Getting the most out of the new Alstom units for TPE?

[Bletchleyite]

A fully level floor (as quoted above and in Modern Railways) is a big benefit over potential competitors such as Stadler's existing FLIRT derivative, although they ought to be well capable of producing that too.

How have they achieved that? Is it totally flat, or are seats near the end on plinths with the aisle remaining flat? Small wheels I guess?

There may also be a preference in some quarters for non-articulated units.

24m vehicles do seem pretty optimal for the UK - the short vehicles used by articulated units have kludgy compromises such as needing those obstructive of view escape windows if you only have one door (though these have them on the end vehicles too).

I think there's also a preference for non-articulated due to lower axle loadings.

 

[NCT]

I'm not sure if the Adessia UK is explicitly stated as having a fully level floor. Pretty sure seats over bogies are on platforms, with a (probably 'indiscernible') ramp.

At the end of the day rolling stock manufacturers want to offer what their customers want. For a multitude of reasons UK operators and Network Rail like 20-25m vehicles without Jacob bogies. Reasons include axle weights and door layouts. On UK FLIRTs two doors per carriage are too many but one door not enough. It would be foolish for any manufacturers to say 'Jacob bogies or goodbye'.

Besides, even though Derby has been bought by Alstom, it feels as though it's still being given quite a bit of autonomy as a full-competency design + manufacturing site. It's been allowed to develop the next generation product from the Aventra platform. All Alstom has done is stuck the Adessia label on it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure if the Adessia UK is explicitly stated as having a fully level floor.

While I've recycled it now I've read it so can't provide an exact quote, an interview with someone from TPE in this month's Modern Railways did explicitly state that, though I guess a fully level corridor with some seats on plinths would technically comply. The article doesn't seem to be on their website unfortunately.

At the end of the day rolling stock manufacturers want to offer what their customers want. For a multitude of reasons UK operators and Network Rail like 20-25m vehicles without Jacob bogies. Reasons include axle weights and door layouts. On UK FLIRTs two doors per carriage are too many but one door not enough. It would be foolish for any manufacturers to say 'Jacob bogies or goodbye'.

Not just a UK thing anyway. The Stadler FLIRT Nordic has traditional 26.4m bogied vehicles, just based on the FLIRT standard component set.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm not sure if the Adessia UK is explicitly stated as having a fully level floor. Pretty sure seats over bogies are on platforms, with a (probably 'indiscernible') ramp.

Modern Railways quotes Alstom MD Rob Whyte:

We've actually lowered the floor - it's a fully flat floor throughout the train.

Make of that what you will.

 

[CapabilityB]

How have they achieved that? Is it totally flat, or are seats near the end on plinths with the aisle remaining flat? Small wheels I guess?



24m vehicles do seem pretty optimal for the UK - the short vehicles used by articulated units have kludgy compromises such as needing those obstructive of view escape windows if you only have one door (though these have them on the end vehicles too).

I think there's also a preference for non-articulated due to lower axle loadings.

Some seats on plinths according to the mock-up.

 

[brad465]

The latest RAIL magazine has dropped and something I don't think has been covered here (or has but I've missed it) is that they report a full charge can be obtained in 30 minutes, but if needed "sometimes quicker if need be". This should mean almost all services can leave the termini with charging outposts on a full charge, especially if there is still a decent load on arrival from the west.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Some seats on plinths according to the mock-up.

A ramp in the aisle is visible at 0:45 in the video accompanying the Alstom press release.

 

[Nottingham59]

The latest RAIL magazine has dropped and something I don't think has been covered here (or has but I've missed it) is that they report a full charge can be obtained in 30 minutes, but if needed "sometimes quicker if need be". This should mean almost all services can leave the termini with charging outposts on a full charge, especially if there is still a decent load on arrival from the west.

That's good news. I don't know what battery chemistry is to be used, but if they can take a full charge in 30 minutes then I would expect that they could take charge in the mid-range, say 20% to 80%, in less than 15.

And you don't need to leave termini with a full charge. You only need enough to get back onto the wires, plus a reserve.

 

[hwl]

That's good news. I don't know what battery chemistry is to be used, but if they can take a full charge in 30 minutes then I would expect that they could take charge in the mid-range, say 20% to 80%, in less than 15.

And you don't need to leave termini with a full charge. You only need enough to get back onto the wires, plus a reserve.

NMC see this post on the previous page:
#478 https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-new-alstom-units-for-tpe.307056/post-7958096

The battery charge will be more than fast enough in practice because very liitle depth of charge (~25 - ~45% depending on which of the 3 routes) is used per leg. With the long seaside layovers the C rate can be kept fairly low if the arriving state of charge is high to optimise battery health. Alstom are putting a lot of work into being kind to the batteries.

 

[eldomtom2]

Alstom are putting a lot of work into being kind to the batteries.

That's very interesting - something to keep in mind when it comes to discussing how to use BEMUs, since clearly anything that places too much strain on the batteries is something that the railway considers should be avoided.

 

[Snow1964]

How have they achieved that? Is it totally flat, or are seats near the end on plinths with the aisle remaining flat? Small wheels I guess?

I'm not sure if the Adessia UK is explicitly stated as having a fully level floor. Pretty sure seats over bogies are on platforms, with a (probably 'indiscernible') ramp.

The Alstom train Intercity train for Italy, at InnoTrans actually has level gangway and double height plinth over the bogies. The doors and most seats are in a flat area, the next seat is raised facing over other seats, then row after appears even higher. Possibly because Italy uses the lower 500mm platform height

There is a short video on this link that hopefully illustrates it better.

Alstom on Instagram: "Italian trains & Italian coffee, what more could you ask for? ☕ We sat down with Francesco Oliviero, Engineering Management & Planning for Trenitalia’s Intercity, to discover the new Coradia Stream regional train, unveiled with

301 likes, 8 comments - alstom on September 26, 2026: "Italian trains & Italian coffee, what more could you ask for? ☕ We sat down with Francesco Oliviero, Engineering Management & Planning for Trenitalia’s Intercity, to discover the new Coradia Stream regional train, unveiled with Trenitalia...

www.instagram.com

I do like the comment about big windows because some people like to look at the landscape, something that often deemed unimportant in UK

 

[172007]

The long delivery time has had me thinking. It would be nice for Alstom fo fully test a protype new unit and iron out issues.

If / when the Midland Rail Hub is finished, 2032 date is expected at the moment then there will be a rolling stock requirement. If extra services from B'ham Moor Street to Cardiff, Swindon and the East Midlands happen then these TPE proposed units or a variant would seem ideal and would need to be delivered sooner. It would answer why there is such a long lead time for TPE delivery.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do like the comment about big windows because some people like to look at the landscape, something that often deemed unimportant in UK

One of the things I love about the Aventra is the massive windows and ample overhead racks. Post Class 170 there were lots of rumours that neither were possible due to safety regs, and it's great to see this proven to be nonsense.

It does seem some aspects of what TPE were claiming may be a bit stretching the truth though - the ramps noted above, plus the claim I saw that seats were window aligned (as they are on the 397) seems untrue - most of Standard is but that video shows a couple of rows not, and a fairly large proportion of First Class not. Given that these units seem to have varying window spacings at different ends of the driving vehicles it is surprising they haven't done the first class aligned too with a different window layout as was traditional prior to the Mk3.

 

[hwl]

That's very interesting - something to keep in mind when it comes to discussing how to use BEMUs, since clearly anything that places too much strain on the batteries is something that the railway considers should be avoided.

"Railway" apart from power supply engineers...
Some frequently hope battery can solve some of their issues but batteries would often get trashed quickly doing this. Battery is not a miracle cure to avoid tackling all power supply issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some frequently hope battery can solve some of their issues but batteries would often get trashed quickly doing this.

Evidence, please? In your answer please give reference to the same issue occurring with modern BEV cars and with trains in other countries. Including references to the Nissan Leaf will result in marks deducted as it's well known that the cause of poor battery life on these is the lack of active battery conditioning (cooling, mostly) which is fitted to pretty much every lithium battery powered vehicle of any kind built since those.

I think frankly you are going to struggle as no such evidence exists because it simply does not happen. When properly conditioned large lithium batteries last extremely well.

Battery is not a miracle cure to avoid tackling all power supply issues.

It's not but there are a LOT of good use-cases for it. It's no use for the Far North Line, but it certainly would be of use for the very large number of services where you have a long trunk under 25kV and then a shorter extension without, of which TPE will have several routes. See also Barrow/Windermere, Sunderland, Bradford, Buxton and many others.

 

[James90012]

I'm not clear what this means for the TPE 802s.

Presumably they will be on the 125mph East Coast services, but those are Newcastle to Liverpool and Manchester Airport so will be fully under the wires (I think) by the time these trains arrive?

 

[absolutelymilk]

I'm not clear what this means for the TPE 802s.

Presumably they will be on the 125mph East Coast services, but those are Newcastle to Liverpool and Manchester Airport so will be fully under the wires (I think) by the time these trains arrive

Follow-on order for 397s and then move the 802s to Cross-Country?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm not clear what this means for the TPE 802s.
Presumably they will be on the 125mph East Coast services, but those are Newcastle to Liverpool and Manchester Airport so will be fully under the wires (I think) by the time these trains arrive?

Under GBR you'd expect new (cheaper) EMUs to be ordered for that route, with the 802s cascaded to another deserving bi-mode route (eg Manchester-Cardiff, or most XC routes).
But the current TOC-contract regime doesn't help cascading of this sort.
GBR leasing/ownership should improve the capability to work across the wider network.

 

[3RDGEN]

I'm not clear what this means for the TPE 802s.

Presumably they will be on the 125mph East Coast services, but those are Newcastle to Liverpool and Manchester Airport so will be fully under the wires (I think) by the time these trains arrive?

Remain as is for the Newcastle services, the diesel will be used on the booked diversion routes which aren't being electrified.

 

[Fokx]

I'm not clear what this means for the TPE 802s.

Presumably they will be on the 125mph East Coast services, but those are Newcastle to Liverpool and Manchester Airport so will be fully under the wires (I think) by the time these trains arrive?

Remaining on the Newcastle runs

Newcastle to Liverpool will require 7 units
Newcastle to Airport will require 7 units

Leaves 5 units for the Newcastle - Edinburgh and maintenance spares

 

[Bald Rick]

Evidence, please? In your answer please give reference to the same issue occurring with modern BEV cars and with trains in other countries. Including references to the Nissan Leaf will result in marks deducted as it's well known that the cause of poor battery life on these is the lack of active battery conditioning (cooling, mostly) which is fitted to pretty much every lithium battery powered vehicle of any kind built since those.

I think frankly you are going to struggle as no such evidence exists because it simply does not happen. When properly conditioned large lithium batteries last extremely well.

In support of @hwl, I think he means that repeated and frequent charge / discharge cycling of lithium-ion batteries, either on board or in the lineside traction system, will cause quicker degradation than seen in automotive. Even the highest mileage EVs will rarely do a full charge cycle more than once a day on average; that implies 50k miles pa or more. For trains doing the duty cycles we’ll see on TPE, Northern, GWR etc you could easily be seeing 4-10 full cycles a day, which will need very careful management. And preferably LFP or LiTO chemistry.

I speak as (possibly) the forum member who has been advocating BEMUs for the longest amount of time, to the extent that many of you must be sick of me on this subject !

 

[Grumpy]

I'm not clear what this means for the TPE 802s.

What they should be doing is running the 802s to Hull/Saltburn/Scarborough. Newcastle trains only need to be simple, relatively uncomplicated, EMU's. No need to buy any BEMU's for TPE. As pointed out by Richard Bowker they are costing nearly £2m per vehicle (for 145 vehicles) more than recent Elizabeth line vehicles. Together with all the ongoing costs of trailing extra weight around, more complicated maintenance/ energy consumption etc.
This is TPE that bought the 397-probably the worst riding Inter City vehicles since the early mk1s-and the simlarly rough and seemingly unnecessary Nova 3s.

 

[Fokx]

No need to buy any BEMU's for TPE

That actually wrong as there's a large chunk of Mossley that isn't being electrified, and also allows for services to use diversion routes such as Calder Valley and via Methley when required.

 

[edwin_m]

That actually wrong as there's a large chunk of Mossley that isn't being electrified

As far as I know that's only the bit past the cottages, on the Up (downhill) line only, and the idea is to coast through this section.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That actually wrong as there's a large chunk of Mossley that isn't being electrified, and also allows for services to use diversion routes such as Calder Valley and via Methley when required.

The GBR imperative (by the time TRU is finished) will be to replace pure diesel services by cascaded bi-modes.
Diversionary routes have never counted in major fleet purchases, and don't sway business cases.
In any case, TP North should not need many diversions when TRU is done.
The Newcastle-Edinburgh local service is also a complete waste of 802 capability.

 

[8ace]

Isn't some diesel running under the wires required NCL-EDB due to insufficient power supply? (Maybe the 800s on Aberdeen/Inverness services take care of this though.)

 

[NCT]

Given that we are talking the mid 2030s, we really shouldn't be treating current power supply restrictions as unmovable obstacles.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Isn't some diesel running under the wires required NCL-EDB due to insufficient power supply? (Maybe the 800s on Aberdeen/Inverness services take care of this though.)

Yes the TPE 802s run on diesel (at least for part of the route) between Newcastle & Edinburgh due to insufficient power supply. Hopefully this is something that will be sorted out before the TRU is complete to allow for complete electric running from Liverpool to Edinburgh via the East Coast & TRU.

 

[speedy1]

As far as I know that's only the bit past the cottages, on the Up (downhill) line only, and the idea is to coast through this section.

TPE 802s run on diesel (at least for part of the route) between Newcastle & Edinburgh due to insufficient power supply

We are not a serious country LOL

 

[quantinghome]

It's not but there are a LOT of good use-cases for it. It's no use for the Far North Line, but it certainly would be of use for the very large number of services where you have a long trunk under 25kV and then a shorter extension without, of which TPE will have several routes. See also Barrow/Windermere, Sunderland, Bradford, Buxton and many others.

It's not just the short extensions any more. The range BEMUs are now quoted as would cover the whole unelectrified Calder Valley network, for example (maybe you'd need to extend the electrification by a few miles for robustness). Continuous electrification will only be needed where there is sustained high speed running, significant amounts of freight or where there are disproportionate network benefits. Everywhere else will get the minimum amount of OHL need to recharge batteries, located on stretches of line that are easy to electrify.