TfW class 398 Stadler Citylink tram trains

[CapitalStar378]

Nation.Cymru associate editor Martin Shipton just published a piece on the 398s.

https://nation.cymru/news/concern-as-further-delays-hit-roll-out-of-tram-trains/

TfW saying that they're brand new trains is questionable since many have been delivered a few years ago.

It's normal these days for new fleets to take a long time to bed in but there seems something up with TfW's story with the 398s, too much noise.

 

[Coleridge]

Two things stand out in that story.

TfW refused an FOI request for the reasons why the trains had not been put into service because the information isn't all held in one place and finding it would take too long and cost too much. (You'd think there'd be a high-level report on someone's desk detailing the issues with, and status of, each unit.)

Only 42 drivers have been trained to operate the 398s, with 291 yet to be trained. (How many drivers would need to be trained in order for the units to be introduced on the TAM lines? TfW said that that would happen in the summer.)

 

[positron]

Only 42 drivers by the 11th of August, given it's now the 25th of September that's quite outdated. Admittedly even at that date that is quite a lack of drivers trained.

 

[35B]

Two things stand out in that story.

TfW refused an FOI request for the reasons why the trains had not been put into service because the information isn't all held in one place and finding it would take too long and cost too much. (You'd think there'd be a high-level report on someone's desk detailing the issues with, and status of, each unit.)

Only 42 drivers have been trained to operate the 398s, with 291 yet to be trained. (How many drivers would need to be trained in order for the units to be introduced on the TAM lines? TfW said that that would happen in the summer.)

TfW’s justification for refusal is artfully worded, and I suspect open to challenge. They appear to be responding to a question about the fleet with an answer about the detailed records for each unit.

That suggests that they would prefer not to undergo much scrutiny on the matter

 

[Cardiff123]

The most public scrutiny that TfW and Welsh Government will get on the 398s will likely come from the new Economy, Energy and Connectivity commitee of the new Senedd. I imagine both Deputy Minister for Transport Mark Hooper and TfW CEO James Price will appear to give evidence to it at some point this autumn.

It looks like there will be a scrutiny session of the Transport Minister on 7 October.

You can keep an eye on future and past agendas here

https://business.senedd.wales/ieListMeetings.aspx?CommitteeId=982

 

[Envoy]

Now WalesonLine have picked up the story on the Class 398 issues:> https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wales-paid-millions-trains-people-34673693

"Brand new tram-trains which have cost Wales millions and were supposed to be ready to use last year are still not ready to be rolled out, it has been confirmed."

 

[Cardiff123]

Now WalesonLine have picked up the story on the Class 398 issues:> https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wales-paid-millions-trains-people-34673693

So has a full roll out for May 2027 already slipped to "Summer 2027"?

Better start putting the remaining 150s through their C6's...........

 

[Coleridge]

Now WalesonLine have picked up the story on the Class 398 issues:> https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/wales-paid-millions-trains-people-34673693

That story quotes a TfW spokesman as saying that the class 398 tram trains are expected to return to service "in the next few weeks". That probably means 2027 in TfW-speak.

 

[Markdvdman]

It is utterly shocking really! 2027 summer time when they were meant to be 2023! To use the new train issue is a joke they are not new!!! It is tragic really! Ah well it is what it is I hope they sort it I really do!

 

[Peter Sarf]

It is utterly shocking really! 2027 summer time when they were meant to be 2023! To use the new train issue is a joke they are not new!!! It is tragic really! Ah well it is what it is I hope they sort it I really do!

Trouble is 2023 to 2027 in this day and age is still "new" judging by other fleet introductions.

Also having a fleet temporarily grounded early on in its life (we are only 1/3rd introduced) is not unheard of. It really is an indication of how roll outs of new fleets goes these days and I am staggered that it is the new normal. But to be expected with all the cost-cutting, bespoke and over complicated technology involved. I suppose also a more safety conscious approach than in previous decades.

We will have to wait and see if it is more serious. But in the meantime the information vacuum from TfW will lead to more speculation.

 

[Markdvdman]

The biggest problem in all of this is the silence from TFW. If they kept us open to the issues all the way, we would be disappointed but understanding! It is the not knowing is the biggest problem!

 

[CapitalStar378]

The biggest problem in all of this is the silence from TFW. If they kept us open to the issues all the way, we would be disappointed but understanding! It is the not knowing is the biggest problem!

All of this secret squirrel stuff is really frustrating, especially as TfW is a government owned organisation. Why they can't just be open and honest is beyond me. Keeping everything shrouded in secrecy is not the right approach and suggests there's always something to hide.

 

[nigelsporne]

I agree with the comment above.
These units have been in the country some time and they still appear to have problems with them and a probable driver experience shortage.
Having said that I experienced the 398s during the summer and I was impressed. Whether they are the right units for the job has been discussed at length. Perhaps peoples perceptions may be clouded slightly by the fact that we are not used to this type of unit doing this type of work. If the 398s went onto street running it may be different. I cannot see this happening to any great extent for at least 20 years judging by what has happened elsewhere.
In my view the 398s would be better suited to short journeys, say the one they do now plus Coryton and Caerphilly. The longer journeys could be Flirts with possibly missing out some of the stops nearer Cardiff to help speed up the trip.
I also agree with the comment up thread on the potential problems with the intermittent wiring may have on the electrics and the battery. I am no expert on this though.
I shall follow this thread with interest to hear what those with more knowledge have to add.

 

[positron]

I don't think it's unfair to call these new trains, they've not even all been delivered yet and they always were going to end up being delivered early.

Nor do I think everyone would actually be more understanding if TfW were fully transparent. You've got to remember these weren't even fully chosen by Welsh government they were part of a bid by private operators. It's possible they were genuinely the best of a bad bunch of bids. But people still blame it on the government.

I do think the Welsh government would have a better time defending their choice if extending to Hirwaun was ready to go and benefited from line of sight, and they had other possible extensions even close to planning stage like Treherbert to Tynewydd.

Right now it's a thing of choosing tram trains and then only Cardiff getting the tram bit (I know it's not that simple but that's how people see it).

 

[John R]

and they had other possible extensions even close to planning stage like Treherbert to Tynewydd.

Interesting. I don’t think I’ve ever heard Tynewydd (or Blaenrhondda) mentioned as a possible extension. Yet I’ve thought for a long time it would be a useful extension, especially if the Rhondda Tunnel Society could eventually get the tunnel reopened, as it would help attract tourism to it.

 

[Cardiff123]

TfW have not helped themselves by announcing and then re-announcing entry into service dates for the last 3 to 4 years. Then when those dates are not met and nothing happens, they go silent.
Take the announcement in February, where Eluned Morgan and James Price announced in the Taffs Well Depot that the 398s were in the final phase of testing and would be in passenger service by the Spring. It was obviously a political stunt before the Senedd election, and we've now found out that the recent Cardiff Bay to Pontypridd services were "passenger testing", not a full entry into service.

It wouldn't matter so much if the 398s entering service wasn't so crucial to triggering the cascades of the 756s and 231s to boost capacity and keep services running on the rest of the network in South Wales.

 

[Caaardiff]

TfW have not helped themselves by announcing and then re-announcing entry into service dates for the last 3 to 4 years. Then when those dates are not met and nothing happens, they go silent.
Take the announcement in February, where Eluned Morgan and James Price announced in the Taffs Well Depot that the 398s were in the final phase of testing and would be in passenger service by the Spring. It was obviously a political stunt before the Senedd election, and we've now found out that the recent Cardiff Bay to Pontypridd services were "passenger testing", not a full entry into service.

It wouldn't matter so much if the 398s entering service wasn't so crucial to triggering the cascades of the 756s and 231s to boost capacity and keep services running on the rest of the network in South Wales.

I'm not even sure what people expect anymore on this forum. TFW have tried to get these things in service, but quite clearly its going horribly wrong. But what exactly could have been done better? Even if they had come into service years ago, they still would've had these software problems. Yes they would have had more time to iron them out but name a fleet introduction that has gone to plan in the UK?

Up until this brake issue, their introduction had been going well.

If they hadn't made announcements about expected introduction dates everyone would've been up in arms about the silence. Then you've got people complaining they aren't communicating enough. They cant win. Some people just can't be pleased.

I don't think it's unfair to call these new trains, they've not even all been delivered yet and they always were going to end up being delivered early.

Nor do I think everyone would actually be more understanding if TfW were fully transparent. You've got to remember these weren't even fully chosen by Welsh government they were part of a bid by private operators. It's possible they were genuinely the best of a bad bunch of bids. But people still blame it on the government.

Spot on.

 

[Tom125]

I would suggest TfW don’t want too much scrutiny of a “brake issue” because that is likely to cause a loss of confidence from the travelling passenger. Therefor hiding behind the vagaries of “software issues” and staying silent is probably best for them until the information is forced out by the press…Brake issues hardly inspire confidence for the public to give up their cars and travel by train, but brake issues certainly will worry the public into not travelling by train! Remember the average passenger pays no attention what so ever to the class of train they travel on.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Are we sure there are actually brake issues or is it just what some are suggesting ?.

Again - possibly an information vacuum naturally being filled by conjecture.

 

[Coleridge]

Up until this brake issue, their introduction had been going well.

I don't think that's true at all. TfW has missed several self-imposed milestones, is years behind schedule, and we know from insiders that there have been a significant number of issues behind the scenes.

I can't help feeling that TfW is simply overwhelmed and/or out of its depth, having introduced so many new types of unit at the same time, and has not been able to carry out adequate testing.

Let's not forget that these units were in scheduled passenger service for several weeks before they were withdrawn. We don't know what specific issue(s) led to the withdrawal, but they were clearly serious enough to cause the entire fleet to be taken out of service until further notice. Were passengers at risk?

Stadler delivered the first of a fleet of brand-new units to RhB (in Switzerland) in June 2019. They were introduced to passenger in service 12 months later, and have never had to be withdrawn on account of a technical defect or for any other reason. What is so different? Is it simply Swiss precision and attention to detail vs. the Welsh "oh, that'll do" attitude?

 

[AdamWW]

Stadler delivered the first of a fleet of brand-new units to RhB (in Switzerland) in June 2019. They were introduced to passenger in service 12 months later, and have never had to be withdrawn on account of a technical defect or for any other reason. What is so different? Is it simply Swiss precision and attention to detail vs. the Welsh "oh, that'll do" attitude?

Which part of Stadler? I believe the 398s are made by a company which Stadler acquired.

The TfW FLIRTs didn't have anything like the trouble the 398s are having.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't think that's true at all. TfW has missed several self-imposed milestones, is years behind schedule, and we know from insiders that there have been a significant number of issues behind the scenes.

I think the big difference here is if we look at progress once the clock started ticking - when the first 398 came into service.

Worth bearing in mind that the infrastructure was not ready for the 398s when the 398s were first getting delivered. This may or may not have been planned as TfW might have expected to rely on testing away from the actual lines where they will end up. Testing is never as good as actual contact with passengers on the actual lines of use.

I can't help feeling that TfW is simply overwhelmed and/or out of its depth, having introduced so many new types of unit at the same time, and has not been able to carry out adequate testing.

Yes. We must not forget that TfW has taken a lot on. we cannot complain about the ambition and the money spent. But I agree to many changes too close together. I suspect the 398s took a back seat while introduction of 197s, then 231 and finally 756s happened. Really the 398s have come after those first three introductions I suppose.

Let's not forget that these units were in scheduled passenger service for several weeks before they were withdrawn. We don't know what specific issue(s) led to the withdrawal, but they were clearly serious enough to cause the entire fleet to be taken out of service until further notice. Were passengers at risk?

It is not totally unheard of for trains to get grounded part way through a fleet introduction.

Stadler delivered the first of a fleet of brand-new units to RhB (in Switzerland) in June 2019. They were introduced to passenger in service 12 months later, and have never had to be withdrawn on account of a technical defect or for any other reason. What is so different? Is it simply Swiss precision and attention to detail vs. the Welsh "oh, that'll do" attitude?

I suspect the infrastructure was better - the Swiss surely would not partake of discontinuous electrification ?. In fact do the Swiss actually have any railway lines left to electrify !.

 

[Coleridge]

I think the big difference here is if we look at progress once the clock started ticking - when the first 398 came into service.

If the clock only started ticking when things finally started going well, then, yes, the project has been moderately successful.

I suspect the infrastructure was better - the Swiss surely would not partake of discontinuous electrification ?. In fact do the Swiss actually have any railway lines left to electrify !

80% of the Swiss rail network was electrified by the start of WWII, and the remainder by the end of the 1960s. Certainly, by the time I first visited the country, in 1971, it was all electrified.

 

[ic31420]

It is utterly shocking really! 2027 summer time when they were meant to be 2023! To use the new train issue is a joke they are not new!!! It is tragic really! Ah well it is what it is I hope they sort it I really do!

Another way of looking at it is 10% of their life parked up doing nothing. (Assuming 40yr proposed service life)

10% of life 10% of value wasted.

I again question how much harm has been done to them sitting around idle albeit perhaps in better conditions than the 175s.

Condensation, hardening of seals etc, sticktion, cold and so on.

 

[tfw756rider]

Which part of Stadler? I believe the 398s are made by a company which Stadler acquired.

The TfW FLIRTs didn't have anything like the trouble the 398s are having.

Yes - the Spanish part of Stadler, formerly Vossloh España of Valencia.

The 399s (and 68s) seem to work fine though...

 

[SWML9102]

No 398s today. TfW sevices status page not yet updated with new date of expected end to changes. At least the Bay shuttle continues at 4tph.

 

[CapitalStar378]

No 398s today. TfW sevices status page not yet updated with new date of expected end to changes. At least the Bay shuttle continues at 4tph.

TfW have said they'll be back in service 'in the next few weeks' so that could be November quite easily.

 

[AdamWW]

I'm not even sure what people expect anymore on this forum.

If they hadn't made announcements about expected introduction dates everyone would've been up in arms about the silence. Then you've got people complaining they aren't communicating enough. They cant win. Some people just can't be pleased.

No that's true but I genuinely think that TfW could communicate quite a bit better.

I can see the temptation of only ever giving good news but it doesn't look good to me when they announce targets then don't even acknowledge that they have been missed never mind giving an explanation.

It is evident that the fleet has been grounded but their web site just says the reason is "more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time between Pontypridd (PPD) and Cardiff Bay"

Given that they rarely explain anything, it's very easy to conclude that the problem is poor management when in fact there may be a good reason for what look like bad decisions.

 

[Caaardiff]

No that's true but I genuinely think that TfW could communicate quite a bit better.

I can see the temptation of only ever giving good news but it doesn't look good to me when they announce targets then don't even acknowledge that they have been missed never mind giving an explanation.

It is evident that the fleet has been grounded but their web site just says the reason is "more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time between Pontypridd (PPD) and Cardiff Bay"

Given that they rarely explain anything, it's very easy to conclude that the problem is poor management when in fact there may be a good reason for what look like bad decisions.

What company would realistically do that though? No company likes to give out negative PR on itself.

Most people don't want to know the finite details, they just want a train to turn up.

 

[Towers]

What company would realistically do that though? No company likes to give out negative PR on itself.

Most people don't want to know the finite details, they just want a train to turn up.

Or indeed a tram…