Can people just pay by card instead of using cash?

[cb a1]

I was inter-railing through Spain and France last week with an archaeologist friend. She was explaining how back in the 17th and 18th century, young English / British aristocrats would go on 'the grand tour'. It got me wondering how on earth did they deal with the finances.

According to Google: "Before departure, wealthy tourists deposited large lump sums or arranged credit with a home bank (such as a reputable London bank). The bank provided a formal letter of credit or introduction addressed to foreign merchant-banker "correspondents" in major European hubs like Paris, Venice, Florence, and Rome"

In a sense, I would say the modern banking system has effectively come full circle back to that. I put money into my home bank and my bank effectively gives me a 'letter of credit' in the form of a bank card that a foreign merchant is confidently able to read and provide me with the services I need.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm a parking app refusenik, so I don't know how they work. But I assume that each separate app requires you to input your bank card details? This perception deters me from using them, as most of these companies seem to be start-ups that appear from nowhere (and may disappear as quickly), and which have unknown levels of (in)security or even potential fraudulence. That's on top of the widely publicised cases of fraudulent QR codes diverting your payment and your account details to criminal scammers. It's hardly surprising that people are dubious about using them.

Most of this is unjustified fear. The apps deliberately don't use QR codes - never scan one to pay for parking - you key in a number from the signs directly in the relevant app. You use Apple or Google Pay to pay for the parking - you *can* enter the card details but it's a very old fashioned way.

The bit about them being startups is simply false. Most car parks use RingGo or PayByPhone - these have been around for years. There are a few others but none are "start-ups that appear from nowhere".

There can be issues with them - I believe I may have been overcharged by PayByPhone this weekend - but there can with machines too. I will report back when I find out from the Council what was going on! But 99.999999% of the time I find they are fine and extremely convenient compared to carrying buckets of coins.

My Mum's local chippie (in Oxford) actually has a sign saying they prefer payment by cash! Which is fine by me......

My local chippy is the only place where I now use cash - it's the only business that I use that is cash only! If they'd just start taking card I could stop carrying cash entirely, I don't really use it for anything else now.

I'm more concerned about tickets for rugby clubs where I increasingly have to download the away club app to get my tickets. I've now got 14 rugby club apps on my phone...

Strange that you can't just book via their website and download an Apple/Google Wallet pass...

Cash - I normally carry £10 or £20 in emergency but like @Bald Rick I generally make 2 or 3 visits to a cash point each year. I pay for everything with a credit card, the exception is my local chippie for my occasional visits that is cash only.

What is it about chippies? They do seem to be the last hold-outs of cash only...it's not a business I really associate with financial crime, so why else do it?

I never use a physical card - it's phone wallet payments for me - so simple. I can actually see a time coming when banks will start to charge customers who want a physical card.

Ironically the main thing stopping them doing this is...cash. Cashpoints don't generally have contactless readers. I can't see any reason they *couldn't* though, and it would wipe out "cloning" fraud instantly if they did this and got rid of inserting the card entirely. It would still be possible to verify the PIN for added security as this can, as with magstripe use, be done online to the bank. But there should be no need for this if Apple/Google Pay is used.

For example, we know the direction of travel is closure of bank branches. We can argue about whether that’s good or bad but the fact is it’s happening. Take my local town, Stevenage, there were at least two branches of every major bank - one in the old town the other in the newer town centre, plus many building society branches. Then all the banks in the old town closed.

I can't think of any benefit of 2020s style branch banking over doing it online and by phone. Decisions are made centrally regardless - it's not like you can go back to the manager of the local branch deciding your loan application, no bank works that way now. I have not branch banked for my personal banking since 1999.

 

[Haywain]

Strange that you can't just book via their website and download an Apple/Google Wallet pass...

Test cricket grounds are the same. Happily, football clubs are late adopters of eTickets, but don't confine them to apps.

 

[35B]

I can't think of any benefit of 2020s style branch banking over doing it online and by phone. Decisions are made centrally regardless - it's not like you can go back to the manager of the local branch deciding your loan application, no bank works that way now. I have not branch banked for my personal banking since 1999.

For routine banking, possibly. From experience of administering an estate, there have been times when face to face banking has been essential.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For routine banking, possibly. From experience of administering an estate, there have been times when face to face banking has been essential.

In what way could the same thing not be completed via a call centre, post and email etc? I am sure Monzo and the likes have dedicated teams for this.

 

[Bald Rick]

My local chippy is the only place where I now use cash - it's the only business that I use that is cash only! If they'd just start taking card I could stop carrying cash entirely, I don't really use it for anything else now.

Alternatively, you could stop carrying cash entirely by giving up the chippy!

(I don’t know the cash position for our chippies, simply because I don’t use them).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Alternatively, you could stop carrying cash emtirely by giving up the chippy!

That would be good for my waistline. I could also drive further and go to another chippy that does take card I suppose.

 

[35B]

In what way could the same thing not be completed via a call centre, post and email etc? I am sure Monzo and the likes have dedicated teams for this.

As an executor before probate, time is of the essence. Proving identity and being able to confirm status was vital, and a 10 minute face to face conversation with my fellow executor was far more efficient than sending original papers in.

It is the exceptions that prove the necessity, where importance far outweighs frequency.

PS - Monzo do not offer executors accounts.

 

[Bald Rick]

on a similar cash matter, for convoluted reasons I had to use the counter service at the main post office last week, for the first time in years.

There were three counters open, two of which had people unloading huge amounts of parcels, presumably dispatch from a home based business (one woman had somehow carried in about 50 shoebox size parcels!).
anyway, the chap in front of me went to the third desk, and promptly unloaded load of coins, mostly (but not all) bagged up. He was still there 10 mins later (as was I!!!!). So annoying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

PS - Monzo do not offer executors accounts.

No, but they will deal with executors dealing with accounts of deceased people, they cannot not do so.

 

[Hadders]

Strange that you can't just book via their website and download an Apple/Google Wallet pass...

That was what used to happen (and still does for some clubs) but apparently my 'matchday experience is being imporved' by forcing the downloading of apps in which to hold tickets.

Cashpoints don't generally have contactless readers.

The newly ATM at Barclays in Stevenage does have a contactless reader but it wasn't enabled when I tried it to see what would happen.

 

[DarloRich]

I find most places I go remarkably keen to get their hands on my cash when I offer it in note or coin form.

I wonder why that might be?

It does underline the fact that the cashless society is totally dependent on high (or not so very high) tech infrastructure.

The cash machine relies on the same/similar technology - I do wonder what the bank plan is for a widespread technology outage.

It's the persistence of car parks forcing yet another app to be installed each one

Ring Go seems almost universal - at least in my experience

My Mum's local chippie (in Oxford) actually has a sign saying they prefer payment by cash! Which is fine by me......

I bet they do!

However, a neer-do-well could quickly use my lost or stolen card to spend £100 contactlessly (or whatever the current limit is) and £100 over and over again until I noticed that the card was gone.

I can pause my card instantly on my baking app.

I go into a bank and take it out of my account. Granted I am lucky in that my nearest town still has a full complement of branches.

As Bald Rick clearly knows, you just write a cheque to cash,

You must be the only person in the UK with a cheque book! I am not even sure my bank issues them for personal accounts! I had top check if y town had a branch of my bank and it turns out it does. I have been here 18 years and never once been in.

In fairness when times were hard about 20 years ago I used cheques for everything. Took a week to clear and another week for someone to tell me they had bounced by which time something would have turned up. Problem was by the time the cheque book ran out they wouldn't give me another because I bounced so many!

Each to their own but I have no idea why you would do this - seems like such a faff. What happens if you need cash at stupid o'clock or Sunday?

 

[Bald Rick]

I can pause my card instantly on my baking app.

Protecting your dough…

 

[35B]

No, but they will deal with executors dealing with accounts of deceased people, they cannot not do so.

Great. An executors account was essential for this estate. Which is where the in person element came in

 

[Haywain]

Protecting your dough…

Gotta look after your bread...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Great. An executors account was essential for this estate. Which is where the in person element came in

If bank branches cease to be a thing, no doubt it will be possible to do this online.

 

[35B]

If bank branches cease to be a thing, no doubt it will be possible to do this online.

Phrases about babies and bath water come to mind

 

[WesternLancer]

I was inter-railing through Spain and France last week with an archaeologist friend. She was explaining how back in the 17th and 18th century, young English / British aristocrats would go on 'the grand tour'. It got me wondering how on earth did they deal with the finances.

According to Google: "Before departure, wealthy tourists deposited large lump sums or arranged credit with a home bank (such as a reputable London bank). The bank provided a formal letter of credit or introduction addressed to foreign merchant-banker "correspondents" in major European hubs like Paris, Venice, Florence, and Rome"

In a sense, I would say the modern banking system has effectively come full circle back to that. I put money into my home bank and my bank effectively gives me a 'letter of credit' in the form of a bank card that a foreign merchant is confidently able to read and provide me with the services I need.

Fascinating. I’d never thought of the financial aspects of the grand tour.

 

[DarloRich]

Great. An executors account was essential for this estate. Which is where the in person element came in

If bank branches cease to be a thing, no doubt it will be possible to do this online.

i dealt with my late fathers estate personally and didn't once step into the bank. All done by email or actual letter.

 

[35B]

i dealt with my late fathers estate personally and didn't once step into the bank. All done by email or actual letter.

This one was rather more complicated than I’d expected. Still is, given HMRC interest

 

[DarloRich]

This one was rather more complicated than I’d expected. Still is, given HMRC interest

there are always HMRC complications! I found the bank very helpful and very easy to deal with. I even got a special phone number for executor/administrator support & advice.

 

[najaB]

Cashpoints don't generally have contactless readers. I can't see any reason they *couldn't* though, and it would wipe out "cloning" fraud instantly if they did this and got rid of inserting the card entirely.

The three closest ATMs to my front door are all bank branch machines and have contactless readers, not that I've ever had reason to figure out how to use them.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm more concerned about tickets for rugby clubs where I increasingly have to download the away club app to get my tickets. I've now got 14 rugby club apps on my phone...

Strange that you can't just book via their website and download an Apple/Google Wallet pass...

that REALLY annoys me. I have to do the same for non league football clubs. I am sure it is just about getting data for a mailing list and increasing digital footprint size! The most annoying thing is the ticklet almost always comes as as google wallet file!

 

[Silver Cobra]

I never use a physical card - it's phone wallet payments for me - so simple. I can actually see a time coming when banks will start to charge customers who want a physical card.

After a recent experience in Morrisons, I wouldn't be comfortable doing this myself, if this means you don't even carry any physical cards with you (I know quite a few people don't carry the cards any more and just purely rely on their phone apps to pay for anything).

Last week I was in my local Morrisons paying for a small amount of shopping at a self-service checkout. As a regular user of Google Pay/Wallet, I instinctively went to pay for the shopping with this, only to have the card terminal do the 'three bongs' error noise. Thinking I might have just closed the app too soon or done something silly, I tried it again, only to have the terminal make the same error noise. Several more attempts later with no success, I take my bank card and tap that for the contactless payment, which succeeded immediately. In the process of doing all this, I observed another customer having the same problem when trying to use an app on their phone to pay (couldn't say if it was also Google Pay/Wallet or Apple Pay), and also resorting to their physical bank card, thus indicating to me the possibility that there was an issue with Google Pay/Wallet.

Had I not had my physical card with me I would have had to do the 'walk of shame', leaving the shopping behind and walking out the store with nothing.

 

[35B]

there are always HMRC complications! I found the bank very helpful and very easy to deal with. I even got a special phone number for executor/administrator support & advice.

Two separate issues. The executor’s account was to ring fence money until Probate, and allow consolidation of accounts in one place. Those various places are a story in their own right, and partially the cause of the HMRC interest

 

[Bletchleyite]

After a recent experience in Morrisons, I wouldn't be comfortable doing this myself, if this means you don't even carry any physical cards with you (I know quite a few people don't carry the cards any more and just purely rely on their phone apps to pay for anything).

Last week I was in my local Morrisons paying for a small amount of shopping at a self-service checkout. As a regular user of Google Pay/Wallet, I instinctively went to pay for the shopping with this, only to have the card terminal do the 'three bongs' error noise. Thinking I might have just closed the app too soon or done something silly, I tried it again, only to have the terminal make the same error noise. Several more attempts later with no success, I take my bank card and tap that for the contactless payment, which succeeded immediately. In the process of doing all this, I observed another customer having the same problem when trying to use an app on their phone to pay (couldn't say if it was also Google Pay/Wallet or Apple Pay), and also resorting to their physical bank card, thus indicating to me the possibility that there was an issue with Google Pay/Wallet.

Had I not had my physical card with me I would have had to do the 'walk of shame', leaving the shopping behind and walking out the store with nothing.

The one place I find I have problems these days is Stagecoach buses. Hopefully their planned ticket machine replacement will solve this.

 

[DerekC]

In many cases that wouldn't stop people paying by card since the portable card terminals are battery powered and many can connect directly to the 4G/5G mobile network.

Curiously I had a repeat of the same experience as related in post#54 today in a different pub in West Dorset. The power went off after we had ordered food. Fortunately for us they had a gas hob and the roast beef and potatoes were already done, so we did get our lunch! (I am partial to a traditional Sunday lunch occasionally). When it came to paying the portable terminal was indeed battery powered, but the wifi was down and the pub is in a 4G/5G dead spot in a deep valley, so it didn't work. Enter Mrs C with her emergency cash again. Others were being given the pub's bank details and trusted to pay when they got home.

Once again the fragility of our technology dependence was demonstrated in a small way. And a little emergency cash is not a bad idea, especially if you live or are going on holiday in a rural area.

 

[zero]

According to Google: "Before departure, wealthy tourists deposited large lump sums or arranged credit with a home bank (such as a reputable London bank). The bank provided a formal letter of credit or introduction addressed to foreign merchant-banker "correspondents" in major European hubs like Paris, Venice, Florence, and Rome"

Fascinating. I’d never thought of the financial aspects of the grand tour.

In 1890 an American journalist attempted to recreate the fictional journey of Phileas Fogg in real life. According to Wikipedia sources (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Around_the_World_in_Seventy-Two_Days),

She carried most of her money (£200 in English bank notes and gold in total as well as some American currency)[2] in a bag tied around her neck.[3]

 

[Russel]

My Mum's local chippie (in Oxford) actually has a sign saying they prefer payment by cash! Which is fine by me......

Yeah, this doesn't make sense to me, I experienced the same at an Ice Cream shop in Bridlington, they had a card machine but asked on each occasion that I visited if I had cash and each occasion I said no...

Now, I know there is a small charge by the provider for taking card payments, but handling cash isn't free either and that's before you take into account the additional security risks involved handling cash...

My conclusion was that they were trying to avoid something, I just can't quite put my finger on what that may be.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yeah, this doesn't make sense to me, I experienced the same at an Ice Cream shop in Bridlington, they had a card machine but asked on each occasion that I visited if I had cash and each occasion I said no...

Now, I know there is a small charge by the provider for taking card payments, but handling cash isn't free either and that's before you take into account the additional security risks involved handling cash...

My conclusion was that they were trying to avoid something, I just can't quite put my finger on what that may be.

Small trader I know has a real beef with the card charges even if they are modest.
I’m sure he’s not up to anything dodgy.
Asks his regular customers to pay by bank transfer or cash. Prefers the former.
I’m sure some that some who just want cash are seeking to avoid scrutiny however.