PFN not issued on the spot

[delkhasteh]

Hi all,

Hope you are well and thanks for reading.

I was travelling between Waddon and Wallington on Southern (GTR) when I presented an oyster card which did not tap in at Waddon Station.

In the encounter with the revenue inspection staff on the train, he asked me for my residency and name which I provided him with my ID. He then stated that I 'would receive a letter in my post', which I assumed would be a Notice of Intention to Prosecute after reading on the forum.

However, just yesterday I received a letter which stated that I had an unpaid fine. The letter is attached below. I have not received any correspondence before this letter also.

I have paid the fine already which is unfortunate. But I am still trying to appeal through Penalty Services. I am drafting a response below:

Dear Sir/Madam,


Reference: x

I am writing in response to a letter dated 21 September 2026 regarding a Penalty Fare Notice (PFN) of the reference above.

I understand that I am in the wrong and I apologise for my actions. However, I am writing on the grounds of appeal that I did not receive a PFN on the spot by my Revenue Protectcion Officer on the 26 August 2026 for my actions. Therefore, I was unable to pay the PFN within the 21 day mark. I had also not received any letter on email correspondence prior to the letter dated 21 September 2026.

I also understand that the appeal window is within 21 days. However, I would be grateful if you could consider this case as I have only received the letter on the 25 September, which is after the 21 day mark.

I apologise again for my actions and respectfully ask that you consider my appeal.

Yours sincerely,
My name



Thank you all for your help in advance again.

 

[Trainman40083]

Novel spelling of "received" in the Southern letter.

 

[6Gman]

This is a curious one which raises interesting issues.

Basically if the guard/revenue protection inspector says they issued a Penalty Fare notice and the passenger says they didn't how can the truth be established?

 

[WesternLancer]

So by obtaining the OPs residency permit to look at (some form of Home Office document? which I would suggest the OP is under no obligation to carry around with them and might in fact be safer to not carry around with them to prevent loss) it is suggested that the staff member then used that to get ID details and issued a Penalty Fare without informing the passenger of what they were doing.

If true that is presumably a significant breach of process? Do penalty fare experts here know if that’s the case.

If so would the best way forward be to raise a formal complaint with GTR about what happened with a view to having the Penalty cancelled and the money paid refunded?

As the op has paid the sum demanded I can’t see anything to lose by doing that.

I suspect the actual appeal process won’t work because the appeal assessor will simply say that it has not been appealed within the 21 day period. Or it would need to go stage 3 appeal for any chance of getting anywhere.

Or could this be one to raise with London Travelwatch?

 

[Swedenorer]

I assumed that residency was a typo for residence.

I think the OP's letter says all it needs to at this stage. I know it's only their word but you never know, this member of staff may be known internally for this sort of slip. And the OP at least admits they would have paid the PFN within the 21 days if they'd been issued with one. I wouldn't send it to Penalty Services though I'd send it to GTR Customer Services straight away.

 

[sennen47]

I'm no expert but at a minimum I think you should be chasing to get £50 refunded, as you say if it had been issued correctly and handed to you at the time you would've paid it in full at the reduced (£53.50) rate.

Other people will hopefully chime in with advice on if its possible to get the whole thing squashed.

 

[delkhasteh]

So by obtaining the OPs residency permit to look at (some form of Home Office document? which I would suggest the OP is under no obligation to carry around with them and might in fact be safer to not carry around with them to prevent loss) it is suggested that the staff member then used that to get ID details and issued a Penalty Fare without informing the passenger of what they were doing.

If true that is presumably a significant breach of process? Do penalty fare experts here know if that’s the case.

If so would the best way forward be to raise a formal complaint with GTR about what happened with a view to having the Penalty cancelled and the money paid refunded?

As the op has paid the sum demanded I can’t see anything to lose by doing that.

I suspect the actual appeal process won’t work because the appeal assessor will simply say that it has not been appealed within the 21 day period. Or it would need to go stage 3 appeal for any chance of getting anywhere.

Or could this be one to raise with London Travelwatch?

Apologies. I mean residence, my address to send letters to.

I do understand that it is just my word. But I will try to elaborate a little more clearly the situation which occurred below.

My Oyster card was checked which did not tap in at Waddon Station.
As a result, the RPO asked me to provide a name and address, which I did, by providing my drivers license (ID).
Name and address was noted, and I was told that I would 'receive a letter in my post'. No mention of a PFN occurred and I was handed no documents or paper.
I had not received anything in the post, until the letter dated 21 September 2026. I paid my PFN in full upon receipt of the letter, sort of in panic of not wanting the fine to escalate. I would have definitely paid the PFN earlier if I had a way to.

I also hope there is a way of verifying that I had not received a PFN, either through bodycam or CCTV footage?

From my understanding you guys are telling me to raise a formal complaint with GTR. I am happy to do that, just unsure of the process. Is it through this page?

Contact us | Thameslink

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www.thameslinkrailway.com

Thanks for your help everyone.

 

[AlterEgo]

Was the officer wearing a body cam?

 

[Haywain]

It's unlikely that CCTV will still be available a month after the incident.

 

[Watershed]

This is a curious one which raises interesting issues.

Basically if the guard/revenue protection inspector says they issued a Penalty Fare notice and the passenger says they didn't how can the truth be established?

The PF Regs state that in an appeal, any fact alleged by the passenger is deemed to be correct unless proven otherwise by the operator.

So for GTR to show that the PF was issued you'd expect to see a passenger signature on the original PF, or a record that the passenger refused to sign together with body worn footage corroborating that.

Unfortunately in this case, the OP no longer has an automatic right of appeal because it has been more than 21 days since the PF was supposedly issued. As such it is at the discretion of the appeals body whether or not they will allow an appeal.

Exceptional grounds would generally be required for this, but not having been given the PF in the first place would appear to meet these criteria in my view.

 

[Kilopylae]

How this happens is bizarre to me. If a Penalty Fare is not issued, how is it subsequently raised in the system like this?

 

[185143]

How this happens is bizarre to me. If a Penalty Fare is not issued, how is it subsequently raised in the system like this?

Noting this is a one stop journey, could it be that the OP had left the train by the time the PF has printed?

 

[Haywain]

Noting this is a one stop journey, could it be that the OP had left the train by the time the PF has printed?

Doesn't alter the fact that it should be handed to them.

 

[185143]

Doesn't alter the fact that it should be handed to them.

I fully agree. Was just speculating how it may have been issued, presumably with the OP's compliance, but not physically issued to them. The RPIs should have left the train too presumably.

 

[WesternLancer]

Apologies. I mean residence, my address to send letters to.

I do understand that it is just my word. But I will try to elaborate a little more clearly the situation which occurred below.

My Oyster card was checked which did not tap in at Waddon Station.
As a result, the RPO asked me to provide a name and address, which I did, by providing my drivers license (ID).
Name and address was noted, and I was told that I would 'receive a letter in my post'. No mention of a PFN occurred and I was handed no documents or paper.
I had not received anything in the post, until the letter dated 21 September 2026. I paid my PFN in full upon receipt of the letter, sort of in panic of not wanting the fine to escalate. I would have definitely paid the PFN earlier if I had a way to.

I also hope there is a way of verifying that I had not received a PFN, either through bodycam or CCTV footage?

From my understanding you guys are telling me to raise a formal complaint with GTR. I am happy to do that, just unsure of the process. Is it through this page?

Contact us | Thameslink

Find out how to get in touch with us at Thameslink.

www.thameslinkrailway.com

Thanks for your help everyone.

Send it to both GTR customer services and the Penalty Fare appeals body (or suitably adjusted versions of it for each organisation perhaps)?

I’d welcome others views on that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Today at 00:38 ==

I assumed that residency was a typo for residence.

Apols to the op for misunderstanding this. I thought it might be the cards that are issued to overseas students by the Home Office that many such students are required to have when studying in the uk.

Seems like ID was in fact verified against a driving licence.

Back to the matter in hand….

 

[gray1404]

I would be getting London Travel Watch involved with this one or Transport Focus.

 

[furlong]

Basically if the guard/revenue protection inspector says they issued a Penalty Fare notice and the passenger says they didn't how can the truth be established?

We've seen ones before where the timing made it obvious! Time of issue comfortably after the encounter with the passenger. Here it was 3-minute journey and the recorded departure time 10:21 matches the issue time 10:21 https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=147731323 so you can't rule out a short-cut being taken for the convenience of the inspector. Equally we know some people just toss the piece of paper away then regret this later.

 

[robbeech]

Was the officer wearing a body cam?

It's unlikely that CCTV will still be available a month after the incident.

Either way it’s unlikely relevant as all this footage is only to be used to benefit the railway (unless requested by the police or by the courts) so if the footage does exist and shows the railway to be in the wrong it simply won’t be made available.

 

[AlterEgo]

Either way it’s unlikely relevant as all this footage is only to be used to benefit the railway (unless requested by the police or by the courts) so if the footage does exist and shows the railway to be in the wrong it simply won’t be made available.

Are you suggesting the TOC would simply lie about its existence? That's not been the experience we've had on the forum so far, we've seen plenty of it disclosed under GDPR.

 

[robbeech]

Are you suggesting the TOC would simply lie about its existence? That's not been the experience we've had on the forum so far, we've seen plenty of it disclosed under GDPR.

I’m suggesting they wouldn’t offer it unless they were made to. This isn’t just a railway thing at all, what is essentially private cctv and similar footage is used for the benefit of the owners of the infrastructure. Nobody is going to offer it if it shows them in a bad light.

 

[AlterEgo]

So it will be made available then, if you do a Subject Access Request.

 

[Haywain]

I’m suggesting they wouldn’t offer it unless they were made to. This isn’t just a railway thing at all, what is essentially private cctv and similar footage is used for the benefit of the owners of the infrastructure. Nobody is going to offer it if it shows them in a bad light.

If nobody asks for it they won't have the faintest idea what light it shows them in.

 

[WesternLancer]

It would seem wise to submit a request for any bodywork or other video of the incident.
You might expect at least the bodywork to be kept for however long an appeal process might take which could be right through to stage 3

 

[Haywain]

You might expect at least the bodywork to be kept for however long an appeal process might take which could be right through to stage 3

Body worn video is generally only activated and recorded if the wearer feels under threat. If it's not been recorded - and the OP would be told if it was being recorded - there is nothing to save. The OP can submit a Subject Access Request for any CCTV footage from the on-train CCTV but it is likely that at this stage that has been overwritten/deleted.

 

[island]

The PF Regs state that in an appeal, any fact alleged by the passenger is deemed to be correct unless proven otherwise by the operator.

So for GTR to show that the PF was issued you'd expect to see a passenger signature on the original PF, or a record that the passenger refused to sign together with body worn footage corroborating that.

Unfortunately in this case, the OP no longer has an automatic right of appeal because it has been more than 21 days since the PF was supposedly issued. As such it is at the discretion of the appeals body whether or not they will allow an appeal.

Exceptional grounds would generally be required for this, but not having been given the PF in the first place would appear to meet these criteria in my view.

I agree with this summary.

 

[WesternLancer]

Body worn video is generally only activated and recorded if the wearer feels under threat. If it's not been recorded - and the OP would be told if it was being recorded - there is nothing to save. The OP can submit a Subject Access Request for any CCTV footage from the on-train CCTV but it is likely that at this stage that has been overwritten/deleted.

Thanks for clarifying. Presumably still worth asking just in case.
Just a case of making the request via the GTR access request form I assume.

 

[gray1404]

Do some stuff think, incorrectly, if they can't give a penalty fare notice out at the time then the passenger will get a letter reminding them to pay? I fear this is what's going on here and they totally miss the point about it not being valid unless issued correctly at the time and also the £50 discount.

 

[Haywain]

Do some stuff think, incorrectly, if they can't give a penalty fare notice out at the time then the passenger will get a letter reminding them to pay? I fear this is what's going on here and they totally miss the point about it not being valid unless issued correctly at the time and also the £50 discount.

Whether they do or not is if no assistance to the OP, who can only deal with the facts of the matter.