC management staff on significantly less than what the people they're working with in NR are on.

And then you add on the very significant bonus NR staff have just received which TOC / DFTO / DFT don't get, and you can imagine how uncomfortable things are going to get.