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UK switching to electric vehicles discussion

Mawkie

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Drivers really need to take some form of responsibility and stop trying to blame pedestrians for their own incompetence.
This thread has taken a very bizarre turn! There is a hierarchy of road users, and pedestrians are at the top. No other comment needs to be made.

My own car flashes a red bar on the camera screen and creates an audible alert if a person (or car) is approaching, similar to below:
Screenshot_2026-09-24-10-47-18-63_3aea4af51f236e4932235fdada7d1643.jpg
But there is nothing better than a good look around before you move off.

Incidentally, the same system prevents me opening a door into a passing cyclist, whereby the 1st push of the door open button is deactivated (and the door remains closed) and warnings are given as above. After a visual check, the 2nd push will open the door.

Vulnerable road users have to be protected. End of story.
 
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Bletchleyite

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This thread has taken a very bizarre turn! There is a hierarchy of road users, and pedestrians are at the top. No other comment needs to be made.

This is simply not true. Defensive road use is important - there is no point having a gravestone saying "here lies Mawkie, they had the right of way".

You have to assume other road users will do something stupid at any possible time and drive, ride or walk accordingly. Then it's just a raised fist or middle finger that results, not a fatality.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Vulnerable road users have to be protected. End of story.

They also need to act defensively. Or at some point they will end up dead.

Humans are fallible and often negligent. We have to assume they will be at the worst possible time.
 

Mawkie

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This is simply not true. Defensive road use is important - there is no point having a gravestone saying "here lies Mawkie, they had the right of way".

The introduction section of The Highway Code has been updated to include 3 new rules about the new ‘hierarchy of road users’.

The hierarchy places those road users most at risk in the event of a collision at the top of the hierarchy. It does not remove the need for everyone to behave responsibly.
Nobody is suggesting that pedestrians, or cyclists, or horse riders, should be able to jump out in front of traffic and expect a 3 ton SUV to stop. Physics comes into play of course, but if the driver is driving too fast, not paying attention, driving whilst distracted, then the law now takes a much dimmer view when it comes to a car vs pedestrian collision over a car vs car collision.

If technology can supplement a lack of thinking in some car drivers, then I'm all for it.

(Although I think we're a bit off topic as most new cars have these kinds of sensors, not just EVs.)
 

Bletchleyite

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Nobody is suggesting that pedestrians, or cyclists, or horse riders, should be able to jump out in front of traffic and expect a 3 ton SUV to stop. Physics comes into play of course, but if the driver is driving too fast, not paying attention, driving whilst distracted, then the law now takes a much dimmer view when it comes to a car vs pedestrian collision over a car vs car collision.

The law should absolutely take a dim view on negligent driving, but it will still happen, so defensive road use remains critically important.

If technology can supplement a lack of thinking in some car drivers, then I'm all for it.

I'm not opposed either, though some of the implementation is rubbish. I'm sick of my Kia trying to steer me into a wall on a country lane where there isn't enough space to the left of the centreline (shouldn't really be a centreline on such a road, but often there is) and of it blaring and wheelshaking at me that I'm about to hit someone who has turned left and is already out of my path, so implementations need to be good to avoid damaging credibility of such systems.
 

Bikeman78

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They could add even more artificial noises if it were deemed necessary.

In reality there's two responsibilities in such situations - the driver to make all round observations, which they need to do regardless of fuel type; and the pedestrians to make all round observations, which they need to do to avoid colliding with cyclists or even other pedestrians anyway.

I'd be surprised if the lack of engine noise made a significant contribution to pedestrian KSIs.
I can only speak as I find. I've had a few near misses with vehicles that have pulled away without warning. I'm not really sure what else I can do as a pedestrian. If someone gets into a car then that is an obvious warning sign, but in the cases I'm thinking of the driver must have been in the car before I got close. Probably fiddling with their phone.
 

Silent

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This thread has taken a very bizarre turn! There is a hierarchy of road users, and pedestrians are at the top. No other comment needs to be made.

My own car flashes a red bar on the camera screen and creates an audible alert if a person (or car) is approaching, similar to below:
View attachment 212123
But there is nothing better than a good look around before you move off.

Incidentally, the same system prevents me opening a door into a passing cyclist, whereby the 1st push of the door open button is deactivated (and the door remains closed) and warnings are given as above. After a visual check, the 2nd push will open the door.

Vulnerable road users have to be protected. End of story.


I notice a red warning triangle on the corners of side mirrors on some modern cars when cycling.
 

Bikeman78

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In the real world however it's also incumbent on pedestrians to assume any vehicle with someone in the driving seat may move at any time. No point being right but dead.

Engine noise or fake noise is needed for blind people, but everyone else needs to use their eyes rather than their mobile phone.
I consider myself to be reasonably alert but I've been caught out a few times. The best one was what turned out to be a hybrid in a filling station. I certainly didn't expect it to move suddenly without first hearing the engine start.
 

Bletchleyite

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I consider myself to be reasonably alert but I've been caught out a few times. The best one was what turned out to be a hybrid in a filling station. I certainly didn't expect it to move suddenly without first hearing the engine start.

That's a lesson that will need to be learnt. Sometimes changes of technology mean we have to think differently. At some point you learnt that a starting engine signified a threat, now you'll need to find new signals.
 

styles

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I notice a red warning triangle on the corners of side mirrors on some modern cars when cycling.
Blind spot indicators usually. One of the better innovations in my opinion, as it's really not that rare to see drivers changing lanes or turning without checking their blind spots.
 

Mawkie

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This article from Carbon Brief suggests the recent increase in petrol and diesel now means that EVs are nine times cheaper than fossil fuel cars! This figure is based upon cheap overnight home charging, but remains three times cheaper even if charging at the current electricity price cap.

As such, it now costs an estimated 21p per mile to drive a diesel car and 20.1p per mile for petrol, according to Carbon Brief analysis of the latest figures from the Department of Energy Security and Net Zero (DESNZ).

In contrast, it is currently nine times cheaper to drive an EV charged using an off-peak tariff, at 2.3p per mile, as shown in the chart below.
 

Bald Rick

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This article from Carbon Brief suggests the recent increase in petrol and diesel now means that EVs are nine times cheaper than fossil fuel cars! This figure is based upon cheap overnight home charging, but remains three times cheaper even if charging at the current electricity price cap.



I had the misfortune to have to do an ‘emergency’ splash and dash for diesel at a Motorway services last week: £2.19 a litre. Even at the 52mpg I was getting, that’s 19p a mile. For our EV we use standard rate electricity (its actually cheaper for us) It’s only 7p a mile.
 

Peter Sarf

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I used to live (renting) in an extremely attractive and desirable small town/large village. It was very historic and quaint with tiny narrow roads and when we were looking to buy in the area we quickly realised that having a drive or even access to private parking would easily add 50k, if not more, to the price of the home compared to those houses with no parking. That was over 10 years ago now.

The ability to charge at home will start to influence houses prices. Houses with no potential ability to charge at home will be less desirable to car drivers and those houses with home charging (or the potential) will become more desirable. That in turn will influence the price that folk pay. I’m not saying this will happen overnight, and it certainly won’t be as extreme as my example above, but it will happen. And it’s not necessarily a bad thing as it will enable folk who don’t have need of car to find slightly cheaper housing.
This is something I need to get on with. Perhaps I should be selling my own two up two down that is deeper into Croydon as it has no off street parking. I do not use it myself and renting is getting less attractive (as in more hassle).

I can see that the demographic of people who cannot afford motoring is going to get larger. That is not necessarily a bad thing for ecology but those who are lucky enough to be able to afford a newish EV in an area with a driveway should avoid appearing smug. Bear n mind not all of the population will be able to embrace the new technology so easily.

There is now an acute shortage of kerb space to park cars. Curiously it can be worse in villages with terraced housing than in some leafier parts of London, such as around Bromley, where there are wide residential roads and plenty of houses with driveways. For years it was assumed that car ownership is not a problem, only car usage, but it is getting to the stage where there is literally nowhere to park the sheer volume of cars. So car clubs increasingly make a lot of sense and it would make sense to prioritise kerb EV charging for these vehicles.
For example. The road my partners house is in. We moved the family there in 2004. There used to be one van that parked on the opposite side of the road otherwise that side was bereft of parked vehicles. All other vehicles were on our side of the road. Twenty two years later we are struggling to get a space on either side !. So roughly the number of cars parked n our road had doubled over 22 years. Beginning to see gardens turned into concrete.
 

AM9

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This is something I need to get on with. Perhaps I should be selling my own two up two down that is deeper into Croydon as it has no off street parking. I do not use it myself and renting is getting less attractive (as in more hassle).

I can see that the demographic of people who cannot afford motoring is going to get larger. That is not necessarily a bad thing for ecology but those who are lucky enough to be able to afford a newish EV in an area with a driveway should avoid appearing smug. Bear n mind not all of the population will be able to embrace the new technology so easily.


For example. The road my partners house is in. We moved the family there in 2004. There used to be one van that parked on the opposite side of the road otherwise that side was bereft of parked vehicles. All other vehicles were on our side of the road. Twenty two years later we are struggling to get a space on either side !. So roughly the number of cars parked n our road had doubled over 22 years. Beginning to see gardens turned into concrete.
Choosing whether to have a car should be done taking in suitable parking facilities. In many areas there is an excess of cars chasing a fixed amount of kerb space. Also, 'concreting' the garden over can only be done by reducing the usable kerb space.
 

Noddy

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those who are lucky enough to be able to afford a newish EV in an area with a driveway should avoid appearing smug.

As I said used to. I now live in the ex local authority 3 bed semi. But like the vast majority of cheap current or former council houses in suburban and out of town locations it does have a driveway.
 

cactustwirly

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There's a lot of old hogwash surrounding EVs in the media. I'm still seeing the silly old range-anxiety tropes peddled everywhere. For example, Carwow recently did (yet another) multicar test of smaller EVs and ran them until the batteries depleted and had to be trailered away. I think you have to be some kind of moron to ask yourself the question, "What happens when my vehicle runs out of energy?" Well, the answer is it stops. Duh! I've never seen those kinds of tests for fossil fuel vehicles.

It's pointless really, everyone knows that official testing figures don't represent real life driving - that has always been true for petrol, diesel, and now EVs. Do we need to be told again and again you won't get 300 miles range?

We've had the massive super SUVs and some manufacturers are forcing technical advancements on newly developed EV vehicles, but efficiency should be the measure of interest - how far a vehicle goes on a unit of energy.
I think it's because it doesn't make any sense.
If you said a car did 10 miles per kWh, I have no perception of how efficient that is. Whereas a petrol I know 40mpg is average, 50mpg is good and 30mpg is thirsty.

I don't see how it's an unfair test, if gives people an idea of the absolute range of the EVs.
 

johncrossley

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If you said a car did 10 miles per kWh, I have no perception of how efficient that is. Whereas a petrol I know 40mpg is average, 50mpg is good and 30mpg is thirsty.
That's only because of the legacy of using petrol cars. And given that we don't buy petrol in gallons and haven't done for decades, it isn't even that helpful. Whereas you know how much you are paying for 1 kWh of electricity.
 

Harpers Tate

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I think that (probably because of the much-touted range-anxiety thing) EV makers tend to major on range, rather than efficiency (i.e. miles per kWh) in their sales pitch. It's not always easy to establish but a "back of a cig packet" calculation might be
{claimed range} divided by {usable battery capacity} = miles per kWh. (e.g. range 370 miles; Battery 77kWh; 370/77 = 4.8 miles per kWh). As with any fuel consumption, it's highly dependent on how you drive the thing, and it's very easy to obtain far worse actual range by hard acceleration and unnecessarily high speeds. EVs (by most ICE standards) are very lively and responsive and to get good economy, a degree of self-restraint may be beneficial.

Take your miles per kWh and multiply by the per-unit cost of electricity and you get a cost per mile. My example: A kWh at home overnight presently costs me (at a price I suspect I'll never see again once my fixed term ends) net 1.99 pence, falling to net 1.8 when the VAT reduction comes in. That works out to under 0.4p/mile. If I signed up to a new deal right now, I'd have to pay maybe 5p/kWh which is a shade over 1p/mile at 4.8 miles per unit. You would need to do your own calculation based on where and when you charge, and the rates you'd therefore pay, vs. your car's consumption. If you have surplus domestic solar then it can cost as little as nothing.
 

Mawkie

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If you said a car did 10 miles per kWh, I have no perception of how efficient that is. Whereas a petrol I know 40mpg is average, 50mpg is good and 30mpg is thirsty.
Screenshot_2026-09-25-17-14-30-07_92460851df6f172a4592fca41cc2d2e6.jpg

My latest drive to work 'cost' me 1.1 kWh to go 9 miles. You will know the cost of your own electricity - it can be 5p per kWh or 21p at the off peak Supercharger, or 89p at Shell Recharge.

Forgive my chatgpt conversion, I've no idea if it's true, but someone here will.
Here is the quick breakdown:
* UK Imperial Gallon Energy Equivalent: 1 UK gallon of petrol contains approx. 40,472 Wh (40.472 kWh).
* Calculation: Based on 121.6 Wh/mi, the equivalent is 332.8 UK MPGe.
So my EV (driving style, distance, weather, speed, etc) is exceptionally efficient compared to a petrol car at 332mpg, but it still doesn't help you understand the relative efficiency, compared to other EVs. The measure of that is Wh/mile instead of MPG.
 

Snow1964

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If you said a car did 10 miles per kWh, I have no perception of how efficient that is. Whereas a petrol I know 40mpg is average, 50mpg is good and 30mpg is thirsty.
You have sort of learnt the mpg rule of thumb, over time

For EVs a rule of thumb would be
4 - 4.2 miles per KWh normally, 4.3 - 4.8 on favourable roads

small cars, bit more normally, say 4.1 - 4.4 miles per KWh
all EVs less in very cold weather 3.5 - 3.8 (due to electric heating)

So very roughly, if you use 4 as rule of thumb, then multiply 4 by battery size gives normal realistic range (or use 3.5 times on cold winter days)

Hope this helps

or perhaps easier to think 100 miles needs 25 KWh
or £1.70 - £2.20 for 100 miles on overnight electricity (at 6.8 - 9p per unit)

£1.70 - £2.20 of petrol or diesel would probably only get you 6-8 miles, not 100 miles
 
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Peter Sarf

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Demand for pool cars is uneven, in that at different times the traffic flows will be in different directions. Morning commutes to work would empty the pools in the suburbs and concentrate cars in commercial/industrial areas. That would leave none for the daytime shoppers and those with appointments at hairdressers, doctors, etc.

Meanwhile, in those commercial/industrial areas, there will be little demand for cars parked there until it's time to go home.

Rental e-scooters in my area are a good analogy. The hire company has vans going round to pick up scooters that have congregated in certain places, then drop them off where there is a shortage of them. Not easy to replicate the logistics of that with cars.
I often see eBikes in London being moved around in vans to move then back to where more demand is expected. Typical place is around Euston station. So there is a dramatic imbalance that is big enough that capacity is not enough in many places to accommodate the normal daily tidal flow.

The Lime bikes do not have docking stations and I have watched a van load get unloaded onto the sloping pavement that is a crossing by Euston !. Goodness knows what an area near a station might look like if hire cars were the vehicles in question. A pity really as for many car usage is quite low so then again not really a regular commuter issue. So it might be bad around Wembley when a big band is playing.
That doesn't really help if someone puts their foot down, which plenty do. If a vehicle is silent but able to move rapidly at any moment then it's hard to predict.
Tell me about it. I was halfway up the stairs on a double deck bus having just got on when BANG off it went leaving me falling backwards down the stairs. I should have given the driver a piece of my mind but I was too busy with my injury.
The EV in question was stationary when my wife & son started to pass it. They were over halfway past when it started to move.

Given this was a supermarket car park, it is not uncommon for there to be somebody sat in a seat just waiting for another member of their party to arrive. I do believe that it is incumbent on the drivers to fully review their surroundings and to be aware that in a car park, that there might be people shorter than the height of their bonnet walking around.
I always check. I even look at the cars when using a crossing controlled by lights incase the driver is making a mistake - common one is looking at their mobile instead of obeying the traffic lights. I have walked off the pavement to get close enough to see the reason they are looking up is from the screen on their lap. But I agree pulling off from stationary gives no clues.
In the real world however it's also incumbent on pedestrians to assume any vehicle with someone in the driving seat may move at any time. No point being right but dead.

Engine noise or fake noise is needed for blind people, but everyone else needs to use their eyes rather than their mobile phone.
How does it work if you are walking along a line of parked cars to your space. Which car do you stand in front of when waiting for an unsuspected move. I often see cars parked with a driver in them (often on the phone). With an engine there is a change of engine note and a slower pull off. Electric Cars are much quicker off the mark and with no clue.

Mind you my nearest misses have been crossing a one way street when an eBike came very fast the wrong way. Plus several close shaves ON the pavement.

As a car driver (better still sitting on the bus upstairs at the front) I do see some absolute suicidal morons on foot and mobile users in cars !.
Choosing whether to have a car should be done taking in suitable parking facilities. In many areas there is an excess of cars chasing a fixed amount of kerb space. Also, 'concreting' the garden over can only be done by reducing the usable kerb space.
I agree but actually you can park across your own dropped curb. So one space in the road that has to be shared could become my own (unshared) three spaces (two on the garden plus one on the road). I learnt from Croydon Council that if you register you car with them or at the address then parking fines are either not issued or (more likely) rescinded upon appeal. Somethijg to that effect. So I would end up with my own personal space on the road AND two spaces for visitors on the garden. The pressure is on to do it before the council "improve" the parking situation by putting in a residents parking scheme !.
View attachment 212300

My latest drive to work 'cost' me 1.1 kWh to go 9 miles. You will know the cost of your own electricity - it can be 5p per kWh or 21p at the off peak Supercharger, or 89p at Shell Recharge.

Forgive my chatgpt conversion, I've no idea if it's true, but someone here will.

So my EV (driving style, distance, weather, speed, etc) is exceptionally efficient compared to a petrol car at 332mpg, but it still doesn't help you understand the relative efficiency, compared to other EVs. The measure of that is Wh/mile instead of MPG.
We really need - at todays prices - a cost per mile for each EV and a cost per mile for each ICE. Then we would be comparing like with like.

Obviously the cost per mile for a particular vehicle varies depending on how it is driven BUT figures could be calculated for a standard user.

Fluctuations in fuel prices would cause the figures to need regular updating but I doubt the difference between ICE and EV would vary enough to make petrol/diesel cheaper !.
 

Snow1964

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Fluctuations in fuel prices would cause the figures to need regular updating but I doubt the difference between ICE and EV would vary enough to make petrol/diesel cheaper !.
At current prices for 100 miles in a car

Overnight electricity 7-9p per unit is about £1.80-£2.20
Standard electricity 27-30p per unit about £6.60 - £7.50
Most expensive rapid chargers, 89p per unit is about £21

Petrol at £1.78-1.85 at 40mpg is about £21
Petrol at £1.78-1.85 at 30mpg is about £25

Diesel at £1.95-2.10 at 50mpg is about £18
Diesel at £1.95-2.10 at 40mpg is about £23

add about 10% for fuel bought at motorway fuel stations
.
 

johncrossley

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It should be noted that EVs are particularly efficient (especially in comparison to ICE vehicles) in stop start traffic in urban areas.
 

Peter Sarf

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At current prices for 100 miles in a car

Overnight electricity 7-9p per unit is about £1.80-£2.20
Standard electricity 27-30p per unit about £6.60 - £7.50
Most expensive rapid chargers, 89p per unit is about £21

Petrol at £1.78-1.85 at 40mpg is about £21
Petrol at £1.78-1.85 at 30mpg is about £25

Diesel at £1.95-2.10 at 50mpg is about £18
Diesel at £1.95-2.10 at 40mpg is about £23

add about 10% for fuel bought at motorway fuel stations
.
Thanks. So EVs are clearly cheaper if the most expensive chargers are avoided. Bit surprised even the most expensive rapid chargers are close to ICE costs !.
It should be noted that EVs are particularly efficient (especially in comparison to ICE vehicles) in stop start traffic in urban areas.
Good point. The urban cycle vs long distance.

I always assumed the beauty of an EV is recouping a lot of the energy required due to acceleration when braking - so stop start urban driving must put EVs streets ahead of ICEs so to speak.
 

bspahh

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So EVs are clearly cheaper if the most expensive chargers are avoided. Bit surprised even the most expensive rapid chargers are close to ICE costs !
Expensive chargers mean they are also chargers that are likely to be available without queuing. You only need to use them for enough charge to get to a cheaper charger, so even paying a lot per kWh might not cost that much overall.

Most EVs are new enough that depreciation costs far more than charging.
 

Harpers Tate

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Thanks. So EVs are clearly cheaper if the most expensive chargers are avoided. Bit surprised even the most expensive rapid chargers are close to ICE costs !.
Bear in mind: if an EV user has the option to home charge, but needs some of their charging to take place at (overpriced) "away" locations, it's not the cost of that/those charging sessions only that is material; it's the average over all charges, home and away. Clearly someone who has to do 100% of their refuelling at "away" locations won't experience the gaping chasm of cost vs. petrol/diesel - but anyone with a mix will, to a greater degree the greater the proportion of cheap home use. So for many - the net/average cost will still be lower, despite expensive roadside points.

I mean - if diesel costs £2/litre at a fuel station, but you had the option to home-brew at 20p/litre, would you consider the £2, the 20p, or a proportionate mixture of both to work out what you were paying overall. If you could do all of your mileage on home-brew then you'd be well ahead, whereas if you had no home-brew......
 

Bald Rick

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I was away last night and had to charge this morning at 22kW, just under 25kWh at 49p a pop which was enough to get me home with 25% left. At the 3.9m/kWh I got on the trip (mostly motorway), it works out at 12.5p a mile It’s rather cheaper than my diesel, which at 50mpg on similar trips is 18p a mile, and much cheaper than my petrol which at 32mpg on similar trips is 25p a mile.

Now you can bet your last penny that at some point in the next year or two fuel prices will fall and electricity prices rise, and at that juncture someone will come out of the woodwork to say that their diesel car is cheaper.
 

Peter Sarf

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I was away last night and had to charge this morning at 22kW, just under 25kWh at 49p a pop which was enough to get me home with 25% left. At the 3.9m/kWh I got on the trip (mostly motorway), it works out at 12.5p a mile It’s rather cheaper than my diesel, which at 50mpg on similar trips is 18p a mile, and much cheaper than my petrol which at 32mpg on similar trips is 25p a mile.

Now you can bet your last penny that at some point in the next year or two fuel prices will fall and electricity prices rise, and at that juncture someone will come out of the woodwork to say that their diesel car is cheaper.
Last sentence - Do you think this is why VAT on Electricity and Gas (as in down a pipe not US petrol) has been removed ?.

I does alarm me that this Labour government is getting rid of tax revenue. Apart from them needing it for all their spending plans it also indicates shaky logic on road pricing to replace declining revenue from fuel duty - which might be at record highs at the moment, despite declining use, due to inflated prices courtesy of Trumps policies.

So, I wonder, does this indicate draconian road tax (road fund licence or VED) in the future for both EV and ICE ?.
 

speedy1

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What's the current state of cost of insurance for these new Chinese brands - EVs in particular I recall? I read a couple of months ago of rates of like £300/mo!
 

vjm1975

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What's the current state of cost of insurance for these new Chinese brands - EVs in particular I recall? I read a couple of months ago of rates of like £300/mo!
I’ve just purchased a 2 year old MG4. Cost me an extra £20 for the remaining 4 months of my insurance cover. My previous car was a 2020 Fiesta ST with the insurance being around £280 for this year.
 

gswindale

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What's the current state of cost of insurance for these new Chinese brands - EVs in particular I recall? I read a couple of months ago of rates of like £300/mo!
I've just compared the meerkat for a Geely ex5. Most of the quotes were coming in between £400 - £500 for a year. That compares to prices around £250 pa for my 13 year old Auris and around £340 for a 25 plate Corolla, so a little more expensive, but nothing like the £3.6k you're suggesting.
 

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