Short intercity trains should be hurled into the sun

[dk1]

The 745s interior doors have been permanently open every time I’ve travelled on them. And I’ve cleared the class, so often enough.

They used to be but over the last couple of years the software has been changed.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They used to be but over the last couple of years the software has been changed.

That's definitely good, stops the trains having a 700 vibe, hahaha.

 

[dk1]

That's definitely good, stops the trains having a 700 vibe, hahaha.

Don’t tell the catering guys that

 

[NCT]

It wasn't really a modular design, the equipment was designed for a 26m vehicle, and optimised for its design length.

Why Hitachi ever agreed to bodge a shorter version is beyond me (presumably money talks, along with potential future orders, rather than engineering led common sense).

As any engineer will tell you making something slightly bigger is fairly easy, but trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot doesn't really work. In the end something like 70% had to be changed or repositioned. It ended up a virtually new design that tried to squeeze in too much (and of course anything squeezed in is a pain to maintain and repair).

The 810 has ended up the worst inter-city type train for 20 years, it's an unreliable piece of junk, especially when compared to reliability of say 5car class 444 (ok that is a regional or outer suburban train). But it a good yardstick based on journey time duration and number of times they couple and uncouple each day.

This still doesn't explain why things like software is a function of carriage length. The 222 was an 80% new train from the Voyagers and it wasn't a basket case.

So Hitachi didn't have a modular offer. So it was entirely rational for a customer to go to the market for a better product.

My memory was fuzzy, but my recollection was a tender went to the market. I seem to remember at one point the expectation was the trains would be Intercity Aventras.

 

[Clansman]

If the Treasury can find appropriate financing and if anybody in power had the political will to sort the issue, as well as the DfT having any sense left - they'd go all in on procuring gauge maximising 18m carriage length 14 car units for all intercity services to the proper IC interior spec akin to Europe. Reconfigure the IETs and integrate them into all or as many inter-urban routes as possible, dynamic price the hell out of the capacity in the off-peaks... and be done with it all for a generation.

But the usual NIMBYism of death-by-consultancy to menial infrastructure upgrades, the fear of trains carrying fresh air without pricing reform, and the lack of will to increase short term cost for long term efficient gains - is what stops such forward thining attitudes and confines us to perpetual misery.

European countries have this relatively spot on.

 

[NCT]

18m carriages would only be gauge maximising if each carriage has traditional bogies with very small end throws and centre throws (like the S stock), but that'd be far too many bogies increasing the train's mass and air resistance. Put them on Jacob bogies (like the Class 745) and the gauge advantage evaporates.

 

[Transilien]

One could almost argue, given how unsuitable 5 car trains are for LNER, for a larger order of 897s and sending the 5s off elsewhere, e.g. XC or TPE (and if the latter, cascading 185s to Northern to replace some 15x). Though there is the complexity of the IET contract to worry about there, sadly.

Though to be fair the fares "trial" does make pricing people off 5s a bit easier.

One could even argue for sending 9s from LNER to GWR and cascading all the 5s to XC, and backfilling with even more 897s. The capacity uplift of even a 5 car 80x from a 4-5 car Voyager is significant. ScotRail could potentially also be interested instead of the broken old tat they're actually getting from EMR.

In that case, where do the voyagers go?

 

[Snow1964]

In that case, where do the voyagers go?

The best solution for the approx remains 15-20 years of life would be to halve the 4car fleet. Reform them as 6car sets, scrap the end cars (keeping parts as spares), use the bogies from the end cars as replacements for the much heavier tilt (but tilt disabled) bogies on some 221s.

Never going to be a perfect train, but as it is exists and is build costs are long ago sunk, might as well be used.

There are number of routes (with very little electrification) where they could be used freeing up bi-modes to replace voyagers on part electrified routes, routes like Cardiff - Plymouth/Penzance, or Liverpool - Sheffield - Cleethorpes etc.

Really should be thinking of national cascade to maximise the electrification, and getting the pure diesel (rather than bimodes) where routes are not half electrified

 

[py_megapixel]

Liverpool - Sheffield - Cleethorpes

The existing 6-car 185s on this route (higher capacity than 6 Voyager cars) are already busy a lot of the time, and the end doors would probably cause dwell time problems in Castlefield.

 

[dk1]

The existing 6-car 185s on this route (higher capacity than 6 Voyager cars) are already busy a lot of the time, and the end doors would probably cause dwell time problems in Castlefield.

Yes this has improved the dwell times for the 170 formed Norwich-Liverpool services too along that stretch.

 

[The exile]

In that case, where do the voyagers go?

By the time anything actually got delivered in sufficient quantities to cover teething issues, crew training and absorbing of existing growth, it would be academic…

 

[quantinghome]

In that case, where do the voyagers go?

To the nice special farm that's just a little too far to drive to.

 

[cle]

In that case, where do the voyagers go?

There are a few options:

- TfW for Marches route to Manchester and Cardiff/Holyhead - I think is a good one. Liverpool-Llandudno maybe even, if interworking in Wales, and ultimately Liverpool-Cardiff too
- Scotland to replace the HST 7s
- EWR once the 196s are full (not forever but short term patch)

 

[Bletchleyite]

222s are already going to ScotRail for the I7Cs.

5 and 6 car Voyagers would be a good fit for TfW though, and would provide extra capacity on places like the Coast at busy times as well as getting rid of the ageing Mk4s.

 

[43096]

There are a few options:

- TfW for Marches route to Manchester and Cardiff/Holyhead - I think is a good one. Liverpool-Llandudno maybe even, if interworking in Wales, and ultimately Liverpool-Cardiff too

The Mark 4 sets are higher capacity than the Voyagers. Probably not an option.

- Scotland to replace the HST 7s

Already being replaced by 222s. Not an option.

- EWR once the 196s are full (not forever but short term patch)

Given EWR is not even open yet then why would they already need a replacement for the 196s? Not an option.

Which takes us back to the starting question.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Mark 4 sets are higher capacity than the Voyagers. Probably not an option.

You could reform them into 6 car sets and add ASDO. Or you could scrap them, but the Mk4s really are unreliable old tat now and are being replaced with 2 car DMUs far too often.

 

[Snow1964]

You could reform them into 6 car sets and add ASDO. Or you could scrap them, but the Mk4s really are unreliable old tat now and are being replaced with 2 car DMUs far too often.

2 car DMUs on long quasi-intercity services is even worse than 4 or 5 car voyagers on Intercity trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

2 car DMUs on long quasi-intercity services is even worse than 4 or 5 car voyagers on Intercity trains

2 car DMUs pretty much anywhere bar the quietest branch lines are a massive problem, certainly. Fortunately there are unlikely to be any more built due to not being able to fit the gubbins for bi-mode working underneath 2 coaches, and due to not being able to fit the gubbins for even a DMU underneath if you're going low floor, but we are stuck with rather a lot of 2 car 195s, 196s and 197s none of which should really ever have been built.

 

[Amaranthe]

The Mark 4 sets are higher capacity than the Voyagers. Probably not an option.

And I'm guessing the voyagers don't have a full kitchen?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I'm guessing the voyagers don't have a full kitchen?

For all enthusiasts love the traditional on board chef approach it really isn't essential, and they do have basic galley kitchens capable of doing "first class freebie" type food.

 

[cle]

The Mark 4 sets are higher capacity than the Voyagers. Probably not an option.

Already being replaced by 222s. Not an option.

Given EWR is not even open yet then why would they already need a replacement for the 196s? Not an option.

Which takes us back to the starting question.

Mk4 are not all the services, and having 5 car Voyagers consistently would be an increase on today. Would also be an improvement for Coast/Liverpool services.

EWR - I don't believe there are enough 196s to double up units, so yes, it is not open yet but it will quickly exceed a 2 car 196 - so this need is inevitable.

 

[NCT]

It's nearly 2027. The Voyagers have life until about 2035. That's not enough time for mucking about. There's about 3 years time of thumb twiddling before an order for new trains needs to be placed.

And let's be clear, the first 10 years of the nationalised railway will be remembered for austerity and disappointment. I would dampen any hope of electrification in time for the next XC fleet to avoid diesel.

The best can be hoped for is that the 810s sort themselves out allowing the remaining 221s to join the XC fleet. That'll be it.

 

[D365]

It's nearly 2027. The Voyagers have life until about 2035. That's not enough time for mucking about. There's about 3 years time of thumb twiddling before an order for new trains needs to be placed.

Considering that the remaining Class 15x/16x fleets don't yet have a commitment for their replacement. I admire your optimism that the Class 22x will be end of life by 2035.

 

[38Cto15E]

In time will EMR have any 7 car Aurora sets or will everything be 5 car because of the platform length at St Pancras.

 

[JonathanH]

In time will EMR have any 7 car Aurora sets or will everything be 5 car because of the platform length at St Pancras.

There aren't any 7 car units on order, or plans to have any. Busy trains are intended to be pairs of 810s.

 

[800001]

In time will EMR have any 7 car Aurora sets or will everything be 5 car because of the platform length at St Pancras.

Only 5 car sets. As only 5 car sets allow 2 sets to be in each platform.

A 7 car set would occupy platform and prevent another EMR service from using it at the same time.

 

[50002Superb]

In time will EMR have any 7 car Aurora sets or will everything be 5 car because of the platform length at St Pancras.

Why would they need seven car sets?

 

[38Cto15E]

I have read on the forums that many 5 car sets on the MML are full and standing, that is why.

 

[mangyiscute]

Euston-Chester/Holyhead and Paddington-Oxford/Worcester/Hereford are two services that seem to work well with 5-car trains, doubled up in the peaks from Chester/Oxford.

I can tell you don't often travel to Oxford - these trains are always full when they are 5 cars whether at weekends, during the day on weekdays or in traditional peaks. The 9 cars can get quite busy too at certain times. Oxford station has seen an unprecendented rise in demand in the past 20 years and it needs a service that reflects that - it must be electrified and a half hourly 8 car 387 service provided on top of the worcester/hereford services.

 

[800001]

I have read on the forums that many 5 car sets on the MML are full and standing, that is why.

A 5 car Emr 810 has nearly as many seats as a 7 car 222 had I believe.